2.9l 24V Cosworth in an M-chassis?
Discussion
There's not only one M-type TVR in Germany which is converted to cosworth turbo engine. And there is at least one 3000M with the 2.9 24V engine fitted. Think you can contact him by posting on the german TVR Car Club Forum: www.tvrcarclub.de
Please use the link to "Forum".
Axel
Please use the link to "Forum".
Axel
Hiya Pelson,
I looked into doing a 24v conversion into my 3000M a couple of years ago. I wouldn't say it was impossible but from what I found out, the modification needed to the chassis just to get the engine to sit in was way beyond my capabilities. You also have to think of the one off parts that would be needed. Exhaust manifolds, Engine mounts (very different to an M's) Propshaft, Chassis strengthening and I don't even want to think about the electircs that would be involved.
I scrapped the idea long before I made the mistake of sheeling out for a (usually very high mileage) scrapped 24v engine and opted to do the Rover 3.9 V8 conversion instead.
This is actually a hell of a lot easier and the engine sits staight in without any need to modify the chassis. A pair of off the shelf Stainless steel MGV8 manifolds and a pair of modified Range rover P38 engine mounts and the engine is in.
I have seen a 24v in a S and it does look like a very neat conversion, but you have to remember that the S uses the later 2.8/9 engine which is the same block as the 24v (to my knowledge) so the swap is that much easier from day one.
I'd recommend going for the V8 option every time and keep that TVR + V8 combination.
Good Luck with your project.
Andy Clayton
I looked into doing a 24v conversion into my 3000M a couple of years ago. I wouldn't say it was impossible but from what I found out, the modification needed to the chassis just to get the engine to sit in was way beyond my capabilities. You also have to think of the one off parts that would be needed. Exhaust manifolds, Engine mounts (very different to an M's) Propshaft, Chassis strengthening and I don't even want to think about the electircs that would be involved.
I scrapped the idea long before I made the mistake of sheeling out for a (usually very high mileage) scrapped 24v engine and opted to do the Rover 3.9 V8 conversion instead.
This is actually a hell of a lot easier and the engine sits staight in without any need to modify the chassis. A pair of off the shelf Stainless steel MGV8 manifolds and a pair of modified Range rover P38 engine mounts and the engine is in.
I have seen a 24v in a S and it does look like a very neat conversion, but you have to remember that the S uses the later 2.8/9 engine which is the same block as the 24v (to my knowledge) so the swap is that much easier from day one.
I'd recommend going for the V8 option every time and keep that TVR + V8 combination.
Good Luck with your project.
Andy Clayton
Thanks for replies
I am aware of the modifications needed for the engine mounts. I can weld new brackets to the chassis or make new mounts so it fits to the existing brackets where the Essex sits.
The alternator has to be relocated, as this fouls the chassis.
A bellhousing from a 2.8 fits on the existing gearbox, and the 24V fits on the 2.8 bellhousing.
The plan was to by a running donor car and use as much as possible, including the electrics.
But if the engine is too wide for the engine bay, I will drop the project.
The 24V fits in S and Wedge chassis, are the engine bay in these cars wider than the M?
I am aware of the modifications needed for the engine mounts. I can weld new brackets to the chassis or make new mounts so it fits to the existing brackets where the Essex sits.
The alternator has to be relocated, as this fouls the chassis.
A bellhousing from a 2.8 fits on the existing gearbox, and the 24V fits on the 2.8 bellhousing.
The plan was to by a running donor car and use as much as possible, including the electrics.
But if the engine is too wide for the engine bay, I will drop the project.
The 24V fits in S and Wedge chassis, are the engine bay in these cars wider than the M?
I met a guy a little while ago who'd had the 24v engine fitted into his Scimitar. Work was done by Queensberry Road Garage who would not, by all accounts, welcome the chance to do another.
The difficulty is that the 24v's ECU is designed to run both the engine and its Granada auto gearbox together - it won't run the engine on its own, so unless you are planning to use the autobox you will require new engine management.
The difficulty is that the 24v's ECU is designed to run both the engine and its Granada auto gearbox together - it won't run the engine on its own, so unless you are planning to use the autobox you will require new engine management.
Nick_F said:
I met a guy a little while ago who'd had the 24v engine fitted into his Scimitar. Work was done by Queensberry Road Garage who would not, by all accounts, welcome the chance to do another.
