Grantura Mk3 For Sale
Discussion
I'm not sure if this one's been advertised before.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1963-TVR-Grantura-Mk3-/1...
Chris
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1963-TVR-Grantura-Mk3-/1...
Chris
looks like its still for sale or again that OP car?
anyways, came acros this one again, looks lovely but at a price...its FIA aproved or something like that, looks lovely.
http://kleinanzeigen.ebay.de/anzeigen/s-anzeige/tv...
anyways, came acros this one again, looks lovely but at a price...its FIA aproved or something like that, looks lovely.
said:
TVR Grantura MkIII 1800
FIA Rennsportfahrzeug aufgebaut nach Anhang K (Klasse GTS11); HTP-Papiere vorhanden.
Antrieb: MGB 5-fach-gelagert; 1844ccm; 155PS; Querstromkopf mit 40’er Doppel-Weber; speziell abgestimmte Abgasanlage
Getriebe: MGB 3-synchro; (optional auch Close-Ratio Ausführung -schräg- oder gradverzahnt)
Differential: original TVR Aluminiumgehäuse mit MGB-Differential (wahlweise 3,9/4,1/4,3:1) mit oder ohne Sperre (TransX oder Detroit Locker)
Fahrwerk vorne und hinten Doppelquerlenker mit einstellbaren AVO Dämpfern
Waagebalkenbremse incl. Aeroquip Schläuchen für Bremse und Kupplung
Minilite Replika-Felgen ; 6x15‘‘ mit Dunlop L sections
Fest installierte Lifeline Zero 2000 Feuerlöschanlage
Elektronischer Stromkreisunterbrecher
MST Timing Transponder
Kompletter Überrollkäfig incl. Flankenschutz und Querstrebe unter Armaturenbrett
Seiten- und Heckscheibe in Kunststoff
90 Liter Aluminium Tank schaumgefüllt (ausr. für 2 Stunden)
FIA Rennsportsitz incl. Gurte
Letzter Einsatz in Le Mans 2011
Bitte nur ernsthafte Anfragen per Telefon.
FIA Rennsportfahrzeug aufgebaut nach Anhang K (Klasse GTS11); HTP-Papiere vorhanden.
Antrieb: MGB 5-fach-gelagert; 1844ccm; 155PS; Querstromkopf mit 40’er Doppel-Weber; speziell abgestimmte Abgasanlage
Getriebe: MGB 3-synchro; (optional auch Close-Ratio Ausführung -schräg- oder gradverzahnt)
Differential: original TVR Aluminiumgehäuse mit MGB-Differential (wahlweise 3,9/4,1/4,3:1) mit oder ohne Sperre (TransX oder Detroit Locker)
Fahrwerk vorne und hinten Doppelquerlenker mit einstellbaren AVO Dämpfern
Waagebalkenbremse incl. Aeroquip Schläuchen für Bremse und Kupplung
Minilite Replika-Felgen ; 6x15‘‘ mit Dunlop L sections
Fest installierte Lifeline Zero 2000 Feuerlöschanlage
Elektronischer Stromkreisunterbrecher
MST Timing Transponder
Kompletter Überrollkäfig incl. Flankenschutz und Querstrebe unter Armaturenbrett
Seiten- und Heckscheibe in Kunststoff
90 Liter Aluminium Tank schaumgefüllt (ausr. für 2 Stunden)
FIA Rennsportsitz incl. Gurte
Letzter Einsatz in Le Mans 2011
Bitte nur ernsthafte Anfragen per Telefon.
http://kleinanzeigen.ebay.de/anzeigen/s-anzeige/tv...
GTRene said:
Looks like a very nice build. I think it may be this car, which was done in the UK in 2009/10:http://people.zeelandnet.nl/serel/9665.htm
Chassis used looks to be the later 'double kink' version introduced for the 1800S/Griffith.
Assuming it is race ready, hopefully someone will snap it up with a view to racing it in 2015. We could do with another one or two of these great race cars on our tracks.
Best wishes to all for 2015.
TF
Edited by Thurner Fan on Monday 5th January 08:41
Quite right TF
Beautifully built by Richard Perry and Gren Duffy who raced it once at Spa in the wet at the 6 Hours meeting in 2010. Beautifully built. It is blue with an orange stripe. May not be the quickest one now but it is certainly one of the nicest
R
http://people.zeelandnet.nl/serel/9665.htm
Chassis used looks to be the later 'double kink' version introduced for the 1800S/Griffith.
