Vixen - engine swap - ideas and guidance please
Discussion
Hi Nigel,
I thought I'd give you my experience of a Zetec'd Vixen. At the end of the day you can make things as difficult or as easy as you want. By the way here is my one man body lift - influenced by past posts on this forum. Eye bolts through the floor where the body bolts to the chassis.
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/DAZA_1/IMAG...
I was the first to install a Zetec in a Vixen, first starting with the 1800 Fiesta SI 130Bhp. The engine using this setup its self is very responsive and reliabable. These engines are also suitable for running in warm climates, as they run hotter than their original counterparts.
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/DAZA_1/009V...
As you can see this engine was fitted on with the original EFI injection and controlled using a wiring loom from a Formular Ford setup at the time (still have the loom and ECU tucked away in the garage somewhere). I modified a pair of escort engine mounts all beit crudely, but they did the job. The gearbox is the old faithful Type 9 5 speed gearbox, the mount was made from a flat piece of steel. The old engine mounts can be seen in the picture below. Also in the picture below is my custom made exhaust, where the boxes were designed to go up inside the chassis, giving additional ground clearance
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/DAZA_1/P111...
I've since had new water pipes made from stainless steel by an exhaust manufacturer, however the original pipes were just aluminium tube.
Below are the new engine mounts (I have a some available). Just get hold of the bung type engine mounts from Rally Design and the engine drops straight in.
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/DAZA_1/IMAG...
This was the final state of tune was before I took the car off the road with a cracked chassis. The 1800 was replaced with a 2000 engine supplied by Scholar engines who also have a history with Formular Ford. This engine in its current setup was approx 175Bhp with Jenvey throttle boddies and MBE Management. As correctly pointed out, you can fit a BDA replica cam cover, but you can achieve close to the same by mounting the coilpack under the inlet manifold, a couple of twin 45 webbers and run the plug leads from under the manifold to the top of the rocker cover. Save your money and get the head worked on!!
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/DAZA_1/Imag...
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/DAZA_1/Imag...
The chassis has been replaced and galvanized. I didnt like the shiney look, so I sprayed it with epoxy mastic. All chassis mods and bracing that I wanted were made before galvanizing.
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/DAZA_1/P106...
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/DAZA_1/P312...
My uncle used to autocross V8 Hillman Imps, and always used to say "Theres no Replacement for Displacement", however. These cars are like road going go-karts, you dont want to be putting a big old heavy oil burner in them, you'll kill the characteristics of the car. One other note, there are no modifications to the chassis required to fit one!!! Yeyyyyyyyy!!
Darren
I thought I'd give you my experience of a Zetec'd Vixen. At the end of the day you can make things as difficult or as easy as you want. By the way here is my one man body lift - influenced by past posts on this forum. Eye bolts through the floor where the body bolts to the chassis.
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/DAZA_1/IMAG...
I was the first to install a Zetec in a Vixen, first starting with the 1800 Fiesta SI 130Bhp. The engine using this setup its self is very responsive and reliabable. These engines are also suitable for running in warm climates, as they run hotter than their original counterparts.
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/DAZA_1/009V...
As you can see this engine was fitted on with the original EFI injection and controlled using a wiring loom from a Formular Ford setup at the time (still have the loom and ECU tucked away in the garage somewhere). I modified a pair of escort engine mounts all beit crudely, but they did the job. The gearbox is the old faithful Type 9 5 speed gearbox, the mount was made from a flat piece of steel. The old engine mounts can be seen in the picture below. Also in the picture below is my custom made exhaust, where the boxes were designed to go up inside the chassis, giving additional ground clearance
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/DAZA_1/P111...
I've since had new water pipes made from stainless steel by an exhaust manufacturer, however the original pipes were just aluminium tube.
Below are the new engine mounts (I have a some available). Just get hold of the bung type engine mounts from Rally Design and the engine drops straight in.
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/DAZA_1/IMAG...
This was the final state of tune was before I took the car off the road with a cracked chassis. The 1800 was replaced with a 2000 engine supplied by Scholar engines who also have a history with Formular Ford. This engine in its current setup was approx 175Bhp with Jenvey throttle boddies and MBE Management. As correctly pointed out, you can fit a BDA replica cam cover, but you can achieve close to the same by mounting the coilpack under the inlet manifold, a couple of twin 45 webbers and run the plug leads from under the manifold to the top of the rocker cover. Save your money and get the head worked on!!
