Vixen - engine swap - ideas and guidance please
Discussion
[quote=heightswitch]
The bonnet that is actually on the car is the bonnet from Kerry Horans racing griffith which won everything in the late 80's early 90's. I also have another Griffith bonnet without Vents but dad wanted the vents.
And what a lovely piece of provenance to drive behind!
The bonnet that is actually on the car is the bonnet from Kerry Horans racing griffith which won everything in the late 80's early 90's. I also have another Griffith bonnet without Vents but dad wanted the vents.
And what a lovely piece of provenance to drive behind!
dryden]eightswitch said:
The bonnet that is actually on the car is the bonnet from Kerry Horans racing griffith which won everything in the late 80's early 90's. I also have another Griffith bonnet without Vents but dad wanted the vents.
And what a lovely piece of provenance to drive behind!
Very True great Provenance maybe its a subject for a separate thread but in classic TVR circles at what point does a project turn from being a restoration to a creation I put my own project on the line here as well as if it was a restoration I would be taking the V8 out and putting the V6 back in.And what a lovely piece of provenance to drive behind!
We don't see AC Ace cars being rebuilt with LS engines in or high back racing seats and low profile tyres or at least I hope we don't.
But we seen to see it as acceptable in the older same period TVR cars we do need to be careful that one day an original car will be such a rare thing.
A
Ps sorry taking the tread off subject
heightswitch said:
prideaux said:
Very True great Provenance maybe its a subject for a separate thread but in classic TVR circles at what point does a project turn from being a restoration to a creation I put my own project on the line here as well as if it was a restoration I would be taking the V8 out and putting the V6 back in.
We don't see AC Ace cars being rebuilt with LS engines in or high back racing seats and low profile tyres or at least I hope we don't.
But we seen to see it as acceptable in the older same period TVR cars we do need to be careful that one day an original car will be such a rare thing.
A
Ps sorry taking the tread off subject
you're missing the point Andrew…We don't see AC Ace cars being rebuilt with LS engines in or high back racing seats and low profile tyres or at least I hope we don't.
But we seen to see it as acceptable in the older same period TVR cars we do need to be careful that one day an original car will be such a rare thing.
A
Ps sorry taking the tread off subject
The cobra was a hot rodded Ace.
The griffith a Hot rodded Grantura / 1800S
Thats exactly what happened to them in period..They were fettled and modified!
Also people don't modify original cobras now because they are worth a few million each and there are lots of kits out there which are cheaper..Plus, generally you can't really improve on a roller-skate fitted with a 7ltr Big Block??
Vixens are worth buttons in comparison and there are no kits about, well not strictly true but you know what I mean.
TVR's were all about fettling and driving, fixing and driving, racing and driving, modifying and tweaking….They were never a polishers car..Nothing wrong with having original cars but similarly nothing wrong with modifying them either..Some people like nice original cars and some like to play and improve them.
There only bits of placcy and tube when all is done?? Don't get too anal Andrew..Thats exactly what spoils the car movement. You've ruined a Tuscan V6 and I've ruined 2 vixens…or you have created something you love and are preserving it for future generations to enjoy……
If dad hadn't bought that vixen it would have ended up scrapped…Virtually nothing was re-usable….They're only Cars!!
N.
Its just an interesting discussion and I wonder in 30 years time if God spares me how both our old TVRs and the newer Griffiths and Sagaris models will be perceived.
I don't think it spoils the classic car movement as it helps that people have different approaches and desires and without that it would become stale I personally see all sides and because of this have encouraged the Pre 80s to widen the awards to 4 different awards from the Peoples Choice Voted by the people there then 3 catagories best restored car finished in the last 18 months best modified car to embrace the kind of build your doing and then the most important award of all the Preservation Class award for cars that have been used maintained and never fully restored and I am not talking about Triggers Broom
but those special cars that may not be the shinny garage queen but are very very special and something you or I could never replicate or for that matter own as we would want to change them 
By the way the Griffith was no hot rod it was a production car yes derived from the Grantura and later the 1800s
A
Not wanting to upset any one. But early griff 200 surely could well be called hot rods. Take a sweet handling light car. Remove the engine. Bash hell out of the chassis to make the engine fit ,looked like a large clump hammer was used !!!!