Assuming it is race ready, hopefully someone will snap it up with a view to racing it in 2015. We could do with another one or two of these great race cars on our tracks.
Best wishes to all for 2015.
TF
Beautifully built by Richard Perry and Gren Duffy who raced it once at Spa in the wet at the 6 Hours meeting in 2010. Beautifully built. It is blue with an orange stripe. May not be the quickest one now but it is certainly one of the nicest
R
Thurner Fan said:
GTRene said:
Looks like a very nice build. I think it may be this car, which was done in the UK in 2009/10:http://people.zeelandnet.nl/serel/9665.htm
Chassis used looks to be the later 'double kink' version introduced for the 1800S/Griffith.
Assuming it is race ready, hopefully someone will snap it up with a view to racing it in 2015. We could do with another one or two of these great race cars on our tracks.
Best wishes to all for 2015.
TF
Edited by Thurner Fan on Monday 5th January 08:41
I have decided to sell my Grantura Mk3 rolling chassis. It's an original 1800cc UK car chassis no 9/6xx
I bought it from Spadge at Cottage Classics for £15,000 in 2006 with the intention of turning it into an FIA race car. Since then I have painted it and accumulated various parts to complete it eg donor engine, brand new MSX head with manifolds, 2 x DCOEs, donor gearbox, diff carrier replaced. suspension bushes, new uprights F&R, driveshafts rebuilt, brakes, full set of new Cobra instruments wiring harness etc etc
If anyone on here is interested please PM me before it goes out to a wider audience.
I bought it from Spadge at Cottage Classics for £15,000 in 2006 with the intention of turning it into an FIA race car. Since then I have painted it and accumulated various parts to complete it eg donor engine, brand new MSX head with manifolds, 2 x DCOEs, donor gearbox, diff carrier replaced. suspension bushes, new uprights F&R, driveshafts rebuilt, brakes, full set of new Cobra instruments wiring harness etc etc
If anyone on here is interested please PM me before it goes out to a wider audience.
Mr Tiger said:
I'm not sure if this one's been advertised before.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1963-TVR-Grantura-Mk3-/1...
Chris
This car appears to be relisted again. This time the seller explains what he sees as a dilemma.http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1963-TVR-Grantura-Mk3-/1...
Chris
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1963-TVR-GRANTURA-Mk3-Di...
I suppose the question is this. If it is worth £X as a road car to an enthusiast who values originality and £Y as a finished, ready-to-race competition car to a historic racer who has had to buy it but then spend £Z to turn it into that race car, then if £32,500 is the right price why hasn't it sold?
Presumably it is because both (a) £X < £32,500 and (b) (£32,500 + £Z) > £Y
[NB : apologies, I used to teach maths!]
Y would presumably be greater if the car had period competition history, but this doesn't appear to be the case here.
And Z could undoubtedly vary enormously depending upon how much of the existing car was replaced. Any speculation as to what those figures could be?
TF
Other than money / value the real dilemma is whether it's originality should be preserved.
I guess if the conversion was sympathetic retaining as much as possible racing may actually preserve the car. However, unless it is completely stripped out / rebuilt it is unlikely to be competitive. Hence the dilemma.
Whilst I've not seen Ivan Dutton's car (raced at Goodwood) from the photos other than the FIA seat / roll cage much of the originality seems to have been preserved. This car was unrestored for 40 years so in this case it looks as though racing (and hence value) can help preserve cars.
In terms of dilemma I took a similar view on the very early MK1 for sale recently - conversion to a race car with roll cage etc would potentially lose much of the history. Hopefully it will be restored in a similar fashion to the Jomar for sale in the USA.
As discussed here before many of the competitive 'Goodwood' cars are 'specials' and may not accurately reflect racing in period. Maybe a better route for race cars should be through a HTP replica and then the original cars can be preserved.
Nice dilemma to have.
Rob
I guess if the conversion was sympathetic retaining as much as possible racing may actually preserve the car. However, unless it is completely stripped out / rebuilt it is unlikely to be competitive. Hence the dilemma.
Whilst I've not seen Ivan Dutton's car (raced at Goodwood) from the photos other than the FIA seat / roll cage much of the originality seems to have been preserved. This car was unrestored for 40 years so in this case it looks as though racing (and hence value) can help preserve cars.
In terms of dilemma I took a similar view on the very early MK1 for sale recently - conversion to a race car with roll cage etc would potentially lose much of the history. Hopefully it will be restored in a similar fashion to the Jomar for sale in the USA.
