Three Wheelers - Your opinions and expertise wanted!

[Fer]

fuoriserie said:

Very true, we really need a new Lomax or JZR concept for the year 2014, maybe by using more mass produced available motorycle engines, in the 600-800cc range and exo-skeleton chassis and very simple bodywork...

Another overlooked 3wheeler by the main media, has been the Malone Skunk:
http://www.malonecar.eclipse.co.uk/purchasingkit.h...

Not sure on the Goldfish, tbh.

[Steffan]

fuoriserie said:

Steffan said:

fuoriserie said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-63A7Bwecs

The Badsey Bullet video

I thought I had seen this before and indeed see:

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2010/11/08/hemm...

It is remarkable how many of these three wheeler's are created by enthusiasts and sadly how few reach even double figures in production. For a whole variety of reasons but primarily not what the customers can either afford or want I think. The very best (my opinion) like the Grinnall and Blackjack and Ariel have their own dedicated followers and the Morgan seems to be a real niche market the Pendleton still sells and so on.

But for some years nothing has really come onto the market and been sustained by demand in the market. In the US truly recreational trikes come and go with the bigger hobby budgets there. Since the Lomax faded in the UK I cannot think of a true volume seller. Lot of probable reasons why but primarily because of MSVA/IVA consequences and the costs and the reduced market for kit cars generally IMO. There are notable exceptions with remarkably energetic individuals making a real success in every sphere of kit cars currently but I suspect they would succeed at whatever they decide to do. Just not many.

Very true, we really need a new Lomax or JZR concept for the year 2014, maybe by using more mass produced available motorycle engines, in the 600-800cc range and exo-skeleton chassis and very simple bodywork...

Another overlooked 3wheeler by the main media, has been the Malone Skunk:
http://www.malonecar.eclipse.co.uk/purchasingkit.h...

Nice post, nice three wheeler excellent svelte shape. I can only admire your inexhaustible efforts to identify and bring to the attention of others remarkablly good new efforts. I assumed Malone Skunk was priced at a level attractive only to real enthusiasts with adequate finances and indeed upon examination the prices seem to start at £23000+ plus VAT or pushing £28K OTR. Lovely car but never likely to be built in any numbers at that price.

If we are to achieve any volume in sales of essentially niche market cars in kit form then affordable prices have to be the most critical element IMO. Beautiful, but expensive less than mainstream kits must be low volume markets if in fact, at these prices, there are markets. There will always be a few enthusiasts who are determined to achieve ownership of such vehicles. What I would hope can be achieved is the offering of a modern svelte attractive shape with a much lower overall price, A three wheeler capable of challenging the Seven clones so prevalent in the KC world.

I believe the Berkeley (compulsive/pragmatic behaviour from me here! For a change!) updated with a modern three cylinder ecoengine turning 125 brake with say 750cc could achieve just that. Light weight, responsive, svelte shape, tandem seating, luggage space and weather gear included. Lawrie Bond visualised that solution with the Berkeley 60 years ago but the technology failed him. I am ever hopeful that someone will take this up as a possibility.

[fuoriserie]

Steffan said:

fuoriserie said:

Steffan said:

fuoriserie said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-63A7Bwecs

The Badsey Bullet video

I thought I had seen this before and indeed see:

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2010/11/08/hemm...

It is remarkable how many of these three wheeler's are created by enthusiasts and sadly how few reach even double figures in production. For a whole variety of reasons but primarily not what the customers can either afford or want I think. The very best (my opinion) like the Grinnall and Blackjack and Ariel have their own dedicated followers and the Morgan seems to be a real niche market the Pendleton still sells and so on.

But for some years nothing has really come onto the market and been sustained by demand in the market. In the US truly recreational trikes come and go with the bigger hobby budgets there. Since the Lomax faded in the UK I cannot think of a true volume seller. Lot of probable reasons why but primarily because of MSVA/IVA consequences and the costs and the reduced market for kit cars generally IMO. There are notable exceptions with remarkably energetic individuals making a real success in every sphere of kit cars currently but I suspect they would succeed at whatever they decide to do. Just not many.