Use the same small radiator so had to overheat. Also the diff ,drive train ,brakes etc all left so can't say a production car more like a hot rod made in a back street garage. Later ones could well be called production but first ones ????? Sorry richard
Use the same small radiator so had to overheat. Also the diff ,drive train ,brakes etc all left so can't say a production car more like a hot rod made in a back street garage. Later ones could well be called production but first ones ????? Sorry richard
As I've said elsewhere, more than once, I always thought of TVR cars as manufactured kit cars.
I've built a few kits in my time, and almost right though, the TVR models would qualify as 'kits' to me. Parts from all over the place, with only bodies and chassis made at/by the factory, then assembled.
I've always though the TVRs were pretty well engineered though, whereas kits used to span the range from 'unsafe' to 'excellent' in their engineering. They are quirky and have some dumb stuff though, the wedges too.
but they are fun to drive and worth the time and hassle, and I sometimes wonder "what parts would TVR themselves use for my Vixen (or Wedge) if they were building it today ?"
I've built a few kits in my time, and almost right though, the TVR models would qualify as 'kits' to me. Parts from all over the place, with only bodies and chassis made at/by the factory, then assembled.
I've always though the TVRs were pretty well engineered though, whereas kits used to span the range from 'unsafe' to 'excellent' in their engineering. They are quirky and have some dumb stuff though, the wedges too.
but they are fun to drive and worth the time and hassle, and I sometimes wonder "what parts would TVR themselves use for my Vixen (or Wedge) if they were building it today ?"
griff 200 said:
Not wanting to upset any one. But early griff 200 surely could well be called hot rods. Take a sweet handling light car. Remove the engine. Bash hell out of the chassis to make the engine fit ,looked like a large clump hammer was used !!!!
Use the same small radiator so had to overheat. Also the diff ,drive train ,brakes etc all left so can't say a production car more like a hot rod made in a back street garage. Later ones could well be called production but first ones ????? Sorry richard
Richard I get your drift but it was in a Ford Dealership and my definition of a hot rod is a one off custom built massive powered car designed to go fast in a straight line.Use the same small radiator so had to overheat. Also the diff ,drive train ,brakes etc all left so can't say a production car more like a hot rod made in a back street garage. Later ones could well be called production but first ones ????? Sorry richard
I guess that could be applied to the Griffith but it became one of the most unique fast production cars of its time.
And when on track yes with some clever mods it was amazing with the right driver I wish I had been old enough to witness Gerry Marshal taking it sideways round the corners.
And make AC cobras at 10 time the price sulk back at the pits.
As for TVRs early ones being kits well they where sold that way for cost reasons however a weekends work for a few lads and they where built so more like a nearly finished car.
In looking at later cars in bits such as wedges and S1s then I can safely say the pre 80s cars where far better engineered and built and if selling them as a kit created that I will have a kit any day I could see the Wedge as a Kit wow people would never have bothered finishing them as they would have thought hey that cant be right.
We are lucky enough to have some of the greatest little cars and I for one think its an honour to be there custodian.
Some might say well it was a wreck and if we had not bought it would be scrapped well the scrap value is not really worth the cost of taking them apart due to the fiberglass shell.
So if that wreck was sitting in a field today someone would take it on and restore that's why every year we see more cars appearing that we thought where lost as sitting in a shed they don't rot away to nothing.
We will see more and the higher the value of cars today the more justification for restoring them.
A
A
Very well said that man. Perhaps there is so much pleasure in re building them is due to the rebuild will be better than new. But it must be said we have to thank the hundreds of people who have been the keeper these cars unrestored for years in there barns fields etc. and not scraping them as at the time as you rightly said they had little or no real cash value but just loved them like me for what they are!!!!! Richard (Or is it just me ?)
griff 200 said:
Very well said that man. Perhaps there is so much pleasure in re building them is due to the rebuild will be better than new. But it must be said we have to thank the hundreds of people who have been the keeper these cars unrestored for years in there barns fields etc. and not scraping them as at the time as you rightly said they had little or no real cash value but just loved them like me for what they are!!!!! Richard (Or is it just me ?)
