Three Wheelers - Your opinions and expertise wanted!

[fuoriserie]

qdos said:

Not really, you of all people should know that Italo

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=piaggio+ape&...

Yes....but it doesn't have two wheels at the front...

but it got me thinking about Ape Piaggio drifting, this guys are maniacs !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4iKGMom3K0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_5T-DMdaLw

Edited by fuoriserie on Thursday 6th August 16:26

[qdos]

fuoriserie said:

Yes....but it doesn't have two wheels at the front...

but it got me thinking about Ape Piaggio drifting, this guys are maniacs !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4iKGMom3K0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_5T-DMdaLw

Insane!

[ceebmoj]

I saw a polaris slingshot in the flesh last week, it was nicer in the flesh than I expected.

[fuoriserie]

ceebmoj said:

I saw a polaris slingshot in the flesh last week, it was nicer in the flesh than I expected.

Clearly inspired by the KTM X-Bow design.

[Steffan]

fuoriserie said:

ceebmoj said:

I saw a polaris slingshot in the flesh last week, it was nicer in the flesh than I expected.

Clearly inspired by the KTM X-Bow design.

Derivative cars are pretty commonplace in kit cars. Has the lines of the X-Bow. Not a design I would fancy but good luck to those that do. Currently there does not seem to be much progress in extent three wheeler kit car designs actually OTR and availlable at affordable prices. I appreciate you (fuoriserie) are making every effort to assist in that progress.

I still believe a lightweight, Bike powered threee wheeler with svelte bodywork, exemplary handling and OTR at an affordable price would succeed. However not happenning currently in the UK or indeed elsewhere currently, it seems. Fair number of dream machines but not a lot of take up?

I do wonder why?

[fuoriserie]

Steffan said:

fuoriserie said:

ceebmoj said:

I saw a polaris slingshot in the flesh last week, it was nicer in the flesh than I expected.

Clearly inspired by the KTM X-Bow design.

Derivative cars are pretty commonplace in kit cars. Has the lines of the X-Bow. Not a design I would fancy but good luck to those that do. Currently there does not seem to be much progress in extent three wheeler kit car designs actually OTR and availlable at affordable prices. I appreciate you (fuoriserie) are making every effort to assist in that progress.

I still believe a lightweight, Bike powered threee wheeler with svelte bodywork, exemplary handling and OTR at an affordable price would succeed. However not happenning currently in the UK or indeed elsewhere currently, it seems. Fair number of dream machines but not a lot of take up?

I do wonder why?

I agree with your analysis...just wonder if it's age related ? or if it's product related ? there are still many choices out there...but maybe we also have to take into account, that threewheelers are for the non conformist kitcar enthusiast...and kitcars are also a non conformist niche...very few numbers are sold, especially if you don't have the Morgan pedigree

I''ve decided to go ahead with a new threewheeler design and hopefully show it in 2016.....It will be a working summer for me...

Cheers
Italo

[qdos]

Steffan said:

Currently there does not seem to be much progress in extent three wheeler kit car designs actually OTR and availlable at affordable prices.

I still believe a lightweight, Bike powered threee wheeler with svelte bodywork, exemplary handling and OTR at an affordable price would succeed.

So what would you say was the right sort of price?

[Steffan]

C

fuoriserie said:

Steffan said:

fuoriserie said:

ceebmoj said:

I saw a polaris slingshot in the flesh last week, it was nicer in the flesh than I expected.

Clearly inspired by the KTM X-Bow design.

Derivative cars are pretty commonplace in kit cars. Has the lines of the X-Bow. Not a design I would fancy but good luck to those that do. Currently there does not seem to be much progress in extent three wheeler kit car designs actually OTR and availlable at affordable prices. I appreciate you (fuoriserie) are making every effort to assist in that progress.

I still believe a lightweight, Bike powered threee wheeler with svelte bodywork, exemplary handling and OTR at an affordable price would succeed. However not happenning currently in the UK or indeed elsewhere currently, it seems. Fair number of dream machines but not a lot of take up?

I do wonder why?

I agree with your analysis...just wonder if it's age related ? or if it's product related ? there are still many choices out there...but maybe we also have to take into account, that threewheelers are for the non conformist kitcar enthusiast...and kitcars are also a non conformist niche...very few numbers are sold, especially if you don't have the Morgan pedigree

I''ve decided to go ahead with a new threewheeler design and hopefully show it in 2016.....It will be a working summer for me...