As discussed here before many of the competitive 'Goodwood' cars are 'specials' and may not accurately reflect racing in period. Maybe a better route for race cars should be through a HTP replica and then the original cars can be preserved.
Nice dilemma to have.
Rob
RobMk2a said:
As discussed here before many of the competitive 'Goodwood' cars are 'specials' and may not accurately reflect racing in period. Maybe a better route for race cars should be through a HTP replica and then the original cars can be preserved.
I know what you mean about 'Goodwood specials'. Many of the cars that regularly appear at the Revival and now the Members' Meeting are hardly ever seen anywhere else.The good news is, I think, that in common with Ivan Dutton's car, the two MkIIIs that appeared in the Les Leston Cup last week both have continuous histories. Certainly, details on each can be found on the useful online TVR Grantura Registry. See http://people.zeelandnet.nl/serel/mk3.htm
No doubt, many parts in these cars will have been replaced and, as these are active racing cars this will undoubtedly mean the original engines are long gone. But, I am assured that both cars are true to the homologated specification for the MkIII 1800 and, indeed, I was told by someone that both are currently in the process of renewing their HTP papers.
When the 'put originals in a museum and race replicas' view was first voiced by Max Mosley over 10 years ago I have to admit I didn't like it. But, I have come around to the view that it makes sense. It does, however, rely upon consistent enforcement of the rules of Appendix K and adherence to the homologated or verifiable period specification. From what I hear from racers I am not sure we are there yet.
Given the range of engine sizes and power outputs In the Les Leston Cup it wasn't really a fair fight throughout the field and I would have expected the later TVRs to easily be up the front. But it was great to see them both on the front row.
TF
Edited by Thurner Fan on Saturday 28th March 09:02
Comments below. I tried to highlight but failed
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151621599199
Thurner Fan said:
I know what you mean about 'Goodwood specials'. Many of the cars that regularly appear at the Revival and now the Members' Meeting are hardly ever seen anywhere else.
Nuts. Rod's car is the original TVR press car and competes regularly - like on this last Sunday in Equipe GTS. Will has only just finished rebuilding what was Esper's car, which prior to his ownership had done the Spa 6 Hours and loads of EU races
No doubt, many parts in these cars will have been replaced and, as these are active racing cars this will undoubtedly mean the original engines are long gone. But, I am assured that both cars are true to the homologated specification for the MkIII 1800 and, indeed, I was told by someone that both are currently in the process of renewing their HTP papers.
All papers were deemed invalid by the FIA at the end of 2014, so there is a huge backlog of applications. Both cars are fairly legal ;-) if you consider a modern US aftermarket crossflow head acceptable rather than an original HRG head running on a later 18V block
When the 'put originals in a museum and race replicas' view was first voiced by Max Mosley over 10 years ago I have to admit I didn't like it. But, I have come around to the view that it makes sense. It does, however, rely upon consistent enforcement of the rules of Appendix K and adherence to the homologated or verifiable period specification. From what I hear from racers I am not sure we are there yet.
We are miles away. There is no consistency. Lots of cars are running later parts or just getting the cars homologated and changing the spec within days. As for oversize engines......since when can a 3.8 E type outdrag a GT40? To add insult to injury things that would never get papers in the UK in a month of Sundays, get them in Europe without a problem
Given the range of engine sizes and power outputs In the Les Leston Cup it wasn't really a fair fight throughout the field and I would have expected the later TVRs to easily be up the front. But it was great to see them both on the front row.
You are telling me. I was the first all steel car home. What on earth is a S1 26R replica doing there? Frankly the two TVRs should have lapped most of the field given their 250kg weight and power advantage. Chris drove very well but Barry's MGB has both an aluminium body and a 1950 engine
TF
What's you view on this then? Looks a pretty sporty price to me for something that when restored will be crap as either a race car or road carNuts. Rod's car is the original TVR press car and competes regularly - like on this last Sunday in Equipe GTS. Will has only just finished rebuilding what was Esper's car, which prior to his ownership had done the Spa 6 Hours and loads of EU races
No doubt, many parts in these cars will have been replaced and, as these are active racing cars this will undoubtedly mean the original engines are long gone. But, I am assured that both cars are true to the homologated specification for the MkIII 1800 and, indeed, I was told by someone that both are currently in the process of renewing their HTP papers.
