Vixen crush-tubes - Where to purchase
Discussion
Seem to be a lot of opinions being posted on this subject matter tonight by persons who know all about bearings and setting them up or rather "The Principle" of setting them up without them actually ever doing it on the vehicles described?? isn't the internet a wonderful place...me thinks its time for me to retire to the garage and abandon all this computer nonsense....
To those of you who wish to use the triumph supplied crush tubes..good luck both finding these mythical items and then even better luck successfully applying your knowledge in doing so.
N.
http://classifieds.pistonheads.com/classifieds/par...
To those of you who wish to use the triumph supplied crush tubes..good luck both finding these mythical items and then even better luck successfully applying your knowledge in doing so.
N.
http://classifieds.pistonheads.com/classifieds/par...
Edited by heightswitch on Monday 19th November 22:10
Well there seems to be two distinct sides here.... fair enough.
What is said about the tubes, their welds etc, and the fact that they can 'fail' (which I assume means 'crush more' when they should not) all makes sense. And also how tubes might not crush at all if they are the wrong spec...
I can see therefore why the solid spacer viewpoint (especially for racers) is held by some too.
Downside of the solid ones is that they obviously have to be sized within a few thou, not a quick task, and probably needs to be reassembled at least twice to be sure ...
All good info to me anyway. Thanks for answers.
What is said about the tubes, their welds etc, and the fact that they can 'fail' (which I assume means 'crush more' when they should not) all makes sense. And also how tubes might not crush at all if they are the wrong spec...
I can see therefore why the solid spacer viewpoint (especially for racers) is held by some too.
Downside of the solid ones is that they obviously have to be sized within a few thou, not a quick task, and probably needs to be reassembled at least twice to be sure ...
All good info to me anyway. Thanks for answers.
My answer, done correctly would be yes. And don't forget to crack test the stub axle. Neither will work if it breaks. Most of the ones I have done (not as many as Adrian) have been road cars but on those cars which the owners have been silly enough to DRIVE them. I know, I know. Sorry but the treatment just doesn't,t work for me.
This post now looks as though I am talking to myself. Maybe I am, maybe I just had a dream that eric0 had posted and I had replied. My dream was that eric0 had posted that there was no difference between squash tubes and solid spacers and once fitted they did nothing. Maybe I need something to make me sleep (more beer?). I can,t understand why people make overwhelming statements and then delete them, this is a discussion forum and surely all opinions are valid, especially when he is an engineer.
This post now looks as though I am talking to myself. Maybe I am, maybe I just had a dream that eric0 had posted and I had replied. My dream was that eric0 had posted that there was no difference between squash tubes and solid spacers and once fitted they did nothing. Maybe I need something to make me sleep (more beer?). I can,t understand why people make overwhelming statements and then delete them, this is a discussion forum and surely all opinions are valid, especially when he is an engineer.
Edited by thegamekeeper on Tuesday 20th November 10:55
My comments and suggestions were made after reading this article.
Yes, there are some obvious differences to the "TR6" set up but it's not worlds apart is it?
phillpot said:
My comments and suggestions were made after reading this article.
Yes, there are some obvious differences to the "TR6" set up but it's not worlds apart is it?
Utterly differentYes, there are some obvious differences to the "TR6" set up but it's not worlds apart is it?
eric0 said:
Sorry,
note to self, always preview.
Your right the answer should have been yes because a spacer will positively / soildly clamp the inner races.
I need some lunch.
eric0, I,ll quote you before you delete this and make me look silly (not difficult I hear you say). The fundamental fault with the squash tube is its a squash tube and as such keeps squshing with lateral ie cornering loads leading to bearing end float. I keep bleating on about crack testing the quill shafts but they are the next flaw in the original set up. Imagine the weight of the wheel and tyre on the outer end of the hub, crashing over pot holes, going up and down, round and round. With end float eventually it will behave like a paper clip and break across the outer radius of the outer bearing, the point of maximum "leverage". I consider quill shafts as a service item, especially on race cars, sticky tyres, rumble strips, power, drivers.note to self, always preview.
Your right the answer should have been yes because a spacer will positively / soildly clamp the inner races.
I need some lunch.
Edited by eric0 on Tuesday 20th November 12:02
With a new or good quill shaft solid spacers helps to eliminate both the potential weaknesses. They can be machined to give 1 thou or less endfloat but equally importantly with the correct tolerances can effectively "thicken" the diameter of the shaft between the bearings,as you say solidly clamping the inner races and producing a MUCH stronger assembly.
I fitted solid spacers , along with a few other trick bits to my Grantura about 20 years ago and have never had any end float in the bearings and I use it. Using quality bearings, quality oil seals and synthetic lubricant its about as good as you can acheive with out completely engineering it to take thicker quill shafts. I am not saying they will never fail but I am saying that with squash tubes they probably eventually will.
Anyone want to chat about TR6 hubs?
Edited by thegamekeeper on Tuesday 20th November 12:38
eric0 said:
There's a guy i work with who would kill me with his bare hands if i said to him that a sleeve can improve shaft stiffness, thereby reducing deflection! It must have a slight beneficial effect though, you could even make it a couple of thou interference fit i suppose?
Maybe you should mention it to him then. Its not actually what I said.Anyone wants to talk about shaft stiffness is on the wrong website.
Edited by thegamekeeper on Tuesday 20th November 14:04
I think. the forums should be called "Regurgiheads"
It never ceases to amase me how the levels of experience of persons increases from day to day on this forum via the reading of articles etc etc rather than practical knowledge
So all the armchair experts are now reading a few articles and eventually waking up to smell the coffee are they..