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/DAZA_1/Imag...
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/DAZA_1/Imag...
The chassis has been replaced and galvanized. I didnt like the shiney look, so I sprayed it with epoxy mastic. All chassis mods and bracing that I wanted were made before galvanizing.
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/DAZA_1/P106...
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/DAZA_1/P312...
My uncle used to autocross V8 Hillman Imps, and always used to say "Theres no Replacement for Displacement", however. These cars are like road going go-karts, you dont want to be putting a big old heavy oil burner in them, you'll kill the characteristics of the car. One other note, there are no modifications to the chassis required to fit one!!! Yeyyyyyyyy!!
Darren
Comadis said:
....with a Ford V6 (cologne) but not the asthmatic 2.8L you may choose a 4L, mostly found in the ford explorer...lots of torque, same flange for gearbox as the smaller cologne engines.
I'm not trying to pick a fight, but .....Explorers are fairly common here. I discovered that most of the 4L series is OHC, so is a lot taller (it won't go under a wedge bonnet on original mounts for example), and advice is that they don't rev well at all, and are WORSE than the 2.8/2.9 for breathing. This was because they were designed for an SUV profile. Obviously you can change all this with the right parts....but it's money, money, money.
For some reason there is a lot of negative stuff on the Cologne engines, and it isn't truly deserved is all I'm saying.
The absolute best of the bunch without big mods was the early Cosworth 2.9 twin cam.
It's a VERY tight fit in a 280 wedge - probably goes in more easily in a Vixen.
A standard 2.9 develops more power and the same torque as the old Essex, and does so using less gas. Not too shabby.
But I have to agree, it's a VERY classic (i.e. almost stone age) engine....and heavy.
IF I was choosing a classic right now in NZ, it would almost certainly be a Holden (Buick) 3800 V6 with T5 gbox...... cheap, plentiful, powerful, and almost V8 levels of torque...
Would be no good for UK of course... No idea what I would look at if I was still there... The Duratecs do have a fabulous writeup, so possibly
Can you still get the Opel GSi twin cam lumps? (the redtop ?) They had a fab reputation, but will also be a bit old by now...
But yeah given the location, I reckon the Jap twin cams will be the easiest to source - some of those have great reputations too, and a big range of options.
Edited by RCK974X on Wednesday 1st February 04:04
heightswitch said:
I'm thinking about a 1.9 Audi TDi for the next vixen!!
170hp, 60 to the gallon, very tourqey and available for less than £1000 plus the cost of switching to RWD??...
A friend of mine recently intimated that he has purchased a Facel Facellia. He plans to use that same motivating force with which to commit sacrilege. 170hp, 60 to the gallon, very tourqey and available for less than £1000 plus the cost of switching to RWD??...
The uninitiated will doubtless tell you that you need a set of rings.
Best,
B.
OK, here goes, this one is for Neil,,, whilst initially trying engines in the chassis during the cars first build I did offer a Rover Vitesse lump in. My uncle was getting 300bhp from the rover lump long before TVR were. I probably wouldn't have got insurances for the car, or I'd have killed myself, so I decided against it.
My recently completed first project was a Hillman Avenger Tiger replica complete with Leary orange and black paint job. The car was fitted with a Holbay H120 engine, which run on twin 40's. The chassis on the car had started to go, some time into the into Vixen rebuild the . I managed to fabricate mounts and even had the gearbox in the Vixen at one point. The problem with the Holbay engine was that it was tall, similar to the Pinto and the compression was so high that on cold frosty mornings I had to bump start the car rolling it down hill,,,, lol either it started, or the back wheels would lockup.
So hence the Detective.
I've recently visited. The Retro rides website there's a chap on there who's currently building a Ginetta G28 with a Nissan turbo setup. If I'm not mistaken this is also an engine that has been fitted in a Vixen.
So ends my AA session, lol.
Darren
My recently completed first project was a Hillman Avenger Tiger replica complete with Leary orange and black paint job. The car was fitted with a Holbay H120 engine, which run on twin 40's. The chassis on the car had started to go, some time into the into Vixen rebuild the . I managed to fabricate mounts and even had the gearbox in the Vixen at one point. The problem with the Holbay engine was that it was tall, similar to the Pinto and the compression was so high that on cold frosty mornings I had to bump start the car rolling it down hill,,,, lol either it started, or the back wheels would lockup.
