Vixen crush-tubes - Where to purchase
Discussion
Adrian@ said:
jpa said:
So how many known quill shaft failures (caused by the use of crush tubes) or crush tube failures have people had experience of?
Surely if it is only one it is too many...Adrian@
Monkeythree said:
Only Google has the answer.....
But unfortunately only for a Toyota differential.
Crush Sleeve or Solid Spacer?
When installing the pinion, there are two ways to set the bearing preload. One is to use a tubular crush sleeve. With this method a non-reusable crush tube is collapsed between the bearings when the assembly is tightened. The second method uses a solid cast iron spacer in place of a crush sleeve. Obviously, the solid spacer does not collapse, so shims are used with the solid spacer to accurately set the bearing preload. Shims are added and subtracted to get the proper preload. Toyota has used both methods over the years, with the solid spacers used mostly in the early years.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both methods. The solid spacer takes more effort to install, but many consider it more stout. The claim is that should the pinion flange take a very hard hit on a rock or other immovable object, it is possible that a crush sleeve could be impacted and crushed slightly more. When this happens it leaves some freeplay in the bearings, and the assembly loosens slightly.
How critical this difference is, cannot be quantified easily. Plenty of people have run crush sleeves for years with no problems, while others have reported problems with crush sleeves being damaged on the trail.
Note also that the best quality crush sleeves (~$18-20) come straight from the dealer. These are seamless ones with about 0.078" wall thickness. All aftermarket ones I have seen have been seamed tube, with some as thin as 0.055".
There are a number of misconceptions about the function and effect of the crush sleeve or spacer. Neither affects the pinion checking distance. Also, when a crush sleeve is used, the flange nut is not tightened to a specific fastener torque, rather the nut is tightened until a specific bearing preload is achieved (as measured at the pinion flange). When a solid spacer is used, there is a specified fastener torque for the flange nut. According to a 1980 factory repair manual, this is 123 to 151 ft. lb.
Good old Google. Not really comparing like with like. If something fails in a Toyota diff the car stops. If a quill shaft breaks on a TVR it doesn,t !!But unfortunately only for a Toyota differential.
Crush Sleeve or Solid Spacer?
When installing the pinion, there are two ways to set the bearing preload. One is to use a tubular crush sleeve. With this method a non-reusable crush tube is collapsed between the bearings when the assembly is tightened. The second method uses a solid cast iron spacer in place of a crush sleeve. Obviously, the solid spacer does not collapse, so shims are used with the solid spacer to accurately set the bearing preload. Shims are added and subtracted to get the proper preload. Toyota has used both methods over the years, with the solid spacers used mostly in the early years.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both methods. The solid spacer takes more effort to install, but many consider it more stout. The claim is that should the pinion flange take a very hard hit on a rock or other immovable object, it is possible that a crush sleeve could be impacted and crushed slightly more. When this happens it leaves some freeplay in the bearings, and the assembly loosens slightly.
How critical this difference is, cannot be quantified easily. Plenty of people have run crush sleeves for years with no problems, while others have reported problems with crush sleeves being damaged on the trail.
Note also that the best quality crush sleeves (~$18-20) come straight from the dealer. These are seamless ones with about 0.078" wall thickness. All aftermarket ones I have seen have been seamed tube, with some as thin as 0.055".
There are a number of misconceptions about the function and effect of the crush sleeve or spacer. Neither affects the pinion checking distance. Also, when a crush sleeve is used, the flange nut is not tightened to a specific fastener torque, rather the nut is tightened until a specific bearing preload is achieved (as measured at the pinion flange). When a solid spacer is used, there is a specified fastener torque for the flange nut. According to a 1980 factory repair manual, this is 123 to 151 ft. lb.
Adrian@ said:
I think the point is here that any crush tube available is made from seamed tube and it crushes indiscriminately, (I have stripped so few of the Vixen..maybe 30-40) but built maybe only 15-20 (because I got hype-critical on rebuilding these using the old units) and have used machined tubes each time, it is possible that a crushed version could tear at the weld and fail in use.
Adrian@
What Triumph is this used in then?
Adrian, according to my mathematics and your information there are say 20 cars fitted with "your" rear uprights etc and a similar number probably littering the streets of Coventry in a dismantled state.Adrian@
What Triumph is this used in then?
Given that Triumph rear hub assemblies are failing at an alarming rate have any of your cars had any issues. I have only ever known of 2, Trevor,s race car which stopped sudenly at Oulton many years ago and has never turned a wheel since and Neilswitch,s dad,s car which has not turned a wheel either.
Be interesting to know how they are, I see a fair few pre "M",s and have never seen one of these. Anyone on this forum got one?
They would not be so sad to frequent this forum!! but no..we have had issues with rear inner wishbone bushes, but that is different.
