Discussion
Hopefully as the new FIA 'compliant' car has a new chassis and body what's left of the old car is sitting in a shed?
In a similar manner a number of original style Griffith bodies have recently appeared on race cars direct. It does seem that FIA's rules are not exactly encouraging the preservation of original cars.
I suppose the HTP rule appears to allows new 'continuation' cars, under this rule do you need an original identity or could you race a completely new car.
Rob
In a similar manner a number of original style Griffith bodies have recently appeared on race cars direct. It does seem that FIA's rules are not exactly encouraging the preservation of original cars.
I suppose the HTP rule appears to allows new 'continuation' cars, under this rule do you need an original identity or could you race a completely new car.
Rob
I am not saying it is right - far fom it - but my understanding is that an HTP will be granted to any car that is judged to match the specification laid down in the relevant homologation, subject to it also meeting general modern motorsport safety criteria. So, something knocked up in a shed near Birmingham yesterday is fine as far as the FIA is concerned. Any link to an original car built in period is irrelevant for modern historic racing purposes.
The FIA did try to introduce a Heritage Certificate about 10 years ago that was designed to be a historic car's 'birth certificate', but it didn't catch on. Max Mosley stated his view at the time that all original cars should be consigned to museums and that historic race meetings should feature replicas, albeith built to exact specification. It seems that is the way things are going.
TF
The FIA did try to introduce a Heritage Certificate about 10 years ago that was designed to be a historic car's 'birth certificate', but it didn't catch on. Max Mosley stated his view at the time that all original cars should be consigned to museums and that historic race meetings should feature replicas, albeith built to exact specification. It seems that is the way things are going.
TF
Edited by Thurner Fan on Wednesday 2nd December 12:35
Is this an example of an original car being turned into a non original original but FIA legal car ? or just a coincidence.
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I never really understand the controversy that the 1800S brings on - no-one is going to win an FIA race in them and the reason I love them is their Kamm tail
The earlier Grantura just does not have the same appeal IMHO and for no particular reason here is a picture of my car with friends in slightly better weather...
Happy Christmas one and all
The earlier Grantura just does not have the same appeal IMHO and for no particular reason here is a picture of my car with friends in slightly better weather...
Happy Christmas one and all
Kickstart said:
I never really understand the controversy that the 1800S brings on - no-one is going to win an FIA race in them and the reason I love them is their Kamm tail
The earlier Grantura just does not have the same appeal IMHO and for no particular reason here is a picture of my car with friends in slightly better weather...
Happy Christmas one and all
I ave to say im with you on preferring the kamm tail, although i must ne one of the few that also prefer the later lightsThe earlier Grantura just does not have the same appeal IMHO and for no particular reason here is a picture of my car with friends in slightly better weather...
Happy Christmas one and all
Kickstart said:
I never really understand the controversy that the 1800S brings on
It is all a bit silly isn't it?I don't believe there is a Grantura racer out there who gives two hoots whether their competitor TVR has a Kamm tail or not or, indeed, whether their chassis rails have a kink or not. They might care if they thought a 1950cc engine had been dropped in or, for example, fancy, modern gas-filled suspension had been used, but the body shape and whether the original car left the factory in '65 or '66 (or even '67) are just irrelevant for competition purposes. I think they and all historic race fans can see this.
However, I suspect the controversy you identify has it roots in ... money.
Here's how I think it goes:
- there are more and more wealthy people (not necessarily petrolheads) wanting to do the glamour race events
- cars with HTPs are necessary 'entry tickets' to those glamour events and increasing demand pushes values up
- TVR Granturas are still relatively cheap amongst those entry tickets however so are increasingly popular and, if in the right class and properly driven, reasonably competitive (i.e. they can pick up the odd pot here and there; class podiums rather than out-and-out wins)
- the FIA has, historically, been rather inconsistent in its issuing of HTPs for TVR Granturas but there is evidence that they are now paying more heed to detailed adherence to the homologated specification (possibly stimulated by the hoo-ha over Griffiths a couple of years back)
- as a result, a minority of people who cared about values and comforted themselves with the belief that they owned a valuable (but possibly non-HTP) Grantura may now be concerned that they are not as valuable as once thought because they no longer own an 'entry ticket' car (loss of money)
- or, alternatively, those dedicated Grantura racers (the petrolheads) who want to keep doing the same events as they have enjoyed previously find they have to invest in what seem like irrelevant changes to their car to retain or gain an HTP (loss of money)
Loss of money = controversy.
