Engine swap in 3000M

[MortenH]

Ha - Costs will add up with the V6 and it will not be easy to get i through MOT here in the car-hating Denmark...

But a quick search showed that a ST170 engine can be had for some 100 quids, so maybe this route + the NODIZ system is competitive, also from a cost-POV...!?

[madsvlund]

Main topic on the V6 is height in the engine bay. One of the danish TVR guys have a ST170 in his S type. It do have a nice and low manifold, but comming from a FWD, do it have the throttle body over the gearbox + the water pump is on top of the gearbox as well.

Morten you could allso consider a complete driveline fron a 2.0 R6 BMW, it's quite low and exhaust and intake will not be a problem.

[Moto]

Dollyman1850 said:

Are you waiting to see if I kill myself to decide??

I am thinking about something different again for car number 3.

N.

Hopefully not. Just think maybe driving a V8 Tuscan in a similar manner to the Zetec Cortina driver and it would be very easy to do so.

Car no. 3 ??? Go on share the 'thinking'.

Moto

[MortenH]

@Mads - the BMW R6 is a really nice engine, but rather heavy as far as I can remember...

Who in DK is running a ST170 in a TVR S?

[Dollyman1850]

madsvlund said:

Main topic on the V6 is height in the engine bay. One of the danish TVR guys have a ST170 in his S type. It do have a nice and low manifold, but comming from a FWD, do it have the throttle body over the gearbox + the water pump is on top of the gearbox as well.

Morten you could allso consider a complete driveline fron a 2.0 R6 BMW, it's quite low and exhaust and intake will not be a problem.

I think you have your engines / models mixed up. The early ST170 unit is basically a hotter Zetec…everything in same place..
N

[madsvlund]

the ST170 mondeo mkII was the first of the V6 Duratec models, 2.5l V6 170 hp, followed by the ST200 allso a 2,5l with better intake (195hp in first version and 200 later on). ST220 was the 3.0 liter with 226 hp.

The difference to the AJ engines in Lincoln and Jaguar is mainly the top end, raising revs at power with 20-30 hp above the ford versions.

And talking of Jaguar intake :-) the ports in the head is 30x60mm and the injection manifold is only 26x59, that will be changed. New design with 40x60mm ducati throttles and equal tapper from valve to velocity stack

[Dollyman1850]

madsvlund said:

the ST170 mondeo mkII was the first of the V6 Duratec models, 2.5l V6 170 hp, followed by the ST200 allso a 2,5l with better intake (195hp in first version and 200 later on). ST220 was the 3.0 liter with 226 hp.

The difference to the AJ engines in Lincoln and Jaguar is mainly the top end, raising revs at power with 20-30 hp above the ford versions.

And talking of Jaguar intake :-) the ports in the head is 30x60mm and the injection manifold is only 26x59, that will be changed. New design with 40x60mm ducati throttles and equal tapper from valve to velocity stack

It all seems a hell of a lot of work for relatively small power?
A nice small block on a holley with a warm cam , alloy heads and intake will net nearer 400hp…
I like the mods and the workmanship but the net gains seem to be on the low side for the complexity of work undertaken?

I am also still getting to grips with all of the electrickery gubbins on new engines…..

I see the benefit of little 4 cylinder simple swaps to keep with the ethos of the original and also the bigger V8 swaps at the other end of the scale… I struggle with the ones in the middle?? purely from a power / effort versus cost / results…

I fancy messing around with a Turbocharger in the next car..

N

[GTRene]

MortenH said:

@Mads - the BMW R6 is a really nice engine, but rather heavy as far as I can remember...

Who in DK is running a ST170 in a TVR S?

I now have the M54 engine in my new Z3 coupe 3.0 wich seems to be amazing light.

said:

BMW Z3 3.0i Z3 coupe Europa M54 = 231pk =114kg

vs example R6 from a M3/Z3M S50B30 or B32 (2 kilo difference)

said:

BMW S50B30 = 156 kg

vs S54B32

said:

BMW S54B32 = 148 kg

so it looks like that M54 is pretty light, sounds good too.

But...it goes out to be replaced for a S65B40 and some ECU finetune 460 NA hp in a few months

Edited by GTRene on Tuesday 29th September 18:41

[griff 200]

Trouble is most of the later engines are going to be impossible to run on stand alone ecu,s etc as the cam controls are just too dam hard to control so you will properly need to run with the BMW ecu and that's going to be properly impossible ? The old s50 3.2 evo m3 engine assy I'm using is fine as you can get all the BMW anti theft stuff removed easily plus a chip ungraded all for £250. This will give 340hp 8000 rpm and a 6 speed box for a bargain price. Well that's the plan .not turning the wheels yet but it makes the right noise standing still. Hopefully will move soon. Richard

[madsvlund]

For my project, is it mainly due to stupid danish rules. Only allowing +20% power increase before the car looses it's identity = loss of registration tax = 180% tax on the goverments estimated trade value of the car. So try taking my 30k£ car * 1,8 = 54.000£ tax due to a bigger engine.