IMHO the TR hub issue revolves around persons without the correct tools rebuilding the units and persons without the correct tools trying adjust the bearing and looking at the large nut on the end of the flange and 'thinking' that they can adjust the bearing by doing it up to 200lbft plus THEN realising that it does not do that, (as the flange fits as a key way taper with a torque of 95lbft for one version and 120lbft for the other)...releasing it! and the wheel acting as a slide punch and hammering off the nut and washer...but heyho, I have built nearer 200 plus units (and got through the core stock of the guy I do them for, condemning assemblies that have been played with, broken one Ti Churchill press of my own and had to have a second that I had on lone rebuild!! and my current one is a copy of my original unit)
Adrian@
IMHO the TR hub issue revolves around persons without the correct tools rebuilding the units and persons without the correct tools trying adjust the bearing and looking at the large nut on the end of the flange and 'thinking' that they can adjust the bearing by doing it up to 200lbft plus THEN realising that it does not do that, (as the flange fits as a key way taper with a torque of 95lbft for one version and 120lbft for the other)...releasing it! and the wheel acting as a slide punch and hammering off the nut and washer...but heyho, I have built nearer 200 plus units (and got through the core stock of the guy I do them for, condemning assemblies that have been played with, broken one Ti Churchill press of my own and had to have a second that I had on lone rebuild!! and my current one is a copy of my original unit)
Adrian@
Adrian@ said:
They would not be so sad to frequent this forum!! but no..we have had issues with rear inner wishbone bushes, but that is different.
IMHO the TR hub issue revolves around persons without the correct tools rebuilding the units and persons without the correct tools trying adjust the bearing and looking at the large nut on the end of the flange and 'thinking' that they can adjust the bearing by doing it up to 200lbft plus THEN realising that it does not do that, (as the flange fits as a key way taper with a torque of 95lbft for one version and 120lbft for the other)...releasing it! and the wheel acting as a slide punch and hammering off the nut and washer...but heyho, I have built nearer 200 plus units (and got through the core stock of the guy I do them for, condemning assemblies that have been played with, broken one Ti Churchill press of my own and had to have a second that I had on lone rebuild!! and my current one is a copy of my original unit)
Adrian@
Not a nice thing to say about your adoring fans on PH. Bit of a Gerald Ratner moment.IMHO the TR hub issue revolves around persons without the correct tools rebuilding the units and persons without the correct tools trying adjust the bearing and looking at the large nut on the end of the flange and 'thinking' that they can adjust the bearing by doing it up to 200lbft plus THEN realising that it does not do that, (as the flange fits as a key way taper with a torque of 95lbft for one version and 120lbft for the other)...releasing it! and the wheel acting as a slide punch and hammering off the nut and washer...but heyho, I have built nearer 200 plus units (and got through the core stock of the guy I do them for, condemning assemblies that have been played with, broken one Ti Churchill press of my own and had to have a second that I had on lone rebuild!! and my current one is a copy of my original unit)
Adrian@
So there are 20 Vixen owners that you deal with than nobody else knows about and none of them frequent these forums?
I cant really understand how changing the triangle that attaches the hub to the top and bottom wishbones can affect the inner wishbone bushes!
Your honest opinion seems to be at odds to the explanation that Quaiffe gave to me.
Edited by thegamekeeper on Wednesday 21st November 15:30
It is a fact of life that not every TVR owner haunts these pages...and suppliers of very pretty replacement TR6 hubs can say what they like to make a sale (I have never read the blurb). I am only saying what I see...people get confused over how the bearing is stripped, built and rebuilt then adjusted and cannot believe the difference between the price of the bearings and the rebuilt unit cost, but righting off over 50% of the exchange unit is normal (if your not going to have someone lose a wheel).
Adrian@
Re the rear lower inboard bush..I could explain the technical terms for the bruising of the inner bush but then I would be breaking the terms my agreement with myself in getting overly serious on here. I'll leave you and Neil to do that
, and I don't feel the need to.
Adrian@
Re the rear lower inboard bush..I could explain the technical terms for the bruising of the inner bush but then I would be breaking the terms my agreement with myself in getting overly serious on here. I'll leave you and Neil to do that
, and I don't feel the need to.Edited by Adrian@ on Wednesday 21st November 16:45
Adrian@ said:
It is a fact of life that not every TVR owner haunts these pages...and suppliers of very pretty replacement TR6 hubs can say what they like to make a sale (I have never read the blurb). I am only saying what I see...people get confused over how the bearing is stripped, built and rebuilt then adjusted and cannot believe the difference between the price of the bearings and the rebuilt unit cost, but righting off over 50% of the exchange unit is normal (if your not going to have someone lose a wheel).