Cheers
Italo

Italo, I do wish you every success with you latest project. When you reach the point of marketing the design I look forward to seeing the car in the flesh at my earliest opportunity! We are planning on being in Lucca nine months of the year and I do hope we can meet up in that time!

Give me a shout if you are about Lucca or Piza or Florence (All easily accessible fir me, from the excellent Italian railways) and I will come over and buy you a splendid feast whilst we discuss the points you raised above. My pleasure! In Italy meals are what thy should be. Magnificent feasts!! Well they are for me anyway. Sod French cooking. In fact Sod the French! Give me genuine Italian quisine every time! Magnificent!

Turning to your very pertinent questions I suspect as with so many marketing conundrums in life it's the combination that matters. On the basis I am in my 70th year and have been building kit cars for over 55 years it would suggest to me not necessarily. However I am (At best) and odd bod. I certainly think creativity and the energy needed to be effectively creative diminishes. But I know personally of Octogenerians still building, driving and enjoying kit cars. Oldest is a Nonagenarian!!

I think it may be product related in that thirty years ago it was substantially less onerous to get a kit car registered, in the UK. I do think we are better served with the greater emphasis safety first and probably rightly so. However, currently, all my many kit car builder colleagues are inundated with enquiries from kit car owners looking for a cheap easy way to get an unregistered kit car registered, legally. There are none! Indeed many firms I know now will only entertain assessing the probable cost of such a project if the owner is preared to pay for initial dismantling and assessement necessary, to establish a reasonable possible price. It is simply not an easy process nowadays.

In my opinion the real problem is that there are very kit cars designs currently that have actually equalled let alone exceeded the efforts of Lawrie Bond with his Berkeley designs. Worth remembering the popularity and success these cars had 50+ years go! It was only the collapse of the Caravan manufacturing business that sank Berkeley! Despite the effitprts of British Anzani (or the lack of efforts) those cars were still selling well, at the time of the Berkeley collapse.

There is one shining example of success in kit cars currently and that is, as you, know that of the MEV car company and Stuart Mills therein. Quite unique in his ability to manage the business and make the product at a price I cannot possibly equal, let alone shave anything from, in building a kit car myself. His Replicar and other excellent products are simply the way to go for the majority of kit car builders, I suggest? Certainly the one donor MX5 route saves a vast amount of effort and time for the builder on the project. Primariily because all the components are matched and present saves months of work.

Some of the Syla products I have built over the years proved that fact to me. Components from at least three different cars. Jeremy Phillips was one of the best kit car designers I have ever heard of, quite outstanding with suspension design and handling abilities and I have a huge regard for all his designs. But the one donor route is really the best compromise nowadays between simplicity registration and achievable results I think.

Whether any of this is actually correct, of course, is a moot point. Matter for duscussion! Just my thoughts on the subject! Best of luck to you Italo in your designs. I have great hopes.

[fuoriserie]

qdos said:

Steffan said:

Currently there does not seem to be much progress in extent three wheeler kit car designs actually OTR and availlable at affordable prices.

I still believe a lightweight, Bike powered threee wheeler with svelte bodywork, exemplary handling and OTR at an affordable price would succeed.

So what would you say was the right sort of price?

A very difficult question to answer, but by looking at some of the base kit prices, that can vary greatly, I would say something in-between 4.000 and 8.000 Pounds ?

http://www.blackjackzero.com/mainindex.htm
http://www.spitfireart.com/braprices.html
http://www.smartsrus.com/rtr_tr1ke_kitprice.html
http://www.razorcars.co.uk/
http://exomotive.com/tr1ke/
http://trikingsportscars.co.uk/current-prices

[fuoriserie]

Steffan said:

C

fuoriserie said:

Steffan said:

fuoriserie said:

ceebmoj said:

I saw a polaris slingshot in the flesh last week, it was nicer in the flesh than I expected.

Clearly inspired by the KTM X-Bow design.

Derivative cars are pretty commonplace in kit cars. Has the lines of the X-Bow. Not a design I would fancy but good luck to those that do. Currently there does not seem to be much progress in extent three wheeler kit car designs actually OTR and availlable at affordable prices. I appreciate you (fuoriserie) are making every effort to assist in that progress.

I still believe a lightweight, Bike powered threee wheeler with svelte bodywork, exemplary handling and OTR at an affordable price would succeed. However not happenning currently in the UK or indeed elsewhere currently, it seems. Fair number of dream machines but not a lot of take up?

I do wonder why?