Very true, we really need a new Lomax or JZR concept for the year 2014, maybe by using more mass produced available motorycle engines, in the 600-800cc range and exo-skeleton chassis and very simple bodywork...

Another overlooked 3wheeler by the main media, has been the Malone Skunk:
http://www.malonecar.eclipse.co.uk/purchasingkit.h...

I am ever hopeful that someone will take this up as a possibility.

Maybe it's about time for a new personal project...

[fuoriserie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiktgVnoOr0

You do need weather protection on a new 3wheeler design...

perfect in sunny weather...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmD_YdLl_X0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htI3weS49cc

Edited by fuoriserie on Saturday 22 February 21:32

[Steffan]

said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiktgVnoOr0

You do need weather protection on a new 3wheeler design...

perfect in sunny weather...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmD_YdLl_X0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htI3weS49cc

Edited by fuoriserie on Saturday 22 February 21:32

Another informative post, fuoriserie. I did spot your suggestion that "Maybe it's about time for a new personal project... and I thought it might be a nudge to me .

Being compulsive/obsessive and crackers to boot I have far too many projects on with five new kit cars in build up to IVA ( for this year) and two awaiting registration. Not to mention a shedload (literally) of old kits I cannot get around to, despite my best efforts. My vehicle purchasing power vastly exceeds my vehicle finishing capacity. I also think a better designer (me an Accountant design ability Nil or probably less) is needed.

The cars you referred to earlier in the Peel copies article apparently have a contract value of £200,000 for ten cars unless I am misreading the article. Which very much suggests niche market to me. Interesting but I cannot see that actually generating business personally.

For a project to succeed in producing a really good Three wheeler at a price that would compete and beat existing Seven clones etc the car would need to sell at around 25% less than the equivalent finished four wheel kit car IMO. An all enveloping fibreglass body following the Berkeley (Bond) designs could be built at that price IMO but whether any manufacturer is up for it I have serious doubts. I have tried to foster such a proposal with several universities and kit car manufacturers to no avail and suggested prototype cars in that form in an effort to get that off the ground in years gone by. Regrettably this has not worked.

In consequence I keep to my hobby of building a number of kit cars each year where I can almost recoup my costs and break nearly even annually although I do make a loss. Every year. Despite being an eternal optimist and believing that such manfacturing in the UK is a very worthwhile project for the UK, I cannot see this happening in today's market for kit cars. But I am still hoping! Given the constraints of the economy and the considerable on costs of MSVA/IVA etc I do fear that hope is currently forlorn. But the hope still flickers!

[fuoriserie]

Steffan said:

said:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiktgVnoOr0

You do need weather protection on a new 3wheeler design...

perfect in sunny weather...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmD_YdLl_X0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htI3weS49cc

Edited by fuoriserie on Saturday 22 February 21:32

Another informative post, fuoriserie. I did spot your suggestion that "Maybe it's about time for a new personal project... and I thought it might be a nudge to me .

Being compulsive/obsessive and crackers to boot I have far too many projects on with five new kit cars in build up to IVA ( for this year) and two awaiting registration. Not to mention a shedload (literally) of old kits I cannot get around to, despite my best efforts. My vehicle purchasing power vastly exceeds my vehicle finishing capacity. I also think a better designer (me an Accountant design ability Nil or probably less) is needed.

The cars you referred to earlier in the Peel copies article apparently have a contract value of £200,000 for ten cars unless I am misreading the article. Which very much suggests niche market to me. Interesting but I cannot see that actually generating business personally.

For a project to succeed in producing a really good Three wheeler at a price that would compete and beat existing Seven clones etc the car would need to sell at around 25% less than the equivalent finished four wheel kit car IMO. An all enveloping fibreglass body following the Berkeley (Bond) designs could be built at that price IMO but whether any manufacturer is up for it I have serious doubts. I have tried to foster such a proposal with several universities and kit car manufacturers to no avail and suggested prototype cars in that form in an effort to get that off the ground in years gone by. Regrettably this has not worked.

In consequence I keep to my hobby of building a number of kit cars each year where I can almost recoup my costs and break nearly even annually although I do make a loss. Every year. Despite being an eternal optimist and believing that such manfacturing in the UK is a very worthwhile project for the UK, I cannot see this happening in today's market for kit cars. But I am still hoping! Given the constraints of the economy and the considerable on costs of MSVA/IVA etc I do fear that hope is currently forlorn. But the hope still flickers!