Adrian@
Re the rear lower inboard bush..I could explain the technical terms for the bruising of the inner bush but then I would be breaking the terms my agreement with myself in getting overly serious on here. I'll leave you and Neil to do that, and I don't feel the need to.
You are absolutely right, not every TVR owner spends time in here but its rude to insult the ones that do.Adrian@
Re the rear lower inboard bush..I could explain the technical terms for the bruising of the inner bush but then I would be breaking the terms my agreement with myself in getting overly serious on here. I'll leave you and Neil to do that
, and I don't feel the need to.Edited by Adrian@ on Wednesday 21st November 16:45
I think its fair to say Quaiffe rear hubs are slightly more than just pretty and I,m sure their target market is different to yours. I didn,t read their blurb, in fact didn,t realise they had any, I spoke to them and they explained to me why you are finding so many "reject" hubs. I,ll abide your agreement with yourself and not get too serious but it was a bit more complicated than having the ability to use Churchill tooling. No disrespect but away from these hallowed pages if you asked people who they took more notice of Quaiffe/Vessey or Adrian@ most would say Adrian who?
What they would agree on is the state of many (maybe not 50%)of the multi reconditioned units around is frightening and accounts for the number of serious rear hub failures.
Combining what they are saying and what you are saying is more frightening than I first though. Discounting TVR "M" series and the 20 Vixens fitted with these hubs, forget about all the Triumph 2000/2500,s because they dont count there are approximately 110,000 TR 4aIRS,Tr5, and TR6,s around. Knock off the 200 YOU have reconditioned and assume 50% of the rest are potentially unfit to recondition but are still fitted to cars and being driven around that means there are 54900ish potential death traps on the road.
Long live the squash tube.
Regarding the "bruising????" not much point in asking Neil, he,s only driven his car 20 feet but that will soon change now he,s got himself a fireproof babygrow and a shiny helmet. I,ll just try not to worry too much about it.
thegamekeeper said:
You are absolutely right, not every TVR owner spends time in here but its rude to insult the ones that do.
I think its fair to say Quaiffe rear hubs are slightly more than just pretty and I,m sure their target market is different to yours. I didn,t read their blurb, in fact didn,t realise they had any, I spoke to them and they explained to me why you are finding so many "reject" hubs. I,ll abide your agreement with yourself and not get too serious but it was a bit more complicated than having the ability to use Churchill tooling. No disrespect but away from these hallowed pages if you asked people who they took more notice of Quaiffe/Vessey or Adrian@ most would say Adrian who?
What they would agree on is the state of many (maybe not 50%)of the multi reconditioned units around is frightening and accounts for the number of serious rear hub failures.
Combining what they are saying and what you are saying is more frightening than I first though. Discounting TVR "M" series and the 20 Vixens fitted with these hubs, forget about all the Triumph 2000/2500,s because they dont count there are approximately 110,000 TR 4aIRS,Tr5, and TR6,s around. Knock off the 200 YOU have reconditioned and assume 50% of the rest are potentially unfit to recondition but are still fitted to cars and being driven around that means there are 54900ish potential death traps on the road.
Long live the squash tube.
Regarding the "bruising????" not much point in asking Neil, he,s only driven his car 20 feet but that will soon change now he,s got himself a fireproof babygrow and a shiny helmet. I,ll just try not to worry too much about it.
Just leave my Shiny Helmet out of this please I think its fair to say Quaiffe rear hubs are slightly more than just pretty and I,m sure their target market is different to yours. I didn,t read their blurb, in fact didn,t realise they had any, I spoke to them and they explained to me why you are finding so many "reject" hubs. I,ll abide your agreement with yourself and not get too serious but it was a bit more complicated than having the ability to use Churchill tooling. No disrespect but away from these hallowed pages if you asked people who they took more notice of Quaiffe/Vessey or Adrian@ most would say Adrian who?
What they would agree on is the state of many (maybe not 50%)of the multi reconditioned units around is frightening and accounts for the number of serious rear hub failures.
Combining what they are saying and what you are saying is more frightening than I first though. Discounting TVR "M" series and the 20 Vixens fitted with these hubs, forget about all the Triumph 2000/2500,s because they dont count there are approximately 110,000 TR 4aIRS,Tr5, and TR6,s around. Knock off the 200 YOU have reconditioned and assume 50% of the rest are potentially unfit to recondition but are still fitted to cars and being driven around that means there are 54900ish potential death traps on the road.
Long live the squash tube.
Regarding the "bruising????" not much point in asking Neil, he,s only driven his car 20 feet but that will soon change now he,s got himself a fireproof babygrow and a shiny helmet. I,ll just try not to worry too much about it.
Edited by heightswitch on Wednesday 21st November 18:41
Steve...PHEW.., I am glad I am not in the quaiffy-TR world where no one knows me, I will post on the WHYDIYGTE when I see my first pretty rear bearing, it will give me something to look forward to (as other wise I would be posting on there every day. LOL)
Keep up the good work.
