Vixen Starting Problem

[pridaux]

Well Today in the Busted Knuckle Garage



Car on the ramps ready for gear box removal



First the exhaust out



Then hydraulic clutch line off



Then new cog ring fitted



However there where a few problems firstly we discovered that the cog ring was on the wrong way round so that is probably the reason that bit by bit it was tapping it off I suspect that this may have been done since Alan sold the car as I cant see him making that mistake

Also I was struggling to find a water leak before I fitted Evans and once we got the gear box out we realised the core plug was weeping so we had to locate one as I did not have that in the spares box

Then all back together and new starter in and all it did was turn and lock up as if the engine was solid.
however after a number of calls and double checking by lying on my back counting to make sure that it was the correct cog ring which it was.

After lots of attempts we loosened off the starter a bit and we had lift off just as battery nearly dead so ran fine however no matter what we did the starter would not work however when I rang Chausers they had sent my old one yesterday so they are having it sent back tomorrow and another new one.

I cant help wondering the mating of the 5 speed gear box to the engine is slightly out compared to the old box and having both a new starter and a new cog ring just puts everything out a bit so we will see tomorrow so still unsure what car is going to Zolder.

If anyone has any tips regards the starter and the 5 speed box it would be appreciated,

Andrew

[tunepipe911]

Andrew

we will have somethings to discuss about in the next days,
if not for the sea,I could have come over and see what is wrong?;)

[pridaux]

tunepipe911 said:

Andrew

we will have somethings to discuss about in the next days,
if not for the sea,I could have come over and see what is wrong?;)

Thanks Rudy

I know you would looking forward to catching up.
At present I don't want to play around with it until I have the original starter motor as although a bit worn was working before the cog ring dropped however before I fit it I will do the blue tack test with the starter cog back in place to see how its aligning with the cog ring and maybe it will need some shims putting in on one side to reduce the connection a little as at present it is just locking solid which makes me wonder but hey problems are there to be solved and I am sure that someone out there has experience of mating a 5 speed Ford to this engine.

Reading up on others experience some have fitted a Sierra starter and changed the cog ring to a matching cog ring and when they have done this they have needed to drill out the starter motor holes buy a couple of mm to get the correct connection and maybe this might be the answer but not until I try the original starter motor tomorrow.


Andrew

Edited by pridaux on Tuesday 21st May 18:55

[bluezeeland]

hm, no joy then, bit frustrating innit ! will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow

btw, do not stress over bringing the Vixen to Belgium, the 3000S will do nicely too !

Frank

[pridaux]

bluezeeland said:

hm, no joy then, bit frustrating innit ! will be interesting to see what happens tomorrow

btw, do not stress over bringing the Vixen to Belgium, the 3000S will do nicely too !

Frank

You may well be right doing the journey that far in a car I have only driven 20 mile in may not be sensible as Richard drove back from Bonn will see what happens tomorrow lunch time if I can sort by then I will do a good test drive get the tracking and wheels balance and see.
Spoke with Alan tonight and he never changed the cog wheel and cant remember even noticing if on correct as it was working fine when he got her.
However he agrees with my suggestions and also suggests drilling out the starter motor bolt holes a little as having both new cogs any tolerance that was there with worn gear is obviously gone with new hence why it is locking up.

Andrew

[kabaman]

I used a number of 5 speed Sierra boxes on the back of cars including Vixen, 1600m and Anglia 105E all on 1600cc xflows back in the 80s.

Casting my mind back, the M series had a cable clutch and so everything just mated. The vixen and Anglia both had hydraulic clutches, so I needed to made a slave cylinder carrier each time, which may have also opertaed in the opposite direction as hydraulic pushed and cable pulled - can't quite remember.

I needed to swap clutch plates but not covers. New rear mount, shorter prop, hole for gearstick.

I never had a problem with starter ever in any of these guises and I ran these cars at different times for tens of thousands of miles.

N

[Cerberus90]

I presume you've got the right clutch and spigot bearing for the type 9, as it's input shaft is a 1" 23 spline shaft (I think it's 1", I know it's got more splines) and the standard four speed is a smaller diameter with only 20 or 21 teeth?

Not sure if that would make it lock up, I'd imagine the box just wouldn't mate up if that was the case.