Yes Thanks to all and you have done your bit on that count 
A
heightswitch said:
Don't over glamourise it Andrew or embellish what the whole operation really was. Similarly don't look at a TVR with rose tinted specs. The reason they get restored and fettled is because they are bits of simple big meccano originally built in an old brick shed in Blackpool. Thats the charm..steering columns attached to ply dashboards with a bent bit of metal secured via a jubilee clip for example can never be called engineering..The original griffith was a shoe horning job capable of being executed by any garagiste. Don't try to make them into a mythical unicorn..The reason we love them is for precisely the reason that they aren't a sterile mass produced characterless piece of tin..But similarly don't compare them to a real supercar. They got better and better the longer the company went on but will never approach the build quality of a manufactured car which has millions spent on pre production tooling…similarly look at most good kit cars today and the engineering far exceeds anything ever produced by TVR in the 80's and 90's Thats just the march of time and technology being made available to smaller concerns..Lazer cutting, 3d printing, 5 axis computer mills are all available much more cheaply today….This technology was considered space age in the 90's
I also don't entirely agree with your analogy about value being intrinsically linked with numbers restored. every car I have ever restored was restored out of love for the marque and not because it would be worth more in the end. for some this is an issue, for others not. Increasing value is a good and bad thing..good for those looking to make money. bad for the average man where an aspirational car is taken out of his financial grasp. I am glad I already have 2 / 3 TVR's I couldn't justify buying a basket case to restore today at the prices they sell for. 10 years ago a vixen could be had for 1k and it would be worth 5-8k fully restored. Today a charlatan wants 5-6k for a hulk which still only seems to be worth 12-15k restored. yes they will go up in value but the profit seems to be with the scrap dealer IMHO.
N.
Well for someone who claims to love the cars you don't exactly do a great job of singing there praises I also don't entirely agree with your analogy about value being intrinsically linked with numbers restored. every car I have ever restored was restored out of love for the marque and not because it would be worth more in the end. for some this is an issue, for others not. Increasing value is a good and bad thing..good for those looking to make money. bad for the average man where an aspirational car is taken out of his financial grasp. I am glad I already have 2 / 3 TVR's I couldn't justify buying a basket case to restore today at the prices they sell for. 10 years ago a vixen could be had for 1k and it would be worth 5-8k fully restored. Today a charlatan wants 5-6k for a hulk which still only seems to be worth 12-15k restored. yes they will go up in value but the profit seems to be with the scrap dealer IMHO.
N.
What your basically saying then is that they where rubbish cars and with the assistance of Google and a shed full of tools you can make them better.
Afraid Neil its not about being Anal about it but about a point of view like most people I respect others points of view including yours but remember that what your take on the cars is not always shared by others and likewise my view.
However I do see that the preservation of original cars where there is a small pool of cars is vital.
And if my Tuscan had originally been restored to V6 then I would never have changed her but as the conversion was so good I decided to finish the job properly as there have been too many V8s dropped into cars and called Tuscan V8s and as you know its far more than that.
By the way the jubilee clip was a fantastic piece of engineering I wish I had a Patent on it.
And by the way neither of us have ever properly restored a car re built yes restoration IMOP is putting back to its original state even the bad bits
Andrew
Edited by prideaux on Saturday 9th August 09:01
Andrew
I think you are barking up the wrong tree.
Just about every single old (and new) TVR has been modified at some point in it's life.
TVR's engineering wasn't perfect but 'it was OK for the time'
TVRs will 'never' be revered in high classic car circles, because a) they weren't revolutionary, E-Type, Mini, Citreon DS, etc, b) weren't supercars (Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc) and c) unlike companies like Lotus they didn't have a factory backed high profile motorsport presence
I have never seen a 'restored TVR' without either an original paint finish (modern paint type or colour) or an original chassis finish, there are better technologies out there today, so why shouldn't they be used. And that's before all the 'modern' restoration other improvements.
TVR were effectively 'professional' men in sheds, now there is nothing wrong with that, but it has to be accepted for what it is.
