5 Speed Transmission Conversions
Discussion
I've been researching 5 speed conversions for a while for my 73 2500M. In the US they are based around Toyota gearboxes but the ratios don't really match the rearend or your hunting for a very hard to find gearbox. Stumbled across Hi Gear Engineering in the UK who supply Moss Europe but they don't sell in the US. Anyone have any experience with them or their kit? Would be great if they'd sell the TR6 kit piecemeal as some part I won't use (drive shaft for one) to help on cost. Anyone have an email contact for them? Any other good options for 5 or 6 speed conversions?
Neil
Neil
I used some parts of a complete Hi Gear Engineering kit when I built a MGB with Ford Zetec engine. I bought the kit from MGOC Spares.
However I do believe the Type9 will be marginal behind a Triumph 2500? I used a Borg Warner T5 WC gearbox in my Daimler V8 Vixen
Does this help - http://www.canleyclassics.com/gearbox-and-clutch/f... -they might know what fits?
However I do believe the Type9 will be marginal behind a Triumph 2500? I used a Borg Warner T5 WC gearbox in my Daimler V8 Vixen
Does this help - http://www.canleyclassics.com/gearbox-and-clutch/f... -they might know what fits?
A Ford Type 9 should be fine behind a 2500, after all its power and torque are both lower than a 2.8i engine....
If you go T9, get a later 2.8 box with the upgraded layshaft bearings, as they are better, but any V6 'box should be strong enough.
It's all down to what bellhousings you can find, and finding a clutch plate.
T5 will also work, if you can find a bellhousing. T5 box is quite big though compared to original and type 9.
Why not just go for an original overdrive box ? They are pretty reliable IMHO. (or have you had issues with it ?)
If you go T9, get a later 2.8 box with the upgraded layshaft bearings, as they are better, but any V6 'box should be strong enough.
It's all down to what bellhousings you can find, and finding a clutch plate.
T5 will also work, if you can find a bellhousing. T5 box is quite big though compared to original and type 9.
Why not just go for an original overdrive box ? They are pretty reliable IMHO. (or have you had issues with it ?)
Yes, that's a gotcha. T9 (and most T5) use cable clutches, which can be a PITA.
Later 'S' series cars have a bracket as an adapter which clips into the square 'hole' of the type 9, and then pushes the release arm forwards. That does work, but is still a bit of a bodge...
Ford engined Vixens and M have an adapter setup at the pedal end, which is fairly neat and seems to work well.
(My Vixen S3 is cable clutch with a 5 speeder)
So if it was me, I would look at going that way for a 2500 with a T9, by using, say, a 1600M pedal box and pedals.
Later 'S' series cars have a bracket as an adapter which clips into the square 'hole' of the type 9, and then pushes the release arm forwards. That does work, but is still a bit of a bodge...
Ford engined Vixens and M have an adapter setup at the pedal end, which is fairly neat and seems to work well.
(My Vixen S3 is cable clutch with a 5 speeder)
So if it was me, I would look at going that way for a 2500 with a T9, by using, say, a 1600M pedal box and pedals.
RCK974X said:
Yes, that's a gotcha. T9 (and most T5) use cable clutches, which can be a PITA.
Later 'S' series cars have a bracket as an adapter which clips into the square 'hole' of the type 9, and then pushes the release arm forwards. That does work, but is still a bit of a bodge...
Ford engined Vixens and M have an adapter setup at the pedal end, which is fairly neat and seems to work well.
(My Vixen S3 is cable clutch with a 5 speeder)
So if it was me, I would look at going that way for a 2500 with a T9, by using, say, a 1600M pedal box and pedals.
Yes, keep it cable. I haven't but it's a lot easier! Still propshaft, mount and gearstick position games, and you'll be lucky if the manifold clears the side bulge so reckon on a new one.....Later 'S' series cars have a bracket as an adapter which clips into the square 'hole' of the type 9, and then pushes the release arm forwards. That does work, but is still a bit of a bodge...