I agree with your analysis...just wonder if it's age related ? or if it's product related ? there are still many choices out there...but maybe we also have to take into account, that threewheelers are for the non conformist kitcar enthusiast...and kitcars are also a non conformist niche...very few numbers are sold, especially if you don't have the Morgan pedigree

I''ve decided to go ahead with a new threewheeler design and hopefully show it in 2016.....It will be a working summer for me...

Cheers
Italo

Italo, I do wish you every success with you latest project. When you reach the point of marketing the design I look forward to seeing the car in the flesh at my earliest opportunity! We are planning on being in Lucca nine months of the year and I do hope we can meet up in that time!

Give me a shout if you are about Lucca or Piza or Florence (All easily accessible fir me, from the excellent Italian railways) and I will come over and buy you a splendid feast whilst we discuss the points you raised above. My pleasure! In Italy meals are what thy should be. Magnificent feasts!! Well they are for me anyway. Sod French cooking. In fact Sod the French! Give me genuine Italian quisine every time! Magnificent!

Turning to your very pertinent questions I suspect as with so many marketing conundrums in life it's the combination that matters. On the basis I am in my 70th year and have been building kit cars for over 55 years it would suggest to me not necessarily. However I am (At best) and odd bod. I certainly think creativity and the energy needed to be effectively creative diminishes. But I know personally of Octogenerians still building, driving and enjoying kit cars. Oldest is a Nonagenarian!!

I think it may be product related in that thirty years ago it was substantially less onerous to get a kit car registered, in the UK. I do think we are better served with the greater emphasis safety first and probably rightly so. However, currently, all my many kit car builder colleagues are inundated with enquiries from kit car owners looking for a cheap easy way to get an unregistered kit car registered, legally. There are none! Indeed many firms I know now will only entertain assessing the probable cost of such a project if the owner is preared to pay for initial dismantling and assessement necessary, to establish a reasonable possible price. It is simply not an easy process nowadays.

In my opinion the real problem is that there are very kit cars designs currently that have actually equalled let alone exceeded the efforts of Lawrie Bond with his Berkeley designs. Worth remembering the popularity and success these cars had 50+ years go! It was only the collapse of the Caravan manufacturing business that sank Berkeley! Despite the effitprts of British Anzani (or the lack of efforts) those cars were still selling well, at the time of the Berkeley collapse.

There is one shining example of success in kit cars currently and that is, as you, know that of the MEV car company and Stuart Mills therein. Quite unique in his ability to manage the business and make the product at a price I cannot possibly equal, let alone shave anything from, in building a kit car myself. His Replicar and other excellent products are simply the way to go for the majority of kit car builders, I suggest? Certainly the one donor MX5 route saves a vast amount of effort and time for the builder on the project. Primariily because all the components are matched and present saves months of work.

Some of the Syla products I have built over the years proved that fact to me. Components from at least three different cars. Jeremy Phillips was one of the best kit car designers I have ever heard of, quite outstanding with suspension design and handling abilities and I have a huge regard for all his designs. But the one donor route is really the best compromise nowadays between simplicity registration and achievable results I think.

Whether any of this is actually correct, of course, is a moot point. Matter for duscussion! Just my thoughts on the subject! Best of luck to you Italo in your designs. I have great hopes.

Thank you Steffan and look forward to meeting you in Italy in front of a good meal and nice glass of wine...

You're more than welcome to stop by my place, I live about 5km from the Monza Race Circuit...and with reference to the prototype, it still a long way to go, but the design is finalised as is the engine, it will be a mid-engine threewheeler powered by a Ducati twin...

Hopefully in a few months time, I can start showing something in a dedicated website or my facebook page...

With reference to single donors... I have to agree with you, it will be the way to go in the future, especially for more mainstream kitcars. MEV has been doing a great job and I believe that Stuart has found the right mix, in product and marketing his kitcars.

The Sylva is one of the best kitcars in the industry, and I'm always looking forward to seeing the next design project Jeremy phillips is working on.

With reference to my design, what I can say for now, is that it's a modern-retro inspired design...

Enjoy your stay in Italy, the cuisine, the beauty, the sun and the people, or at least some of them....

[fuoriserie]

http://www.oldhamkraft.co.uk/index.html

A nice build site of a Grinnall Scorpion threewheeler.

[fuoriserie]

Shocked by how big is the Polaris Slingshot by comparing it to the Grinnall Scorpion

http://www.slingshotforums.com/threads/sligshot-vs...

check the images on the link.....