You're welcome...very few are still interested in 3wheelers but maybe there is a niche somewhere and we haven't seen it yet...

I agree with you that the price should be lower than a comparable seven, but you would have to be really creative to make it happen, and a full fiberglass body could make it costly to manufacture, but I'm more radical in this approach and maybe an exo-skeleton with a mix of a few GRP parts and cloth could work...maybe !

I still think that something like a modern design inspired by the Velorex has never been done and could make for ain interesting and value for money 3wheeler











I had intended the remark for myself as I'm ready for a new Design project and challenge....will have to wait a few months and hopefully by the summer I'll be able to work on something..

In the near futue I Might open a thread with a few sketches and ideas just for fun, just like I did for the Cabin Scooter Design Thread, but maybe this time it will be shorter...

Italo

[S47]

Best 3 wheeler ever IMO :-
Ford based Buckland B3
Not the cheapest - but the best NEVER is:-
>

[Steffan]

S47 said:

Best 3 wheeler ever IMO :-
Ford based Buckland B3
Not the cheapest - but the best NEVER is:-
>

An excellent car and well made. I personally like the Morgan if price is no object. The Berkeley fitted with a modern m/c engine is the most affordable IMO and that says something for our current efforts. 60 year old design still leads IMO and that is been more true of the Morgan. I regret to say that with the notable exception of Stuart Mills and Fuoriserie on here kit car makers are missing a trick on this.

[Justaredbadge]

Steffan said:

An excellent car and well made. I personally like the Morgan if price is no object. The Berkeley fitted with a modern m/c engine is the most affordable IMO and that says something for our current efforts. 60 year old design still leads IMO and that is been more true of the Morgan. I regret to say that with the notable exception of Stuart Mills and Fuoriserie on here kit car makers are missing a trick on this.

Except they aren't, because the "customers" never seem to materialise.

As I said before, possibly in this thread, would you really invent a year or so of design, manufacture, development, "productionising" etc an idea for an affordable three wheeler when deep down at the back of your mind you know that you may sell 5 of them. Will you ever make a return on your investment? So is the idea a realistic business?

If you wish to do it as a hobby, to make a nice toy for yourself, all power to you. go for it and enjoy the experience.

But unless you have form in designing cars, how many people are going to take a punt on a new design from a company that may/may not be around when other comes around to ordering spares (based on previous 3 wheeler companies).

[fuoriserie]

The Cy-Car a Hot Rod inspired threewheeler

http://cy-car.net/page/2/

[Steffan]

Just a thought for anyone interesting in acquiring a three wheeler project from Ebay see

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131118701914?_trksid=p20...

I have no idea whether this is good value or otherwise but it would seem worth considering to me. However I have no experience of leaning systems on three wheelers so caveat emptor always! If I buy another car, (Just bought another falling to bits Banham Sprite but it is registered so no IVA!) SWMBO will decapitate me which is definitely best avoided.

[fuoriserie]

Steffan said:

Just a thought for anyone interesting in acquiring a three wheeler project from Ebay see

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131118701914?_trksid=p20...

I have no idea whether this is good value or otherwise but it would seem worth considering to me. However I have no experience of leaning systems on three wheelers so caveat emptor always! If I buy another car, (Just bought another falling to bits Banham Sprite but it is registered so no IVA!) SWMBO will decapitate me which is definitely best avoided.

http://mevltd.co.uk/vd/tiltingtrike.htm

It's one of Stuart's Designs.

[fuoriserie]

A modern Velorex inspired threewheeler ? eventhough the seating is tandem....


http://www.arcimoto.com/product

[Sat351]

Looks to me, with the endless options of 3 wheelers posted here, I like others don't see what else there is to bring to the market, let alone spend £££££ on developing yet another design that will always sell in small numbers,

As a manufacturer customers always come along and want something else, everyone has their own ideas but producing a idea that 1 person likes doesn't mean anyone else will like it,

The proof is in this thread, pages and pages of ideas, but they are all different IMHO,

[Sway]

I mostly agree, but would say that there's common themes that come through:

Traditionally inspired trikes
Lightweight bike engined exo trikes
FWD eco trikes

Where I personally want to go (but need to learn suspension design) is a lightweight, single seat (with central driving position) performance trike with some form of luggage capacity. The sort of thing a daily Caterfield driver could use for commuting. Not worried about weather protection as long as it's not an exo frame, don't want absolute performance but driving enjoyment, don't want a pastiche/homage to the 1930's.