Ford engined Vixens and M have an adapter setup at the pedal end, which is fairly neat and seems to work well.
(My Vixen S3 is cable clutch with a 5 speeder)
So if it was me, I would look at going that way for a 2500 with a T9, by using, say, a 1600M pedal box and pedals.
I think you may have answered you own question. There are no clutch arms available (or pivot) or mount point. Yes it can be engineered but it just adds another layer of work. The central internal slave is really the only practical option IMHO and that is likely to need a master change to .625 to get the travel right - so might as well go cable anyway.
RCK974X said:
Yes, that's a gotcha. T9 (and most T5) use cable clutches, which can be a PITA.
Later 'S' series cars have a bracket as an adapter which clips into the square 'hole' of the type 9, and then pushes the release arm forwards. That does work, but is still a bit of a bodge...
Ford engined Vixens and M have an adapter setup at the pedal end, which is fairly neat and seems to work well.
(My Vixen S3 is cable clutch with a 5 speeder)
So if it was me, I would look at going that way for a 2500 with a T9, by using, say, a 1600M pedal box and pedals.
My T9, My Old T5 and My even Older ST10 all use Hydraulic release bearings!! ALL Have performed faultlessly in service!Later 'S' series cars have a bracket as an adapter which clips into the square 'hole' of the type 9, and then pushes the release arm forwards. That does work, but is still a bit of a bodge...
Ford engined Vixens and M have an adapter setup at the pedal end, which is fairly neat and seems to work well.
(My Vixen S3 is cable clutch with a 5 speeder)
So if it was me, I would look at going that way for a 2500 with a T9, by using, say, a 1600M pedal box and pedals.
Don't know what people find hard about fitting a hydraulic clutch release bearing
I found it easy!
N.
Edited by Dollyman1850 on Saturday 27th August 23:49
Edited by Dollyman1850 on Saturday 27th August 23:51
Fair enough... I reckon cable setups tend to be less hassle to adapt, but didn't say one was better than the other !
I thought that all type 9 'boxes were cable originally - Your annular hydraulic cyl photo is beautiful, but it's not Ford or TVR OE.
(It's as used by racers I think ? or have I got that wrong ?)
Yes, didn't think - T5 has been around a while on many engines, so hydraulic bellhousings must be around.
I know that the 'S' guys have complained that the bracket adapter setup tends to slowly eat through the release arm... but it can be welded up to fix it. But it seems like a workable solution, if you can find the bracket.
If you're someone who's less into engineering your own, the cable clutch and 1600M pedal box gives a 'standard bolt in' solution, so that's why I suggested it. (but 'standard' has to be stretched a bit for TVRs anyway)
I've had failed clutch hydraulics, broken release fork on Triumph boxes (2500), but also snapped clutch cables, so I don't really see much difference, just whatever is easier to do...
I have adapted kit cars to cable to fit a Ford V6 a couple of times too - I reckon it's typically easier to mod the pedal box at low cost, but your cyl solution is very, very neat.
So LSRbbs, it's probably down to what bits you can find, what you want to spend, or what you prefer, but I hope this info helps with the decision, either way.
I thought that all type 9 'boxes were cable originally - Your annular hydraulic cyl photo is beautiful, but it's not Ford or TVR OE.
(It's as used by racers I think ? or have I got that wrong ?)
Yes, didn't think - T5 has been around a while on many engines, so hydraulic bellhousings must be around.
I know that the 'S' guys have complained that the bracket adapter setup tends to slowly eat through the release arm... but it can be welded up to fix it. But it seems like a workable solution, if you can find the bracket.
If you're someone who's less into engineering your own, the cable clutch and 1600M pedal box gives a 'standard bolt in' solution, so that's why I suggested it. (but 'standard' has to be stretched a bit for TVRs anyway)
I've had failed clutch hydraulics, broken release fork on Triumph boxes (2500), but also snapped clutch cables, so I don't really see much difference, just whatever is easier to do...