The difficulty is that the 24v's ECU is designed to run both the engine and its Granada auto gearbox together - it won't run the engine on its own, so unless you are planning to use the autobox you will require new engine management.
The difficulty is that the 24v's ECU is designed to run both the engine and its Granada auto gearbox together - it won't run the engine on its own, so unless you are planning to use the autobox you will require new engine management.
Not so, it will run the engine with a manual box if you cut out some of the loom wires. Lot's of people do transplants with a T5.
Boosted.
My wedge is one the few with a 24v conversion. It did seem a fairly straightforward swap in theory as the new block is similar to the old 2.8 capri block. Engine bolted straight in, connected to the existing clutch and sierra gearbox and the bonnet closed ok. But the manifolds cost a fair bit to get made up and the wiring loom...........well I paid a reputable specialist to do the work and the total bill tells the story! Getting hold of a cosworth engine is the easy bit (you even get a free granada with it) but the effort that went into the whole job would put a lot of people off.
And that's in a wedge, in an M I think you're better off with a V8, which would better suit the nature of the car anyway.
And that's in a wedge, in an M I think you're better off with a V8, which would better suit the nature of the car anyway.
My tuppence worth here is that the 24v cossy engine is nice in std form but expensive and difficult to tune. it is also a heavy old beast. Being 24v I also suspect it is very wide at the top end. your problem therefore wont be fitting the block in the chassis, but actually routing the exhaust manifolds around the steering into a narrow space between chassis rails and block.
being an essentially warmed over 2.8 / 2.9 block with different cylinder heads, mounts will not prove difficult. The 2.8 bellhousing will fit but I am not sure about the flywheel?? I once put a 2.9 box on a 2.8 engine and found that the flywheel on the 2.8 was to thin and didn't give enough throw on the clutch. Thus I would assume 2.8 flywheel for 2.8 type 9 box or stick with 2.9 flywheel for 2.9 MT75 box.
I can understand doing this conversion if you have found a cheap engine and don't plan to do anything with it, but by the time you have sorted steering and manifolds and messed around with the wiring to get it all to work you could have tuned an old essex engine to give 200hp? Or you could have put a rover in it and got the same result with a lighter front end??
A 2.0 turbo zetec installation would also be nice and light and drop straight in.
I think the weight in the case of this swap will work against the extra power and poorer handling??
Neil.
being an essentially warmed over 2.8 / 2.9 block with different cylinder heads, mounts will not prove difficult. The 2.8 bellhousing will fit but I am not sure about the flywheel?? I once put a 2.9 box on a 2.8 engine and found that the flywheel on the 2.8 was to thin and didn't give enough throw on the clutch. Thus I would assume 2.8 flywheel for 2.8 type 9 box or stick with 2.9 flywheel for 2.9 MT75 box.
I can understand doing this conversion if you have found a cheap engine and don't plan to do anything with it, but by the time you have sorted steering and manifolds and messed around with the wiring to get it all to work you could have tuned an old essex engine to give 200hp? Or you could have put a rover in it and got the same result with a lighter front end??
A 2.0 turbo zetec installation would also be nice and light and drop straight in.
I think the weight in the case of this swap will work against the extra power and poorer handling??
Neil.
Heightswitch said:
I can understand doing this conversion if you have found a cheap engine and don't plan to do anything with it, but by the time you have sorted steering and manifolds and messed around with the wiring to get it all to work you could have tuned an old essex engine to give 200hp? Or you could have put a rover in it and got the same result with a lighter front end??
A 2.0 turbo zetec installation would also be nice and light and drop straight in.
I think the weight in the case of this swap will work against the extra power and poorer handling??
Neil.
I think this is the most valid point to be raised so far. the essex engine has very similar characteristics to the Rv8 i.e alot more torque than bhp whereas the 24v Cologne engine has roughly the same amount of torque to bhp. This results in a completely different driving style, with the essex/rv8 you have power throughout the rev range, the 24v has its power above 3.5k revs.
I know the 24v engine is cheap to get hold of and may sound tempting (I bought a 24v Granada, t&t and in good condition for £500) but what are you hoping for as an end result?
for £1000 you could have the essex breathed on by JW developments as I have had done on my scimitar which now sees 163 bhp and 192lb/ft torque whilst retaining every day driveability. a carbed Rv8 is pushing out 150 bhp and c200 lb/ft of torque.