Please everyone just enjoy the cars, and if that means modding the hell out of them, then just do it (hell there are even pictures in 70's/80's Sprints of M series cars with massive Carlos Fandango spoilers on the back of them!!! And one forum member dropped a rover V8 with two sequential turbochargers into an M, modding has always gone on and will continue to do so. Personally I reckon a Vixen with an S2000 engine it would be absolutely storming!!!
I think you are barking up the wrong tree.
Just about every single old (and new) TVR has been modified at some point in it's life.
TVR's engineering wasn't perfect but 'it was OK for the time'
TVRs will 'never' be revered in high classic car circles, because a) they weren't revolutionary, E-Type, Mini, Citreon DS, etc, b) weren't supercars (Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc) and c) unlike companies like Lotus they didn't have a factory backed high profile motorsport presence
I have never seen a 'restored TVR' without either an original paint finish (modern paint type or colour) or an original chassis finish, there are better technologies out there today, so why shouldn't they be used. And that's before all the 'modern' restoration other improvements.
TVR were effectively 'professional' men in sheds, now there is nothing wrong with that, but it has to be accepted for what it is.
Please everyone just enjoy the cars, and if that means modding the hell out of them, then just do it (hell there are even pictures in 70's/80's Sprints of M series cars with massive Carlos Fandango spoilers on the back of them!!! And one forum member dropped a rover V8 with two sequential turbochargers into an M, modding has always gone on and will continue to do so. Personally I reckon a Vixen with an S2000 engine it would be absolutely storming!!!
heightswitch said:
I am not sure that I said anything in the statement you have made Andrew 
I would also advise that I have been restoring cars for a very long time..Long before I ever came into TVR's !
Neil I think you have hit the nail on the head there spot on yes you have and sadly have a chip on your shoulder towards anyone new coming in on what you think is you expertise. I would also advise that I have been restoring cars for a very long time..Long before I ever came into TVR's !Especially if there approach is different to your own you would get far more pleasure from both the cars and the forum if you like myself respected all views approaches and methods and simply shared.
I seem to see over the years a number on here pick holes with everything others do as if its a sport for there own titillation.
A good teacher encourages and guides and I am sure that you have much knowledge to share however you don't know it all and sometimes Google either is wrong or lets you down.
I have only been doing it for three years and without some great help and knowledge shared from some super people I would not achieve much and have much to learn and am enjoying the chalenge.
I get many off line e mails saying I saw this you did and it may be better to do it this way etc and that is fantastic and what the forum the TVR community is about and many jobs I have had to do twice.
Well done for spending years Modifying cars that's great but there is a different approach which does not make yours wrong or theres right its just different.
I have to say restoring as OE is not an easy task as you said in another post when you come to trimming your Dads car you might glue in a load of blocks and screw it all in yes not OE but a far easier way of doing it and my Vixen is sort of done that way but with alloy frame and captive treads and allen key fasteners and cups Not OE but done so well that I would not change it.
Enjoy you CARS and LIFE
DavidY said:
Andrew
I think you are barking up the wrong tree.
Just about every single old (and new) TVR has been modified at some point in it's life.
TVR's engineering wasn't perfect but 'it was OK for the time'
TVRs will 'never' be revered in high classic car circles, because a) they weren't revolutionary, E-Type, Mini, Citreon DS, etc, b) weren't supercars (Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc) and c) unlike companies like Lotus they didn't have a factory backed high profile motorsport presence
I have never seen a 'restored TVR' without either an original paint finish (modern paint type or colour) or an original chassis finish, there are better technologies out there today, so why shouldn't they be used. And that's before all the 'modern' restoration other improvements.
TVR were effectively 'professional' men in sheds, now there is nothing wrong with that, but it has to be accepted for what it is.
Please everyone just enjoy the cars, and if that means modding the hell out of them, then just do it (hell there are even pictures in 70's/80's Sprints of M series cars with massive Carlos Fandango spoilers on the back of them!!! And one forum member dropped a rover V8 with two sequential turbochargers into an M, modding has always gone on and will continue to do so. Personally I reckon a Vixen with an S2000 engine it would be absolutely storming!!!
Thanks David I think you are barking up the wrong tree.
Just about every single old (and new) TVR has been modified at some point in it's life.