So hence the Detective.
I've recently visited. The Retro rides website there's a chap on there who's currently building a Ginetta G28 with a Nissan turbo setup. If I'm not mistaken this is also an engine that has been fitted in a Vixen.
So ends my AA session, lol.
Darren
OK, here goes, this one is for Neil,,, whilst initially trying engines in the chassis during the cars first build I did offer a Rover Vitesse lump in. My uncle was getting 300bhp from the rover lump long before TVR were. I probably wouldn't have got insurances for the car, or I'd have killed myself, so I decided against it.
My recently completed first project was a Hillman Avenger Tiger replica complete with Leary orange and black paint job. The car was fitted with a Holbay H120 engine, which run on twin 40's. The chassis on the car had started to go, some time into the into Vixen rebuild the . I managed to fabricate mounts and even had the gearbox in the Vixen at one point. The problem with the Holbay engine was that it was tall, similar to the Pinto and the compression was so high that on cold frosty mornings I had to bump start the car rolling it down hill,,,, lol either it started, or the back wheels would lockup.
So hence the Detective.
I've recently visited. The Retro rides website there's a chap on there who's currently building a Ginetta G28 with a Nissan turbo setup. If I'm not mistaken this is also an engine that has been fitted in a Vixen.
So ends my AA session, lol.
Darren
My recently completed first project was a Hillman Avenger Tiger replica complete with Leary orange and black paint job. The car was fitted with a Holbay H120 engine, which run on twin 40's. The chassis on the car had started to go, some time into the into Vixen rebuild the . I managed to fabricate mounts and even had the gearbox in the Vixen at one point. The problem with the Holbay engine was that it was tall, similar to the Pinto and the compression was so high that on cold frosty mornings I had to bump start the car rolling it down hill,,,, lol either it started, or the back wheels would lockup.
So hence the Detective.
I've recently visited. The Retro rides website there's a chap on there who's currently building a Ginetta G28 with a Nissan turbo setup. If I'm not mistaken this is also an engine that has been fitted in a Vixen.
So ends my AA session, lol.
Darren
Hi everyone,
Thanks again, I am grateful for all the ideas and guidance.
As mentioned, I need something that can loosely fit the classic look to secure the OK here. On this basis the current 13b (with Mazda cast all over it) and the modern Japanese engines will not work.
The 302SBF sounds and looks great but the discussion about Zetec and Duratec is appealing. To my simple mind, I would simply be using the old Ford block with a new head and modern engine management ... a light engine fits the old TVR (Lotus) ethos.
I sense that the Zetec is hugely cheaper than the Duratec but is less powerful and heavier. So it seems that this is just a matter of cost and desire for power. Assuming both engines will fit, fabrication of the engine mounts and exhaust route is quite manageable.
Daza - many thanks for the pictures of the Zetec in place.
Does anyone have any pictures of a Duratec in a Vixen?
Thanks
Nigel
Thanks again, I am grateful for all the ideas and guidance.
As mentioned, I need something that can loosely fit the classic look to secure the OK here. On this basis the current 13b (with Mazda cast all over it) and the modern Japanese engines will not work.
The 302SBF sounds and looks great but the discussion about Zetec and Duratec is appealing. To my simple mind, I would simply be using the old Ford block with a new head and modern engine management ... a light engine fits the old TVR (Lotus) ethos.
I sense that the Zetec is hugely cheaper than the Duratec but is less powerful and heavier. So it seems that this is just a matter of cost and desire for power. Assuming both engines will fit, fabrication of the engine mounts and exhaust route is quite manageable.
Daza - many thanks for the pictures of the Zetec in place.
Does anyone have any pictures of a Duratec in a Vixen?
Thanks
Nigel
heightswitch said:
What model Buicks does the 3.8 V6 come in then? Oviously not available in UK but it may be an option to ship a complete car or 2 if the engine is in the not very desirable but very cheap category??
N
Very interesting info here: http://www.gnttype.org/general/v6hist.htmlN
and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_V6_engine
Best,
B.
nigeljones said:
Hi everyone,
Thanks again, I am grateful for all the ideas and guidance.