Adrian@
Known failure rate in MY life time of M series bearings 1979 to now...1, Leon Hickman at he drove into the entrance to Zolder many moons ago and 2, Chrissy Totty's road car, whilst I was road testing it for her prior to servicing.
Keep up the good work.
Adrian@
Known failure rate in MY life time of M series bearings 1979 to now...1, Leon Hickman at he drove into the entrance to Zolder many moons ago and 2, Chrissy Totty's road car, whilst I was road testing it for her prior to servicing.
Edited by Adrian@ on Thursday 22 November 07:49
heightswitch said:
thegamekeeper said:
You are absolutely right, not every TVR owner spends time in here but its rude to insult the ones that do.
I think its fair to say Quaiffe rear hubs are slightly more than just pretty and I,m sure their target market is different to yours. I didn,t read their blurb, in fact didn,t realise they had any, I spoke to them and they explained to me why you are finding so many "reject" hubs. I,ll abide your agreement with yourself and not get too serious but it was a bit more complicated than having the ability to use Churchill tooling. No disrespect but away from these hallowed pages if you asked people who they took more notice of Quaiffe/Vessey or Adrian@ most would say Adrian who?
What they would agree on is the state of many (maybe not 50%)of the multi reconditioned units around is frightening and accounts for the number of serious rear hub failures.
Combining what they are saying and what you are saying is more frightening than I first though. Discounting TVR "M" series and the 20 Vixens fitted with these hubs, forget about all the Triumph 2000/2500,s because they dont count there are approximately 110,000 TR 4aIRS,Tr5, and TR6,s around. Knock off the 200 YOU have reconditioned and assume 50% of the rest are potentially unfit to recondition but are still fitted to cars and being driven around that means there are 54900ish potential death traps on the road.
Long live the squash tube.
Regarding the "bruising????" not much point in asking Neil, he,s only driven his car 20 feet but that will soon change now he,s got himself a fireproof babygrow and a shiny helmet. I,ll just try not to worry too much about it.
Just leave my Shiny Helmet out of this please I think its fair to say Quaiffe rear hubs are slightly more than just pretty and I,m sure their target market is different to yours. I didn,t read their blurb, in fact didn,t realise they had any, I spoke to them and they explained to me why you are finding so many "reject" hubs. I,ll abide your agreement with yourself and not get too serious but it was a bit more complicated than having the ability to use Churchill tooling. No disrespect but away from these hallowed pages if you asked people who they took more notice of Quaiffe/Vessey or Adrian@ most would say Adrian who?
What they would agree on is the state of many (maybe not 50%)of the multi reconditioned units around is frightening and accounts for the number of serious rear hub failures.
Combining what they are saying and what you are saying is more frightening than I first though. Discounting TVR "M" series and the 20 Vixens fitted with these hubs, forget about all the Triumph 2000/2500,s because they dont count there are approximately 110,000 TR 4aIRS,Tr5, and TR6,s around. Knock off the 200 YOU have reconditioned and assume 50% of the rest are potentially unfit to recondition but are still fitted to cars and being driven around that means there are 54900ish potential death traps on the road.
Long live the squash tube.
Regarding the "bruising????" not much point in asking Neil, he,s only driven his car 20 feet but that will soon change now he,s got himself a fireproof babygrow and a shiny helmet. I,ll just try not to worry too much about it.
Edited by heightswitch on Wednesday 21st November 18:41
Ladies and gentlemen, allow me to introduce "The Slug"
Edited by thegamekeeper on Thursday 22 November 14:54
M Series hubs and Quaife. Hub problem on race car.
Car taken to respected car restoration/race car preperation owned by very sucessfull ex-TVR racer.
New hubs ordred from Rimmers.
Phone call followed in minutes.
CB...John, your hubs arriived, they were recon units. I sent them back as I won't fit them to a race car.
Me...but I don't have an option, new ones arent available?
CB...Then best come and get your car as I won't fit the recon units to a race car.
Adrian came to the rescue with some rare unused hubs which were fitted for 6 months before fancy Quaife ones were fitted supplied by Steve R.
I have no issues with standard hubs for road use and the necessary checks in place.
Car taken to respected car restoration/race car preperation owned by very sucessfull ex-TVR racer.
New hubs ordred from Rimmers.
Phone call followed in minutes.
CB...John, your hubs arriived, they were recon units. I sent them back as I won't fit them to a race car.
Me...but I don't have an option, new ones arent available?
CB...Then best come and get your car as I won't fit the recon units to a race car.
Adrian came to the rescue with some rare unused hubs which were fitted for 6 months before fancy Quaife ones were fitted supplied by Steve R.
I have no issues with standard hubs for road use and the necessary checks in place.
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