Add to this the entirely understandable view that in historic racing 'original' should trump 'newly built' , regardless of any homologated spec, and you get the position we are now in.
TF
Edited by Thurner Fan on Wednesday 16th December 15:02
Thurner Fan said:
It is all a bit silly isn't it?
I don't believe there is a Grantura racer out there who gives two hoots whether their competitor TVR has a Kamm tail or not or, indeed, whether their chassis rails have a kink or not. They might care if they thought a 1950cc engine had been dropped in or, for example, fancy, modern gas-filled suspension had been used, but the body shape and whether the original car left the factory in '65 or '66 (or even '67) are just irrelevant for competition purposes. I think they and all historic race fans can see this.
However, I suspect the controversy you identify has it roots in ... money.
Here's how I think it goes:
- there are more and more wealthy people (not necessarily petrolheads) wanting to do the glamour race events
- cars with HTPs are necessary 'entry tickets' to those glamour events and increasing demand pushes values up
- TVR Granturas are still relatively cheap amongst those entry tickets however so are increasingly popular and, if in the right class and properly driven, reasonably competitive (i.e. they can pick up the odd pot here and there; class podiums rather than out-and-out wins)
- the FIA has, historically, been rather inconsistent in its issuing of HTPs for TVR Granturas but there is evidence that they are now paying more heed to detailed adherence to the homologated specification (possibly stimulated by the hoo-ha over Griffiths a couple of years back)
- as a result, a minority of people who cared about values and comforted themselves with the belief that they owned a valuable (but possibly non-HTP) Grantura may now be concerned that they are not as valuable as once thought because they no longer own an 'entry ticket' car (loss of money)
- or, alternatively, those dedicated Grantura racers (the petrolheads) who want to keep doing the same events as they have enjoyed previously find they have to invest in what seem like irrelevant changes to their car to retain or gain an HTP (loss of money)
Loss of money = controversy.
Add to this the entirely understandable view that in historic racing 'original' should trump 'newly built' , regardless of any homologated spec, and you get the position we are now in.
TF
I agree with a lot of what is said..If more were like me however the FIA would have to change their views…I just like to play with the old car I always wanted to build. That to me is all that is important.. Whether I am racing amongst a load of competitive guys in hot hatches in the NSSCC or amongst other Gentleman racers in swinging 60's..The fun and adrenalin rush is still the same.. I pity those that forget what the fun element is supposed to be about…There is always someone to race with and more importantly have fun with..I don't believe there is a Grantura racer out there who gives two hoots whether their competitor TVR has a Kamm tail or not or, indeed, whether their chassis rails have a kink or not. They might care if they thought a 1950cc engine had been dropped in or, for example, fancy, modern gas-filled suspension had been used, but the body shape and whether the original car left the factory in '65 or '66 (or even '67) are just irrelevant for competition purposes. I think they and all historic race fans can see this.
However, I suspect the controversy you identify has it roots in ... money.
Here's how I think it goes:
- there are more and more wealthy people (not necessarily petrolheads) wanting to do the glamour race events
- cars with HTPs are necessary 'entry tickets' to those glamour events and increasing demand pushes values up
- TVR Granturas are still relatively cheap amongst those entry tickets however so are increasingly popular and, if in the right class and properly driven, reasonably competitive (i.e. they can pick up the odd pot here and there; class podiums rather than out-and-out wins)
- the FIA has, historically, been rather inconsistent in its issuing of HTPs for TVR Granturas but there is evidence that they are now paying more heed to detailed adherence to the homologated specification (possibly stimulated by the hoo-ha over Griffiths a couple of years back)
- as a result, a minority of people who cared about values and comforted themselves with the belief that they owned a valuable (but possibly non-HTP) Grantura may now be concerned that they are not as valuable as once thought because they no longer own an 'entry ticket' car (loss of money)
- or, alternatively, those dedicated Grantura racers (the petrolheads) who want to keep doing the same events as they have enjoyed previously find they have to invest in what seem like irrelevant changes to their car to retain or gain an HTP (loss of money)
Loss of money = controversy.