As mentioned, I need something that can loosely fit the classic look to secure the OK here. On this basis the current 13b (with Mazda cast all over it) and the modern Japanese engines will not work.
The 302SBF sounds and looks great but the discussion about Zetec and Duratec is appealing. To my simple mind, I would simply be using the old Ford block with a new head and modern engine management ... a light engine fits the old TVR (Lotus) ethos.
I sense that the Zetec is hugely cheaper than the Duratec but is less powerful and heavier. So it seems that this is just a matter of cost and desire for power. Assuming both engines will fit, fabrication of the engine mounts and exhaust route is quite manageable.
Daza - many thanks for the pictures of the Zetec in place.
Does anyone have any pictures of a Duratec in a Vixen?
Thanks
Nigel
Nigel, Thanks again, I am grateful for all the ideas and guidance.
As mentioned, I need something that can loosely fit the classic look to secure the OK here. On this basis the current 13b (with Mazda cast all over it) and the modern Japanese engines will not work.
The 302SBF sounds and looks great but the discussion about Zetec and Duratec is appealing. To my simple mind, I would simply be using the old Ford block with a new head and modern engine management ... a light engine fits the old TVR (Lotus) ethos.
I sense that the Zetec is hugely cheaper than the Duratec but is less powerful and heavier. So it seems that this is just a matter of cost and desire for power. Assuming both engines will fit, fabrication of the engine mounts and exhaust route is quite manageable.
Daza - many thanks for the pictures of the Zetec in place.
Does anyone have any pictures of a Duratec in a Vixen?
Thanks
Nigel
Have you tried to "secure the OK" with the 13B? Grind off the casting marks, and put an NSU sticker on the top ... ?
Best,
B.
For what it's worth I went through a similar debate several years ago (2005) when looking for a better engine for a 2500M. I settled on the i4 Duratech. Mine is a 2.5 version of the 2.3 built by Scholars.
All the comments about it being expensive and less straightforward to fit than a Zetec are true. However, it is a generation newer in design and even ordering mine to optimise torque rather than power it still went to 280hp on Scholars' dynometer.
Only the comments at the time of Alan Wardropper, the owner of Scholars, but when I asked him to give pros n cons for the engine options he said, there is no debate, if you can afford an i4 buy one.
I'd suggest you talk to Alan, he only builds four cylinder engines.
Colin.
All the comments about it being expensive and less straightforward to fit than a Zetec are true. However, it is a generation newer in design and even ordering mine to optimise torque rather than power it still went to 280hp on Scholars' dynometer.
Only the comments at the time of Alan Wardropper, the owner of Scholars, but when I asked him to give pros n cons for the engine options he said, there is no debate, if you can afford an i4 buy one.
I'd suggest you talk to Alan, he only builds four cylinder engines.
Colin.
one thing i must point out:
you are really lucky in UK to have such an engine choice for histric cars.
over here you will immediately loose the histroic status (historic registration means a reg. date of 30y or older), nor you would get an mot easily, fitting a modern engine into a classic car.
engine swops are only legally historic within the same brand and same model range when the car was originally built.
you are really lucky in UK to have such an engine choice for histric cars.
over here you will immediately loose the histroic status (historic registration means a reg. date of 30y or older), nor you would get an mot easily, fitting a modern engine into a classic car.
engine swops are only legally historic within the same brand and same model range when the car was originally built.
Colin,
I agree with you, Alan really knows his stuff!!
There were alot of shamsters about, claiming silly figures for power and torque when I was looking for a rebuild.
Nigel,
I've already smoothed the castings off a spare rocker cover from the Zetec. You can even put a Silver top rocker cover on a Black top engine if you wished.
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/DAZA_1/IMAG...
Darren
I agree with you, Alan really knows his stuff!!
There were alot of shamsters about, claiming silly figures for power and torque when I was looking for a rebuild.
Nigel,
I've already smoothed the castings off a spare rocker cover from the Zetec. You can even put a Silver top rocker cover on a Black top engine if you wished.
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n51/DAZA_1/IMAG...
Darren
Slow M said:
ery interesting info here: http://www.gnttype.org/general/v6hist.html
and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_V6_engine
B.
That wikipedia is probably the best source, as you can see it was used a lot in the US, and appeared in a few other places round the globe....and here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_V6_engine
B.