[Adrian@]

Andrew, did you look at the intermediate plate? from you first image, I did say ...it has/is been missing, eaten away,or whatever and is canting the starter over. (OK maybe).
Just trying to help BUT it needs to align correctly.
Adrian@

[pridaux]

Yes the plate is fine and the car starts fine if you loosen the bolts on the starter motor by a couple of turns however we then tried putting some penny washers in and no joy.
At that point I was tired and thought get the old motor back which worked when the ring gear was on even the wrong way round???? and get back to what worked first as Adrian has always said work backwards and put to where you started.
It may be a slight canter rather than straight out and this it would have done itself when the bolts where loosened however when washers where in that would have not been possible so it may be washer spacers on the two outer bolts and none on the inner.
However before I try anything I want to check the cog ring against the starter cog when brought back and held in place with a rubber band and some blue tack this will hopefully tell me something that may help.
I would be interested if anyone has done this using new items rather than previously used parts as the wear in used parts would give tolerances that new would not if you understand what I mean.
As most people when rebuilding don't change a ring gear unless its worn I know Allen did not nor the starter motor and I am sure lots have built with at least one of these new but has anyone done it with both new that would be interesting.
Andrew

[pridaux]

kabaman said:

I used a number of 5 speed Sierra boxes on the back of cars including Vixen, 1600m and Anglia 105E all on 1600cc xflows back in the 80s.

Casting my mind back, the M series had a cable clutch and so everything just mated. The vixen and Anglia both had hydraulic clutches, so I needed to made a slave cylinder carrier each time, which may have also opertaed in the opposite direction as hydraulic pushed and cable pulled - can't quite remember.

I needed to swap clutch plates but not covers. New rear mount, shorter prop, hole for gearstick.

I never had a problem with starter ever in any of these guises and I ran these cars at different times for tens of thousands of miles.

N

Hi Neil
As you have done this a number of times can you remember if any of those projects involved using both new starter motor and Cog ring at the same time as that would be interesting as you see from my other replies both being new may well be the reason for locking up.
Andrew
PS look forward to seeing your Griff one day soon

[kabaman]

Hi, in every case I used my original flywheel and starter. I think this may have meant using a 2 bolt starter in a three bolt belhousing on some occasions. My conclusion from doing this is that the gearbox belhousing didn't affect anything when going from 2000e (3 rail) box to sierra box. So I suspect your problem isn't related to bellhousing - it's some other mismatch.

Back to the bluetack (plasticine) idea...

The earlier post rerarding clutch and spigot are good points. I'd question everything now - you don't want to put it back and find only later that something else wasn't right.

Is it possible that the ring gear fitted isn't actually the correct ring gear? Seems unlikely but...

N

[Astacus]

How did the ring gear go on?

I haven't done one, but if I recall correctly, you have to heat up the ring gear (and cool the fly wheel?) to get them on, as they are an interference fit...

[pridaux]

Astacus said:

How did the ring gear go on?

I haven't done one, but if I recall correctly, you have to heat up the ring gear (and cool the fly wheel?) to get them on, as they are an interference fit...

The Ring gear went on with gas you need to get it tell its blue then it just drops on yes I know that some have improvised with putting the fly wheel in the freezer overnight and the ring in the oven on full not sure if it works but so I am told.
I just popped down my local Mercedes Garage where they popped it off rather sad that most of them there had no idea that was how you put one off however the workshop manager did so just enough time for a coffee and back to the garage
Andrew

[tunepipe911]

not many(household-ovens) ovens will reach high enough temperture,
freezer is not cool enough(-30 C),

[pridaux]

kabaman said:

Hi, in every case I used my original flywheel and starter. I think this may have meant using a 2 bolt starter in a three bolt belhousing on some occasions. My conclusion from doing this is that the gearbox belhousing didn't affect anything when going from 2000e (3 rail) box to sierra box. So I suspect your problem isn't related to bellhousing - it's some other mismatch.

Back to the bluetack (plasticine) idea...

The earlier post rerarding clutch and spigot are good points. I'd question everything now - you don't want to put it back and find only later that something else wasn't right.

Is it possible that the ring gear fitted isn't actually the correct ring gear? Seems unlikely but...

N

Thanks Nigel
The Problem all sorted after doing the Blue Tack test I have fitted spacers to the two outer bolts this has created a camber which is now allowing the inertia to be released properly and after a few runs I will reduce the size of the spacers nothing more than two washers on each and as the cogs settle in I will reduce to one and then eventually none so really happy starting better than ever.
Took her for a nice run and got the wheels balanced and the tracking done and she handles so much better.

All the internals where fantastic more like a hospital operating theatre and everything went back on as they came off so judging who built the car I should be the last person to alter that.

So all jobs done oil filter wheels coolant prep fluid ready for Evans when I get back.
Thanks to all who have been helping on line and on the phone.

Hope to see some of you in Zolder or Spa.

Better get the car packed as early start tomorrow.

Andrew happy

PS due to the reason it came off I did not weld it once I saw how well it had been lightened and balanced however if it happens again I will get it drilled and tapped and re balanced

Edited by pridaux on Wednesday 22 May 19:21

[pridaux]

tunepipe911 said:

not many(household-ovens) ovens will reach high enough temperture,
freezer is not cool enough(-30 C),

I can set mine to minus 30 if I want and oven to 300 degrees not sure if that would work but worth knowing thanks Rudy
Andrew