Stroll on!!
It never ceases to amase me how the levels of experience of persons increases from day to day on this forum via the reading of articles etc etc rather than practical knowledge
So all the armchair experts are now reading a few articles and eventually waking up to smell the coffee are they..
Stroll on!!
heightswitch said:
I think. the forums should be called "Regurgiheads"
It never ceases to amase me how the levels of experience of persons increases from day to day on this forum via the reading of articles etc etc rather than practical knowledge
So all the armchair experts are now reading a few articles and eventually waking up to smell the coffee are they..
Stroll on!!
Calm down. Calm down. (in one of those scouse accents)It never ceases to amase me how the levels of experience of persons increases from day to day on this forum via the reading of articles etc etc rather than practical knowledge
So all the armchair experts are now reading a few articles and eventually waking up to smell the coffee are they..
Stroll on!!
Adrian@ said:
jpa said:
So how many known quill shaft failures (caused by the use of crush tubes) or crush tube failures have people had experience of?
Surely if it is only one it is too many...Adrian@
Would it be enough to say that I stopped working on the standard rear Vixen upright all together, period. I USED to have these in on an exchange basis (when people had my TR/M series bearing unit) with the idea of rebuilding them to sell on but after stripping them, condemned most of them through failures of one kind or another.
I gifted the stub axles to the workshop next door to create production line turntables for the Honda factory!!
Adrian@
I gifted the stub axles to the workshop next door to create production line turntables for the Honda factory!!
Adrian@
Only Google has the answer.....
But unfortunately only for a Toyota differential.
Crush Sleeve or Solid Spacer?
When installing the pinion, there are two ways to set the bearing preload. One is to use a tubular crush sleeve. With this method a non-reusable crush tube is collapsed between the bearings when the assembly is tightened. The second method uses a solid cast iron spacer in place of a crush sleeve. Obviously, the solid spacer does not collapse, so shims are used with the solid spacer to accurately set the bearing preload. Shims are added and subtracted to get the proper preload. Toyota has used both methods over the years, with the solid spacers used mostly in the early years.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both methods. The solid spacer takes more effort to install, but many consider it more stout. The claim is that should the pinion flange take a very hard hit on a rock or other immovable object, it is possible that a crush sleeve could be impacted and crushed slightly more. When this happens it leaves some freeplay in the bearings, and the assembly loosens slightly.
How critical this difference is, cannot be quantified easily. Plenty of people have run crush sleeves for years with no problems, while others have reported problems with crush sleeves being damaged on the trail.
Note also that the best quality crush sleeves (~$18-20) come straight from the dealer. These are seamless ones with about 0.078" wall thickness. All aftermarket ones I have seen have been seamed tube, with some as thin as 0.055".
There are a number of misconceptions about the function and effect of the crush sleeve or spacer. Neither affects the pinion checking distance. Also, when a crush sleeve is used, the flange nut is not tightened to a specific fastener torque, rather the nut is tightened until a specific bearing preload is achieved (as measured at the pinion flange). When a solid spacer is used, there is a specified fastener torque for the flange nut. According to a 1980 factory repair manual, this is 123 to 151 ft. lb.
But unfortunately only for a Toyota differential.
Crush Sleeve or Solid Spacer?
When installing the pinion, there are two ways to set the bearing preload. One is to use a tubular crush sleeve. With this method a non-reusable crush tube is collapsed between the bearings when the assembly is tightened. The second method uses a solid cast iron spacer in place of a crush sleeve. Obviously, the solid spacer does not collapse, so shims are used with the solid spacer to accurately set the bearing preload. Shims are added and subtracted to get the proper preload. Toyota has used both methods over the years, with the solid spacers used mostly in the early years.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both methods. The solid spacer takes more effort to install, but many consider it more stout. The claim is that should the pinion flange take a very hard hit on a rock or other immovable object, it is possible that a crush sleeve could be impacted and crushed slightly more. When this happens it leaves some freeplay in the bearings, and the assembly loosens slightly.
How critical this difference is, cannot be quantified easily. Plenty of people have run crush sleeves for years with no problems, while others have reported problems with crush sleeves being damaged on the trail.
Note also that the best quality crush sleeves (~$18-20) come straight from the dealer. These are seamless ones with about 0.078" wall thickness. All aftermarket ones I have seen have been seamed tube, with some as thin as 0.055".
There are a number of misconceptions about the function and effect of the crush sleeve or spacer. Neither affects the pinion checking distance. Also, when a crush sleeve is used, the flange nut is not tightened to a specific fastener torque, rather the nut is tightened until a specific bearing preload is achieved (as measured at the pinion flange). When a solid spacer is used, there is a specified fastener torque for the flange nut. According to a 1980 factory repair manual, this is 123 to 151 ft. lb.
"Regurgiheads" or not, this is all useful info to me....
Personally don't see much difference between TR6 and Vixen setup, so more info welcome ! (or should I not have said that ?)
Is there proof that the original crush tubes crush further on bumps ? I can see a big impact could do that, but on the road with the rubber bushes, shocks etc, does it happen ?
Personally don't see much difference between TR6 and Vixen setup, so more info welcome ! (or should I not have said that ?)
Is there proof that the original crush tubes crush further on bumps ? I can see a big impact could do that, but on the road with the rubber bushes, shocks etc, does it happen ?
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