Holden Commodores here (and in Aus) are the GM 'luxury saloon' and are very common, so they get cheaper with age... most are autos, but there are a few manual 5 speeders around. All came with Efi, later ones had sequential injection.
Comadis said:
one thing i must point out:
you are really lucky in UK to have such an engine choice for histric cars.
over here you will immediately loose the histroic status (historic registration means a reg. date of 30y or older), nor you would get an mot easily, fitting a modern engine into a classic car.
engine swops are only legally historic within the same brand and same model range when the car was originally built.
Interesting point. As with many other areas, is it likely that we will have to come into line with Europe on this also?you are really lucky in UK to have such an engine choice for histric cars.
over here you will immediately loose the histroic status (historic registration means a reg. date of 30y or older), nor you would get an mot easily, fitting a modern engine into a classic car.
engine swops are only legally historic within the same brand and same model range when the car was originally built.
Dear all,
Thanks again everyone. I never imagined I would get so much help, this is really great. I have almost decided to go with a 2.3 Duratec and a 5 or 6 speed 'box. Going the 'light as possible' / lotus route.
Posters have mentioned a crate Cosworth engine from Burton as one source or getting a custom build from Scholar Engines. I appreciate that these are quite a premium to a self build but I am in Asia so buying parts and rebuilding / upgrading here could take some time and be a challenge.
Do any of you have any advice / guidance / preferences or advice between Cosworth and Schholar or other cost effective builders?
Any recommendations on a box to match (at say 250bhp)? Do I need to worry about which boxes will fit in the chassis, a T9 or a Quaiffe etc? They fit the space, any recommended suppliers?
Many thanks,
Nigel
Thanks again everyone. I never imagined I would get so much help, this is really great. I have almost decided to go with a 2.3 Duratec and a 5 or 6 speed 'box. Going the 'light as possible' / lotus route.
Posters have mentioned a crate Cosworth engine from Burton as one source or getting a custom build from Scholar Engines. I appreciate that these are quite a premium to a self build but I am in Asia so buying parts and rebuilding / upgrading here could take some time and be a challenge.
Do any of you have any advice / guidance / preferences or advice between Cosworth and Schholar or other cost effective builders?
Any recommendations on a box to match (at say 250bhp)? Do I need to worry about which boxes will fit in the chassis, a T9 or a Quaiffe etc? They fit the space, any recommended suppliers?
Many thanks,
Nigel
Darren,
Good question but there are workshops and race teams here that can handle the maintenance. I am confidence that regular maintenance and tweaking the ECU for different grades of fuel is all manageable. The challenge is the starting point for the engine. I could buy and ship a used engine, strip and then start ordering parts and tuning bits but each steps requires another international shipment .... and there is less knowledge here on how to extract good power. I am planning to get this project done by the summer (2012) hence thinking of finding a builder in the UK and then shipping!
You guys are blessed with great automotive support in the UK. From my international perspective I can look back to the UK with great pride on the knowledge and expertise there is in the UK. You guys are lucky (and I am lucky you are all helping me
).
Advice on better builders?
I forgot to mention, I won't run with a heater box so plan to mount as far back as possible (like Moto above) so getting a gearbox where I can locate the lever in different positions will allow me to get the engine and box right back with the gear lever in a manageable position. Moto - nice suspension, where did you get the new wishbones?
Thanks,
Good question but there are workshops and race teams here that can handle the maintenance. I am confidence that regular maintenance and tweaking the ECU for different grades of fuel is all manageable. The challenge is the starting point for the engine. I could buy and ship a used engine, strip and then start ordering parts and tuning bits but each steps requires another international shipment .... and there is less knowledge here on how to extract good power. I am planning to get this project done by the summer (2012) hence thinking of finding a builder in the UK and then shipping!
You guys are blessed with great automotive support in the UK. From my international perspective I can look back to the UK with great pride on the knowledge and expertise there is in the UK. You guys are lucky (and I am lucky you are all helping me
).Advice on better builders?
I forgot to mention, I won't run with a heater box so plan to mount as far back as possible (like Moto above) so getting a gearbox where I can locate the lever in different positions will allow me to get the engine and box right back with the gear lever in a manageable position. Moto - nice suspension, where did you get the new wishbones?
Thanks,
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