TVR's engineering wasn't perfect but 'it was OK for the time'
TVRs will 'never' be revered in high classic car circles, because a) they weren't revolutionary, E-Type, Mini, Citreon DS, etc, b) weren't supercars (Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc) and c) unlike companies like Lotus they didn't have a factory backed high profile motorsport presence
I have never seen a 'restored TVR' without either an original paint finish (modern paint type or colour) or an original chassis finish, there are better technologies out there today, so why shouldn't they be used. And that's before all the 'modern' restoration other improvements.
TVR were effectively 'professional' men in sheds, now there is nothing wrong with that, but it has to be accepted for what it is.
Please everyone just enjoy the cars, and if that means modding the hell out of them, then just do it (hell there are even pictures in 70's/80's Sprints of M series cars with massive Carlos Fandango spoilers on the back of them!!! And one forum member dropped a rover V8 with two sequential turbochargers into an M, modding has always gone on and will continue to do so. Personally I reckon a Vixen with an S2000 engine it would be absolutely storming!!!
As I said before there are many views and approaches and yes most have been modified and including mine and sympathetic restorations is what is mine but does not mean I am not fascinated with a nice modified car I am its just not for me.
A
heightswitch said:
Again andrew I don't recall having said anything you have alluded to in this statement. Certainly not sure as to where your opinion is formed regarding chips. I would probably be crinkle cut though! I certainly always applaud anyone new coming into the TVR world. I am sure we share a lot of common ground.
N.
I am sure we do N.
Enjoy
A
prideaux said:
DavidY said:
Andrew
I think you are barking up the wrong tree.
Just about every single old (and new) TVR has been modified at some point in it's life.
TVR's engineering wasn't perfect but 'it was OK for the time'
TVRs will 'never' be revered in high classic car circles, because a) they weren't revolutionary, E-Type, Mini, Citreon DS, etc, b) weren't supercars (Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc) and c) unlike companies like Lotus they didn't have a factory backed high profile motorsport presence
I have never seen a 'restored TVR' without either an original paint finish (modern paint type or colour) or an original chassis finish, there are better technologies out there today, so why shouldn't they be used. And that's before all the 'modern' restoration other improvements.
TVR were effectively 'professional' men in sheds, now there is nothing wrong with that, but it has to be accepted for what it is.
Please everyone just enjoy the cars, and if that means modding the hell out of them, then just do it (hell there are even pictures in 70's/80's Sprints of M series cars with massive Carlos Fandango spoilers on the back of them!!! And one forum member dropped a rover V8 with two sequential turbochargers into an M, modding has always gone on and will continue to do so. Personally I reckon a Vixen with an S2000 engine it would be absolutely storming!!!
Thanks David I think you are barking up the wrong tree.
Just about every single old (and new) TVR has been modified at some point in it's life.
TVR's engineering wasn't perfect but 'it was OK for the time'
TVRs will 'never' be revered in high classic car circles, because a) they weren't revolutionary, E-Type, Mini, Citreon DS, etc, b) weren't supercars (Ferrari, Lamborghini, etc) and c) unlike companies like Lotus they didn't have a factory backed high profile motorsport presence
I have never seen a 'restored TVR' without either an original paint finish (modern paint type or colour) or an original chassis finish, there are better technologies out there today, so why shouldn't they be used. And that's before all the 'modern' restoration other improvements.
TVR were effectively 'professional' men in sheds, now there is nothing wrong with that, but it has to be accepted for what it is.
Please everyone just enjoy the cars, and if that means modding the hell out of them, then just do it (hell there are even pictures in 70's/80's Sprints of M series cars with massive Carlos Fandango spoilers on the back of them!!! And one forum member dropped a rover V8 with two sequential turbochargers into an M, modding has always gone on and will continue to do so. Personally I reckon a Vixen with an S2000 engine it would be absolutely storming!!!
As I said before there are many views and approaches and yes most have been modified and including mine and sympathetic restorations is what is mine but does not mean I am not fascinated with a nice modified car I am its just not for me.