I have adapted kit cars to cable to fit a Ford V6 a couple of times too - I reckon it's typically easier to mod the pedal box at low cost, but your cyl solution is very, very neat.
So LSRbbs, it's probably down to what bits you can find, what you want to spend, or what you prefer, but I hope this info helps with the decision, either way.
Edited by RCK974X on Sunday 28th August 01:49
My advice would be go with cable in preference if you can change the pedal box as its fit and forget. It's all easily adjusted externally, no faffing with spacers for the clearance, it won't ever leak, you can use a flat face bearing if you have curly fingers, and it eradicates the knock-on of probably changing the master. So it's a standard setup with only the re engineering of the pedal box end. Many have used the internal slave, including me, but I would say if you're a Saturday morning 'let's just whip the gearbox out to cure the leak etc' sort of bloke it's for you, if not then cable would be the way forward.
Most hydraulic clutches in production cars today have internal slaves? You don't see people on the drives at weekends curing leaks!
The T9 conversion is based around a production slave from a volvo I believe!
Again..technology moves on.
The race car hasn't been to bits for the best part of 2 years.
A T5 in a cobra replica I built was run for 5 years no issues
If you have a car with an existing TR6 pedal box then save yourself all the aggro!
You'll be retro fitting cable operated brakes next!!
N.
The T9 conversion is based around a production slave from a volvo I believe!
Again..technology moves on.
The race car hasn't been to bits for the best part of 2 years.
A T5 in a cobra replica I built was run for 5 years no issues
If you have a car with an existing TR6 pedal box then save yourself all the aggro!
You'll be retro fitting cable operated brakes next!!
N.
Dollyman1850 said:
Most hydraulic clutches in production cars today have internal slaves? You don't see people on the drives at weekends curing leaks!
The T9 conversion is based around a production slave from a volvo I believe!
Again..technology moves on.
The race car hasn't been to bits for the best part of 2 years.
A T5 in a cobra replica I built was run for 5 years no issues
If you have a car with an existing TR6 pedal box then save yourself all the aggro!
You'll be retro fitting cable operated brakes next!!
N.
You're right there Neil, but you're into continual work on the cars and others may not be, my point was that given the two alternatives (and with hindsight!) on balance a cable arrangement would have been easier with less bear traps than hydraulic. Yes the principle is Saab etc but the parts for the T9 conversion are probably Taiwanese!The T9 conversion is based around a production slave from a volvo I believe!
Again..technology moves on.
The race car hasn't been to bits for the best part of 2 years.
A T5 in a cobra replica I built was run for 5 years no issues
If you have a car with an existing TR6 pedal box then save yourself all the aggro!
You'll be retro fitting cable operated brakes next!!
N.
Cable brakes - good idea combined with 16" drums all round
imho a cable clutch is easier if you have a problem. You can change it without bleeding or taking the Engine out to change the Slave. You can also adjust free play without making up spacers too at master cylinders because the piston in the master cannot return fully because a piston rod is the wrong length (lotus elan).
You can keep an eye on the cable to see if it's fraying but to see if hydraulic seals are about to give way is difficult.
Alan
You can keep an eye on the cable to see if it's fraying but to see if hydraulic seals are about to give way is difficult.
Alan
plasticpig72 said:
... You can keep an eye on the cable to see if it's fraying ...
To be totally fair...Not Always !!The (horrid) setup in the Wedge V6 means the cable can fray in the pedal box where it can't be seen....and was bad design (cost me 2 cables before I modded it) I don't understand why TVR changed from the much neater Vixen/M modification....
The original Ford setup also wasn't obvious if cable frayed close to pedal - had that happen once too !
So hydraulics wear and seals can fail, but cables tend to flex and fray where there is movement (inevitably at each end).
I still think cables are easier to mod and adapt if OE has them, but mainly because the brackets are simpler to make up !
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