I can assure you that the difference is vast on the road.
anyway just my 2p, the key is what do you want to achieve??
I prefer the rv8 to the cosworth engine but just as a point of interest I think the 24v pushes out appx 210 hp which is a fair bit more then the ford push rod engine. The cossie is expensive to tune n/a but so is a rover. That said a rover can be sourced with increased capacity whereas a cossie would have to be force fed to make similar power. Keeping things simple has it's merits.
Boosted.
Boosted.
FHCNICK said:
for £1000 you could have the essex breathed on by JW developments as I have had done on my scimitar which now sees 163 bhp and 192lb/ft torque whilst retaining every day driveability. a carbed Rv8 is pushing out 150 bhp and c200 lb/ft of torque.
I can assure you that the difference is vast on the road.
Nick, for next time I have a discretionary £1K, roughly speaking what work did they do for that ?
Boosted LS1 said:
I prefer the rv8 to the cosworth engine but just as a point of interest I think the 24v pushes out appx 210 hp which is a fair bit more then the ford push rod engine. The cossie is expensive to tune n/a but so is a rover. That said a rover can be sourced with increased capacity whereas a cossie would have to be force fed to make similar power. Keeping things simple has it's merits.
Boosted.
Boosted.
I take your point (not for the first time by the way
) but what i'm trying to say is that the rv8 and essex engines share similar characteristics that make the driving experience similar. the multivalve cossie is a different beast altogether and as such would change the driving style of the vehicle if that makes sense to anyone 
It seems that keeping the Essex may be the best solution. This engine is tuned to 200+hp, not very driveable on the road.
A stock 24V engine produce the same power, but have also low end torque, something my Essex currently is missing.
I have to do some modifications to get the car suitable for normal road use.
To swap the supersports cam with a fast road cam may be the right thing to do. I think this will restore the good low end torque.
I'm just looking for other options before spending money on the Essex, but installing a 24V seems to be to much work.
A stock 24V engine produce the same power, but have also low end torque, something my Essex currently is missing.
I have to do some modifications to get the car suitable for normal road use.
To swap the supersports cam with a fast road cam may be the right thing to do. I think this will restore the good low end torque.
I'm just looking for other options before spending money on the Essex, but installing a 24V seems to be to much work.
FHCNICK said:
Boosted LS1 said:
I prefer the rv8 to the cosworth engine but just as a point of interest I think the 24v pushes out appx 210 hp which is a fair bit more then the ford push rod engine. The cossie is expensive to tune n/a but so is a rover. That said a rover can be sourced with increased capacity whereas a cossie would have to be force fed to make similar power. Keeping things simple has it's merits.
Boosted.
Boosted.
I take your point (not for the first time by the way
) but what i'm trying to say is that the rv8 and essex engines share similar characteristics that make the driving experience similar. the multivalve cossie is a different beast altogether and as such would change the driving style of the vehicle if that makes sense to anyone I take your point
and understand what you mean. I fitted a 24v to an S2 and everything started to happen higher up the power band where it really came alive. There didn't seem like a lot low down but never having had a 12v I can't make a comparison between the two engines. I do prefer the rover to the 24v though as it has more ultimate potential imo. Boosted
Pelsen
What GAjon says is right, he has a specialised exhaust system made by Tony Law through Ric Wood, I had a copy made (also by Tony Law) and the difference in low end power was amazing, made some good noises too! The Tony Law exhaust has tuned lengths on each side (some going outside the chassis!) to a 3 - 1 collector and then a large bore system.
Get in touch with GAjon or Ric Wood, they will put you in the right direction.
It wasn't cheap but the effects were astonishing, after it was fitted my Taimar would out accelerate my Impreza Turbo between 30mph and 90mph!
davidy
What GAjon says is right, he has a specialised exhaust system made by Tony Law through Ric Wood, I had a copy made (also by Tony Law) and the difference in low end power was amazing, made some good noises too! The Tony Law exhaust has tuned lengths on each side (some going outside the chassis!) to a 3 - 1 collector and then a large bore system.
Get in touch with GAjon or Ric Wood, they will put you in the right direction.
It wasn't cheap but the effects were astonishing, after it was fitted my Taimar would out accelerate my Impreza Turbo between 30mph and 90mph!
davidy
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