A
owning a TVR or low production british car, is a very individual thing, and attracts people who may want to tinker or modify
the beauty of these cars is their simplicity, the fact that they can be modified and improved fairly easily. The driving experience is more involving than most classics, and this also lends itself to performance orientated improvements
Keeping them original or updating/improving are both appealing
I have a 1963 Ginetta G4, which still had its original chassis, engine, gearbox.. so in restoring it i felt it appropriate to try to keep it original, also with the aim of historic racing. But other Ginettas have been heavily modified in period and now, and it seems almost compulsory on some models..
the classics TVRs i view in the same vein as ginetta, marcos, lotus.. and they are better for it
the beauty of these cars is their simplicity, the fact that they can be modified and improved fairly easily. The driving experience is more involving than most classics, and this also lends itself to performance orientated improvements
Keeping them original or updating/improving are both appealing
I have a 1963 Ginetta G4, which still had its original chassis, engine, gearbox.. so in restoring it i felt it appropriate to try to keep it original, also with the aim of historic racing. But other Ginettas have been heavily modified in period and now, and it seems almost compulsory on some models..
the classics TVRs i view in the same vein as ginetta, marcos, lotus.. and they are better for it
There are two schools - road going cars and race cars. Cars that are raced are more likely to be developed (read modified) because performance gains are the goal. Road going cars are likely to stay more original because they don't demand the x% improvement in ultimate speed. They carry out their function to a satisfactory level without much modification. There is some side entertainment value in watching each group argue their point but it gets a bit boring when it becomes the main element of every topic.
On topic, I think the crossflow is an under-rated engine. When I purchased the Vixen, my intention was to swap it for a twin-cam or BDA but I now love the crossflow. It's not standard (1760cc with twin webers) but it just sounds fantastic and has enough power (120ish bhp) for road use or fun at track days. A cam change and 140-150bhp is easily achievable with 170+bhp not uncommon. I reckon a well sorted, crossflow engined Vixen could put in equally good lap times (especially on shorter tracks) as many newer or bigger engined Vixens. The only downside of the crossflow is high speed touring and that's largely down to the 4 speed gearbox, which can be swapped for a 5 speed anyway.
On topic, I think the crossflow is an under-rated engine. When I purchased the Vixen, my intention was to swap it for a twin-cam or BDA but I now love the crossflow. It's not standard (1760cc with twin webers) but it just sounds fantastic and has enough power (120ish bhp) for road use or fun at track days. A cam change and 140-150bhp is easily achievable with 170+bhp not uncommon. I reckon a well sorted, crossflow engined Vixen could put in equally good lap times (especially on shorter tracks) as many newer or bigger engined Vixens. The only downside of the crossflow is high speed touring and that's largely down to the 4 speed gearbox, which can be swapped for a 5 speed anyway.
Absolutely agree with the above. The fact that even when they came out of Blackpool they were not identical and have subsequently reflected the passions and interests of the various owners does make these cars particularly interesting. Let's keep talking about the cars!
With that in mind, here's another vote for the crossflow. I guess for me one of the attractions is that few engines are easier to work on, they can be made to give the heavier V6 a run for it's money - especially on a bendy road. I accept they they aren't the most fuel efficient engine in the world and may coat your chassis rails with preservative but I think they sound great when given a squirt and they are obviously inextricably linked with Vixens - which for some of us is a factor.
It's very easy to become obsessed with simple power figures but 130 bhp in one engine will feel very different to the same power output from another lump dropped into the same car. The way the engine sounds and the way that it compliments the way the car looks and handles is I believe a factor well worth thinking about before making a final decision on a transplant. Of course the type of driving experience required and personal objectives for the car will drive engine choice. Good thread.
With that in mind, here's another vote for the crossflow. I guess for me one of the attractions is that few engines are easier to work on, they can be made to give the heavier V6 a run for it's money - especially on a bendy road. I accept they they aren't the most fuel efficient engine in the world and may coat your chassis rails with preservative but I think they sound great when given a squirt and they are obviously inextricably linked with Vixens - which for some of us is a factor.
It's very easy to become obsessed with simple power figures but 130 bhp in one engine will feel very different to the same power output from another lump dropped into the same car. The way the engine sounds and the way that it compliments the way the car looks and handles is I believe a factor well worth thinking about before making a final decision on a transplant. Of course the type of driving experience required and personal objectives for the car will drive engine choice. Good thread.
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