All papers were deemed invalid by the FIA at the end of 2014, so there is a huge backlog of applications. Both cars are fairly legal ;-) if you consider a modern US aftermarket crossflow head acceptable rather than an original HRG head running on a later 18V block
When the 'put originals in a museum and race replicas' view was first voiced by Max Mosley over 10 years ago I have to admit I didn't like it. But, I have come around to the view that it makes sense. It does, however, rely upon consistent enforcement of the rules of Appendix K and adherence to the homologated or verifiable period specification. From what I hear from racers I am not sure we are there yet.
We are miles away. There is no consistency. Lots of cars are running later parts or just getting the cars homologated and changing the spec within days. As for oversize engines......since when can a 3.8 E type outdrag a GT40? To add insult to injury things that would never get papers in the UK in a month of Sundays, get them in Europe without a problem
Given the range of engine sizes and power outputs In the Les Leston Cup it wasn't really a fair fight throughout the field and I would have expected the later TVRs to easily be up the front. But it was great to see them both on the front row.
You are telling me. I was the first all steel car home. What on earth is a S1 26R replica doing there? Frankly the two TVRs should have lapped most of the field given their 250kg weight and power advantage. Chris drove very well but Barry's MGB has both an aluminium body and a 1950 engine
TF
Edited by Thurner Fan on Saturday 28th March 09:02
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151621599199
Fiscracer said:
Both cars are fairly legal ;-) if you consider a modern US aftermarket crossflow head acceptable rather than an original HRG head running on a later 18V block.
An engine tuner friend of mine suggested that the original HRG heads can be gas flowed to achieve slightly better results than the modern US sourced replicas. He said casting quality with the latter can be something of an issue. But finding a surviving original HRG that is in good enough condition to use is very difficult and not going to get any easier, hence the common use of the modern replicas even though they may not work quite as well.I think a similar situation exists with the MGB blocks, good quality pre-66 5 main bearing examples being rather hard to find but later 18V ones still being plentiful. Is there a meaningful difference in reliability and/or performance? It was suggested to me that the main bearing caps originally used on the 18V may be marginally stronger but that as most engine builders will have used stronger aftermarket caps anyway there isn't really any relative reliability advantage over those with the rarer slightly earlier castings. But are there any other differences between vintages of 1800 block?
Fiscracer said:
You are telling me. I was the first all steel car home. ... Frankly the two TVRs should have lapped most of the field given their 250kg weight and power advantage.
I've been fairly reliably informed that these front running Granturas will probably be around 700kg (dry) assuming they are to lightweight body and chassis spec, which were both factory options in period for those that wanted a car they could race effectively. I have found it difficult to get an exact figure but my research suggests that period race cars came in at about 635-650kg, but that would have been without roll cage and modern safety equipment of course. Goodwood 1965 fastest lap times for Tommy Entwistle and John Wingfield in 1850cc Mk3s were about 1:38 (Source : Robert Barker's "A Record Of Motor Racing At Goodwood", 1999). The fastest TVR laps at 73MM were in the 1:37s but no doubt the track surface is faster these days and the rubber compound used in the replica Dunlop tyres will offer more grip. And today's drivers are occasional 'weekend warriors' rather than seasoned semi-pros with semi-factory support as Tommy E and John Wingfield were.What does a well built race MGB weigh? Alumnium bodied or otherwise. Surely not as much as 950kg, even for a steel panelled one? I thought the homologated weight was 840kg.
Fiscracer said:
Chris drove very well but Barry's MGB has both an aluminium body and a 1950 engine.
Well, he certainly seemed to find several seconds on the field on laps 5/6/7. And he caught the green TVR napping. However, I have to say that my impression from the short highlights clip on Goodwood's website was that he was overdriving a bit. I also saw a bit of ungentlemanly fist waving as he took to the grass in barging past a Turner(?) that was quite correctly sticking to its racing line. Surprised they allow a 1950 engined car in but I guess they have the luxury of running to their own rules. And it was good to see a genuinely famous period racer being used in anger.TF
Fiscracer said:
What's you view on this then? Looks a pretty sporty price to me for something that when restored will be crap as either a race car or road car
http://www.ebay.com/itm/151621599199
My only immediate observation is that it has what looks like an early Griffith bonnet.http://www.ebay.com/itm/151621599199
A nice project for someone probably?
TF
Hullygully said:
Why "crap" as a road car?
Have you ever driven one? Incredibly harsh ride. Steering with a mind of its own and wheels pointing in all sorts of directions with the torsion bar suspension. IMHOI do appreciate the CC engined ones for being old and rare but I would rather have a Mk3. Mr Thurner's chassis may not be perfect but it was a huge improvement.