Once I figure out how to design suspension (although I understand it's simpler for trikes as it's a single roll centre?)/figure out suitable steering rack/come up with a decent aesthetic, I will make one for myself, and it'll probably have a composite tub chassis/cockpit with front subframe and rear engine cradle/swingarm. Essentially take the best bits of my GTM Libra but reduce the weight even further and add the size/dimension benefits a single seater provides.

[Steffan]

Sat351 said:

Looks to me, with the endless options of 3 wheelers posted here, I like others don't see what else there is to bring to the market, let alone spend £££££ on developing yet another design that will always sell in small numbers,

As a manufacturer customers always come along and want something else, everyone has their own ideas but producing a idea that 1 person likes doesn't mean anyone else will like it,

The proof is in this thread, pages and pages of ideas, but they are all different IMHO,

You may well be correct. Certainly no one so far as I know has bettered the value for money/outstanding design of the old Berkeley by Lawrie Bond in the 1950's. The indomitable Stuart Mills is on a mission with his latest very interesting creation on three wheels with his Lithium Yttrium powered three wheeler. I can only admire the drive ability and energy of Stuart Mills and his MEV outfit. I am very much looking forward to seeing Stuart again and viewing his latest creations at Stoneleigh.

I personally hope three wheelers make a comeback because I drove a Morgan Three wheeler (1100 CC JAP powered V Twin) and several Berkeley's early on in my driving career and the bug has stayed with me. Currently I am still finishing five kit cars a year and I cannot buy another project until the backlog is removed. With SWMBO already in explosive mood with the current crop taking up far too nuch space another purchase could be fatal for my wellbeing. But I do hope someone has a go! Once I have got these out then I will build at least two three wheelers. God willing!

[Sat351]

Yep Stuarts doing a great job as usual as he did with the Eco-Exo that's why it's selling well, but I've got to say more overseas!!

His new creation looks good, but I think although everyone wants EV, when it comes down to the end cost most people will walk away,

When you say, you hope some will have a go, have a go at what exactly? There are so many individual likes I can't see how anyone would know where to start,,, the option are vast IMHO

[Steffan]

Sat351 said:

Yep Stuarts doing a great job as usual as he did with the Eco-Exo that's why it's selling well, but I've got to say more overseas!!

His new creation looks good, but I think although everyone wants EV, when it comes down to the end cost most people will walk away,

When you say, you hope some will have a go, have a go at what exactly? There are so many individual likes I can't see how anyone would know where to start,,, the option are vast IMHO

Keep it simple has always been my approach to all business because I am a Chartered Accountant and like a simple life. I made a very good living because others do not manage that. I would suggest obtaining a Berkeley shell (still just about available) add a light powerful motorcycle (650cc++) in the front with FWD by mating to a light fwd box and fabricate the suspension. I would use a single trailing arm at the rear from an m/c and off you go. Looks good, should handle well. Could be built (by me) for an all up cost of about £3800 I reckon. Obviously that would include IVA (and retest!! as always) but I could do it for that personally I reckon. I have a lot of engineering contacts. It will look the part if built correctly because the Berkeley's did by the thousand. I am not trying to reinvent the genre! Just to build a tribute three wheeler.

It would keep me busy for a few months and it is not a complex build (I avoid all big kit cars and enclosed kit car builds for that reason). But it will not happen for a good two years because I have ten cars to finish. Oh the joys of compulsive/obsession!!

[fuoriserie]

http://autochunk.com/1789/2012/07/20/crazy-wheels-...

A Chinese FWD threewheeler Concept...

[Mistrale]

Steffan - you make it sound so simple "mate it to a FWD gearbox"... I'm curious - how would you do this - keep the bike gearbox and chain drive the FWD diff?