Add to this the entirely understandable view that in historic racing 'original' should trump 'newly built' , regardless of any homologated spec, and you get the position we are now in.
TF
Edited by Thurner Fan on Wednesday 16th December 15:02
I just like the little old car I built..What its worth really is of no concern to me…I suppose that is probably true of the very wealthy racer too….The events as you say are probably that little bit more exclusive…
Perhaps Lord March should consider an event for the scruffy oiks who have built their own cars and maybe must pass an eligibility test
There has to be something wrong with the rules when an old car still on a Brazed original chassis, correct spec engine on a 30thou crank, quill shafts TR6 brakes and trunnions cannot race uncompetitively at a Historic race against something brand new with Mig welded CDS chassis, ultra lightweight body and flared arches…..
This is not the racing preparation fraternities fault…It is the FIA's…who of course tend to make rather a lot of money from everything they implement..whether it is safety equipment life-ing and standards or the need to HTP cars!!!!! Maybe thats why they have less time for the hard up cap wearing oiks…no money in it for them.!!
Come to think of it..maybe thats why they don't want to relax the rules…Maybe if the rules were more relaxed then a 2 tier all inclusive system would develop…Winners with lots of money at the podium but poor impoverished petrol heads having fun further down the field…At least then everyone would be racing……Again though the ruling bodies wouldn't be making loads of money perhaps??
Its very telling that the most popular historic racing club with full grids has the most relaxed rules??
Unfortunately there will always be 2 types of racer…The owner / builder and enthusiast…..Then the Pot Hunter!!
Anyhow….This thread is actually very good when considering race histories and the fiddles enjoyed in the past to get non registered cars across into foreign countries..and does show how myths can come about….
As per Kickstart I love Kamn tails very much too…
N.
Edited by Dollyman1850 on Wednesday 16th December 20:20
Dollyman - great photos...
On the subject of blue ribbon historic races, IMHO I tend to think that there are already three tiers if not more. There is Goodwood & Le Mans classic in the first tier, Silverstone classic & Spa 6 hours - second tier and all the other FIA races tier 3. An 1800s is never going to get into tier 1 and again tier 2 (depending upon entries and connexions) is difficult, but the tier 3 races (which I tend to prefer) such as the Old Timer GP, Gold Cup, Eifelrennen etc have been struggling for full grids for some years. I think it would be such a shame if the Kamm tailed cars were unable to take part in these races. When we race the TVR especially in Europe, we get so many people coming to talk to us about it, far more than with our other cars.
I suspect if the TVR could not get new papers with its Kamm Tail I doubt I would re-body it as I just don't like the shape of the pre Kamm tail cars. It would just get rolled to the back of the garage and if I was to continue FIA racing then I would look to get an Elan. Aside from the financial aspect of this, I really don't think yet another Lotus Elan adds to the spectacle. I suspect its more likely that I would just call it a day on FIA racing.
Again for no obvious reason here is the car at the Ring about to be overtaken by a mustang (?) - not too good with the Johnny Foreigner cars...
On the subject of blue ribbon historic races, IMHO I tend to think that there are already three tiers if not more. There is Goodwood & Le Mans classic in the first tier, Silverstone classic & Spa 6 hours - second tier and all the other FIA races tier 3. An 1800s is never going to get into tier 1 and again tier 2 (depending upon entries and connexions) is difficult, but the tier 3 races (which I tend to prefer) such as the Old Timer GP, Gold Cup, Eifelrennen etc have been struggling for full grids for some years. I think it would be such a shame if the Kamm tailed cars were unable to take part in these races. When we race the TVR especially in Europe, we get so many people coming to talk to us about it, far more than with our other cars.
I suspect if the TVR could not get new papers with its Kamm Tail I doubt I would re-body it as I just don't like the shape of the pre Kamm tail cars. It would just get rolled to the back of the garage and if I was to continue FIA racing then I would look to get an Elan. Aside from the financial aspect of this, I really don't think yet another Lotus Elan adds to the spectacle. I suspect its more likely that I would just call it a day on FIA racing.
Again for no obvious reason here is the car at the Ring about to be overtaken by a mustang (?) - not too good with the Johnny Foreigner cars...
Kickstart said:
Dollyman - great photos...