[qdos]

You forget it's American and consequently it's obese

Yep it's huge. it certainly doesn't float my boat

[Steffan]

qdos said:

You forget it's American and consequently it's obese

Yep it's huge. it certainly doesn't float my boat

Nor mine. The Ginnall is quite a performer! Lightweight svelte shapely and very quick indeed. I have driven a number they really are very worthwhile cars. Heavy ponderous three wheelers are not my favourites al all. Bring back the Berkeley is my suggestion updated with a1500cc bike engine. Now that should be a real flyer!

[Huff]

fuoriserie said:

Shocked by how big is the Polaris Slingshot by comparing it to the Grinnall Scorpion
...

Crikey. The Grinnall makes the Polaris look over-styled and technically completely under-developed, despite the two decade gap. For a start there's gallumphing amounts of unsprung mass there (and fundamentally significantly higher CoG) that simply won't help the Polaris cause, regardless of how well it may be 'tied-down'.

[fuoriserie]

qdos said:

You forget it's American and consequently it's obese

Yep it's huge. it certainly doesn't float my boat

I agree...I guess they want more confortable seating....

[fuoriserie]

Steffan said:

qdos said:

You forget it's American and consequently it's obese

Yep it's huge. it certainly doesn't float my boat

Nor mine. The Ginnall is quite a performer! Lightweight svelte shapely and very quick indeed. I have driven a number they really are very worthwhile cars. Heavy ponderous three wheelers are not my favourites al all. Bring back the Berkeley is my suggestion updated with a1500cc bike engine. Now that should be a real flyer!

The Scorpion is a great design by Steve Harper and you can see here some of his rough sketches:

http://www.shado.co.uk/portfolio/design.php?id=42

The Berkeley deserves a come back, maybe as a light quadricycle class vehicle ?

[fuoriserie]

Huff said:

fuoriserie said:

Shocked by how big is the Polaris Slingshot by comparing it to the Grinnall Scorpion
...

Crikey. The Grinnall makes the Polaris look over-styled and technically completely under-developed, despite the two decade gap. For a start there's gallumphing amounts of unsprung mass there (and fundamentally significantly higher CoG) that simply won't help the Polaris cause, regardless of how well it may be 'tied-down'.

I agree with you, the Scorpion still looks fantastic in its design after 20 yrs. time, and wonder if the same test will hold for the Slingshot in the year 2034 ?...I'm not so sure...

[fuoriserie]

Steffan said:

fuoriserie said:

ceebmoj said:

I saw a polaris slingshot in the flesh last week, it was nicer in the flesh than I expected.

Clearly inspired by the KTM X-Bow design.

I still believe a lightweight, Bike powered threee wheeler with svelte bodywork, exemplary handling and OTR at an affordable price would succeed. However not happenning currently in the UK or indeed elsewhere currently, it seems. Fair number of dream machines but not a lot of take up?

I do wonder why?

Here is one is for you Steffan..., a svelte bodywork with a classic V-Twin Guzzi at the front and a GRP monocoque chassis with subframes....

[Steffan]

fuoriserie said:

Steffan said:

fuoriserie said:

ceebmoj said:

I saw a polaris slingshot in the flesh last week, it was nicer in the flesh than I expected.

Clearly inspired by the KTM X-Bow design.

I still believe a lightweight, Bike powered threee wheeler with svelte bodywork, exemplary handling and OTR at an affordable price would succeed. However not happenning currently in the UK or indeed elsewhere currently, it seems. Fair number of dream machines but not a lot of take up?

I do wonder why?

Here is one is for you Steffan..., a svelte bodywork with a classic V-Twin Guzzi at the front and a GRP monocoque chassis with subframes....

Very interesting vehicle indeed!

I know you're stoking up the fires on producing such a very interesting three wheeler. Being only an Accountant such skills are well beyond me. Any idea what the likely costs will be for the Body tub and chassis. What would the overall build costs be likely to be. To be successful I think the market might support OTR prices using per owned motorcycle mechanics of perhaps just under £10,000? Otherwise the demand will be limited by being restricted to a few pretty affluent individuals.

I sold my Quantum RS Turbo recently which was IVA'd last year. The overall cost of building that kit amounted to well in excess of £12,000 before I bought the kit party built and I finished it off and put it though IVA. Cost me about £3000 to finish that kit. Heavy loss to the seller but he definitely wanted the car gone. I always turn up if I agree to buy a car. Hence the deal.

I do wish you well with your designs which are definitely worth serious consideration by anyone really interested in building such a car. My time in Italy over the next two years will preclude me building any cars at all, personally. I do look forward to meeting up with you, Italo, over in Italy I am there from October on. Keep up the very good work!


Keep up the design work, there is definitely something in that latest creation.