Edited by Fiscracer on Wednesday 1st April 00:25
Thurner Fan said:
An engine tuner friend of mine suggested that the original HRG heads can be gas flowed to achieve slightly better results than the modern US sourced replicas. He said casting quality with the latter can be something of an issue. But finding a surviving original HRG that is in good enough condition to use is very difficult and not going to get any easier, hence the common use of the modern replicas even though they may not work quite as well.
I think a similar situation exists with the MGB blocks, good quality pre-66 5 main bearing examples being rather hard to find but later 18V ones still being plentiful. Is there a meaningful difference in reliability and/or performance? It was suggested to me that the main bearing caps originally used on the 18V may be marginally stronger but that as most engine builders will have used stronger aftermarket caps anyway there isn't really any relative reliability advantage over those with the rarer slightly earlier castings. But are there any other differences between vintages of 1800 block?
Most people run steel cranks with bespoke main caps, however the 18V block is stronger than the earlier 18GG ones. Although more power can be had from a 3 bearing engine that break cranks so most people foresake the small loss and keep their engines in one piece. I have no issue with the use of later blocks, I'm just pointing out another inconsistency. Better not talk about later 4 synchro gearboxes and use of overdrive neither of which are legal
Thurner Fan said:
I've been fairly reliably informed that these front running Granturas will probably be around 700kg (dry) assuming they are to lightweight body and chassis spec, which were both factory options in period for those that wanted a car they could race effectively. I have found it difficult to get an exact figure but my research suggests that period race cars came in at about 635-650kg, but that would have been without roll cage and modern safety equipment of course. Goodwood 1965 fastest lap times for Tommy Entwistle and John Wingfield in 1850cc Mk3s were about 1:38 (Source : Robert Barker's "A Record Of Motor Racing At Goodwood", 1999). The fastest TVR laps at 73MM were in the 1:37s but no doubt the track surface is faster these days and the rubber compound used in the replica Dunlop tyres will offer more grip. And today's drivers are occasional 'weekend warriors' rather than seasoned semi-pros with semi-factory support as Tommy E and John Wingfield were.
What does a well built race MGB weigh? Alumnium bodied or otherwise. Surely not as much as 950kg, even for a steel panelled one? I thought the homologated weight was 840kg.
Chris may be a 'weekend warrior' but he was quicker than both the pro drivers when they ran the Jaguar XKR in British GT. 2.25 around Spa ain't slow. When I raced against Tommy Entwistle in the Mongoose 30+ years ago, fast he was not.
Thurner Fan said:
Well, he certainly seemed to find several seconds on the field on laps 5/6/7. And he caught the green TVR napping. However, I have to say that my impression from the short highlights clip on Goodwood's website was that he was overdriving a bit. I also saw a bit of ungentlemanly fist waving as he took to the grass in barging past a Turner(?) that was quite correctly sticking to its racing line. Surprised they allow a 1950 engined car in but I guess they have the luxury of running to their own rules. And it was good to see a genuinely famous period racer being used in anger.
TF
For those who don't know DRX 255C is the MGB that came 2nd in class and 11th overall at Le Mans in 1965. Barry has turned down £300k for it.
Mmmm. My race was completely compromised by backmarkers, who moved onto and then off line or were oblivious to your prescence or did not expect you to carry so much speed into a corner - as happened to Chris at Woodcote
Here's the first 3 laps of the Les Leston Cup at Goodwood 73MM last weekend for those interested
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=repX7ldtOlI
Quote
"for those who don't know DRX 255C is the MGB that came 2nd in class and 11th overall at Le Mans in 1965. Barry has turned down £300k for it."
FYI - Andrew Hedges son lives in a village near me and has a 'works' replica (although built on a later shell).
I guess Barry has owned the car for a number of years and it has ' evolved' but do you think it would be nice to see it with the Le mans droop nose and 'correct' size engine.
Rob
(PS I've owned a MGB since 1989 as a more practical (if now rusty) replacement for my Grantura.
"for those who don't know DRX 255C is the MGB that came 2nd in class and 11th overall at Le Mans in 1965. Barry has turned down £300k for it."
FYI - Andrew Hedges son lives in a village near me and has a 'works' replica (although built on a later shell).
I guess Barry has owned the car for a number of years and it has ' evolved' but do you think it would be nice to see it with the Le mans droop nose and 'correct' size engine.
Rob
(PS I've owned a MGB since 1989 as a more practical (if now rusty) replacement for my Grantura.
Edited by RobMk2a on Wednesday 1st April 08:26
Edited by RobMk2a on Wednesday 1st April 09:05
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