On the subject of blue ribbon historic races, IMHO I tend to think that there are already three tiers if not more. There is Goodwood & Le Mans classic in the first tier, Silverstone classic & Spa 6 hours - second tier and all the other FIA races tier 3. An 1800s is never going to get into tier 1 and again tier 2 (depending upon entries and connexions) is difficult, but the tier 3 races (which I tend to prefer) such as the Old Timer GP, Gold Cup, Eifelrennen etc have been struggling for full grids for some years. I think it would be such a shame if the Kamm tailed cars were unable to take part in these races. When we race the TVR especially in Europe, we get so many people coming to talk to us about it, far more than with our other cars.
I suspect if the TVR could not get new papers with its Kamm Tail I doubt I would re-body it as I just don't like the shape of the pre Kamm tail cars. It would just get rolled to the back of the garage and if I was to continue FIA racing then I would look to get an Elan. Aside from the financial aspect of this, I really don't think yet another Lotus Elan adds to the spectacle. I suspect its more likely that I would just call it a day on FIA racing.
Again for no obvious reason here is the car at the Ring about to be overtaken by a mustang (?) - not too good with the Johnny Foreigner cars...
Nice pic..On the subject of blue ribbon historic races, IMHO I tend to think that there are already three tiers if not more. There is Goodwood & Le Mans classic in the first tier, Silverstone classic & Spa 6 hours - second tier and all the other FIA races tier 3. An 1800s is never going to get into tier 1 and again tier 2 (depending upon entries and connexions) is difficult, but the tier 3 races (which I tend to prefer) such as the Old Timer GP, Gold Cup, Eifelrennen etc have been struggling for full grids for some years. I think it would be such a shame if the Kamm tailed cars were unable to take part in these races. When we race the TVR especially in Europe, we get so many people coming to talk to us about it, far more than with our other cars.
I suspect if the TVR could not get new papers with its Kamm Tail I doubt I would re-body it as I just don't like the shape of the pre Kamm tail cars. It would just get rolled to the back of the garage and if I was to continue FIA racing then I would look to get an Elan. Aside from the financial aspect of this, I really don't think yet another Lotus Elan adds to the spectacle. I suspect its more likely that I would just call it a day on FIA racing.
Again for no obvious reason here is the car at the Ring about to be overtaken by a mustang (?) - not too good with the Johnny Foreigner cars...
N
Dollyman1850 said:
Thurner Fan said:
N.
Edited by Dollyman1850 on Wednesday 16th December 20:20
Oliver.
oliverb205 said:
Dollyman1850 said:
Thurner Fan said:
N.
Edited by Dollyman1850 on Wednesday 16th December 20:20
Oliver.
Regards my old fellas car..he had the choice and wanted them ban the bomb style..
N.
GAjon said:
Dollyman1850 said:
Regards my old fellas car..he had the choice and wanted them ban the bomb style..
N.
To be even more pedantic, niether of them represent 'Ban the bomb' which is a representation of the semiphore symbols of both N & D (Nuclear disarmement) combined. N.
N.
GAjon said:
Dollyman1850 said:
Don't tell me..you once had hair and used to be a hippie
N.
Like yeah man! N.
I even had hair when I bought my TVR!
Cheshire sports cars have some seriously expensive stock.
Are you up for the Birkett next year?
N
GAjon said:
Dollyman1850 said:
He obviously got wise after you stole the last one
Are you up for the Birkett next year?
N
I'd love to be able to say a definate yes but don't know if I will be in a position, but I won't say no either.Are you up for the Birkett next year?
N
I didn't steal it, they left the door open!
N.
Neil and I have decided that we will be selling APH soon. We will be getting it 100% before bringing it to market with a whole host of spares including a spare engine and gearbox . I thought I would mention it here first if there is any enthusiast interest although I possible risk being barred.
Whoops.
Whoops.
GAjon said:
Dollyman1850 said:
Regards my old fellas car..he had the choice and wanted them ban the bomb style..
N.
To be even more pedantic, niether of them represent 'Ban the bomb' which is a representation of the semiphore symbols of both N & D (Nuclear disarmement) combined. N.
Er, apparently not. ". . . eventually the arms of the cross were allowed to drop, forming the composite basic semaphore signal for the letters N and D, and at the same time a gesture of human despair against the background of a round globe."
Best regards,
Bernard.
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