So we sneak within the rules, and therefore is Morten as well as me, limited to choose from engines with 170 hp in the papers.

For the modern engines are things beeing more and more complicated. But variable cams is quite easy to control, but it's of cause up to the individual skill's

If I had a free choice.... TVR 4.2 R6 with autorotor compressor :-)

[griff 200]

Yes all is possible but getting a control for say double vanos or the like must involve a lot of time and effort on the dyno or is it really more to do with emissions than the power of the engine?? Any how all I spoke to said can't be done but may we'll not be of cause ,richard.

[griff 200]

. This vr6 was my first choice it fitted in the engine bay easy as manifolds all on one side but to run it with stand alone ecu was a step too far cost wise and only option was at the time to lock the cam timing up and as it's a road car not that ideal. But would have been a great conversion you can even turbo them if needed!! Richard

[Dollyman1850]

griff 200 said:

. This vr6 was my first choice it fitted in the engine bay easy as manifolds all on one side but to run it with stand alone ecu was a step too far cost wise and only option was at the time to lock the cam timing up and as it's a road car not that ideal. But would have been a great conversion you can even turbo them if needed!! Richard

i struggled with the 5 wires and 3 multi plugs on my Bike carbed Zetec never mind a modern engine..
It was a struggle working out the earth paths on my courtesy switches last night never mind a modern ECU Transplant..
Theres an argument these days regarding sticking with the simplicity of old….Not sure these new modern engines give us anything other than complexity for the sake of emissions and as long as we don't have to comply !!

The Alfa V6 is possibly another very good choice?

N.

[Hansoplast]

That's what I meant earlier on in this topic.
A BMW 6 cilinder with it's complete drive train.
And preferable an engine without to many computers as discussed by Dolman.

Knowing that others have been searching for it, what engine type is available with old fashion electrics or even carburators?
Been serving on internet but to much info for me.

The prices for BMW engines fits my wallet, but of course transforming it to a Vixen (2500?) will costs extra's.

Hans

[DamianS3]

I've goT the Jag v6 I mine and its a great compact engine... If doing now I would look to the 3.5 or 3.7 cyclone. Management doesn't have to be too expensive, if you drop COP And use EDIS instead (I kept COP so ended up with a MBE 9a9 on mine.

The S type gearbox is compact too but with a 1:1 5th you will need a new diff I have a 3.15 7" for but the bmw unit used by caterham comes with a whole range of ratios too.

Han I like your inlets A lot and did think speed triple TB would be cool.. I currently have the x350 manifold with 70mm jenvey but the inlet valves are not mapped so may just stick a st220 on and skip the variable inlet stuff.

The. 2.5 i4 Duratech is a really good engine however with 300bhp available from SPD.

My jag made 219bhp at the wheels so a healthy increase over the old cologne 2.9 (170 at the flywheel) for me..maybe should have gone v8 but the v6 seemed more in keeping with my s, would love a drag race with a 4.0 RV8 sometime...

Cheers

Damian S3 Duratech

Edited by DamianS3 on Wednesday 30th September 18:48

Edited by DamianS3 on Thursday 1st October 01:27

[Dollyman1850]

DamianS3 said:

I've goT the Jag v6 I mine and it appears a great compact engine... If doing now I would look to the 3.5 or 3.7 cyclone. Management doesn't have time too expensive, if you drop COP And use EDIS instead (I kept COP so ended up with a MBE 9a9 on mine. S type gearbox is compact too but with a 1:1 5th you will need a new diff I have a 3.15 7" for but the bmw unit used by caterham comes with a whole range of ratios too.

Han I like your inlets A lot and did think speed triple TB would be cool.. I currently have the x350 manifold with 70mm jenvey but the inlet valves are not mapped so may just stick a st220 on and skip the variable inlet stuff.

The. 2.5 i4 Duratech is a stinking engine however with 300bhp available from SPD.

My jag made 219bhp at the wheels so a healthy increase over the old cologne 2.9 (170 at the flywheel) for me..maybe should have gone v8 but the v6 seemed more in keeping with my s, would love a drag race with a 4.0 RV8 sometime...

Cheers

Damian S3 Duratech

Edited by DamianS3 on Wednesday 30th September 18:48

Isn't the Cyclone in RWD Production in the Big Ginetta?
N

[DamianS3]

I Believe so.. I wonder is the s type jag box would bolt to a cyclone..?

300bhp should be achievable with the 3.5..

[MortenH]

Just as mentioned by Mads above, I have to stay below 168 hp in the engines original for, as I otherwise will not be able to get it taxed and road legal here in DK.

I guess I will be going for a 2 litre Black top Zetec coupled with my type 9 gearbox... Sounds like the best plan (economically and also technically) for me!

Thanks for the input!

[DamianS3]

Hello Mads

If you read this I could be interested in your old manifolds if they are available..?

Thanks

Damian s3

[MortenH]

Might not be popular - but what about a wedge donor V8 + gearbox, manifolds etc??. Will it go straight in or were there substantial changes to the chassis - m-series to wedge?