M Series alternative engines
Discussion
heightswitch said:
AmericanTVR said:
heightswitch said:
or better still a 347 stroker all alloy V8 small block ford and emulate some of the factory sanctioned 5000M's which were screwed together in the states..
Two questions here, does there exist an all alloy 347 and were 5000Ms Ford 302 powered?you can build a 347 version of a 302 in alloy form.
N.
Has anyone ever considered a Ford/Yamaha 3.4L V8 mated to a T-5 in an M Series? I thought it might make an interesting conversion when I get my hands on a 2500M, though I'll probably just go the RV8 or small block Ford route.
AmericanTVR said:
Has anyone ever considered a Ford/Yamaha 3.4L V8 mated to a T-5 in an M Series? I thought it might make an interesting conversion when I get my hands on a 2500M, though I'll probably just go the RV8 or small block Ford route.
I'll guess the ford/Yamaha V8 is too wide for the M engine bay. I have installed a Ford Cosworth 24v V6 this winter, don't think anything wider will fit without modifications to the chassis. I had to turn the alternator and put it in front of the engine.
The 24v V6 is a cheap and quite simple swap, the same power as a tuned essex, but being a stock engine, the drive-ability is better than an engine with a racing cam.
I don't think the 24v v6 was ever sold in the US, so it is probably not an alternative over there.
pelsen said:
I have installed a Ford Cosworth 24v V6 this winter, don't think anything wider will fit without modifications to the chassis. I had to turn the alternator and put it in front of the engine.
The 24v V6 is a cheap and quite simple swap, the same power as a tuned essex, but being a stock engine, the drive-ability is better than an engine with a racing cam.
I don't think the 24v v6 was ever sold in the US, so it is probably not an alternative over there.
Interesting stuff, I thought that Cosworth V6 was supposed to be a very wide engine, and difficult to transplant unless you took the auto transmission which came with it due to the engine management being linked into the autobox. The 24v V6 is a cheap and quite simple swap, the same power as a tuned essex, but being a stock engine, the drive-ability is better than an engine with a racing cam.
I don't think the 24v v6 was ever sold in the US, so it is probably not an alternative over there.
If it's installed in a Taimar/Mseries what other mods (suspension etc) have you had to do. I'm assuming it's lighter than an essex (most small planets are)
Tell me more please
got any photos ?? not finished, but ready for test:
The 91 to 94 model (BOA) can be used with a manual box without any mods to the ECU, the later model BOB is more difficult to convert to manual.
The 24V weigh approx the same as an essex, so there is not any weight savings.
I bought a 91 model that was already converted to manual, MT75 gearbox.
Had to make new engine mountings. The manifolds are modified TVR essex.
A new propshaft is fitted. I also used the diff from the granada, as I had to renew the old diff anyway.
The 91 to 94 model (BOA) can be used with a manual box without any mods to the ECU, the later model BOB is more difficult to convert to manual.
The 24V weigh approx the same as an essex, so there is not any weight savings.
I bought a 91 model that was already converted to manual, MT75 gearbox.
Had to make new engine mountings. The manifolds are modified TVR essex.
A new propshaft is fitted. I also used the diff from the granada, as I had to renew the old diff anyway.
Edited by pelsen on Wednesday 30th May 19:23
Edited by pelsen on Wednesday 30th May 19:26
Looks great and should be a flying machine when finished.The 24V fits without any mods to the chassis or body. It sits approx. in the same position as the Essex, the gearchange had to be modified to fit, but this was simply to fit a new stick directly on the MT75 selector shaft, plus a guide for the stick.
I did the swap without taking the body off, but then I have a two pole lift. It makes jobs under the car a bit easier.
I did the swap without taking the body off, but then I have a two pole lift. It makes jobs under the car a bit easier.
This topic is very open. There're LOADS of options. My own preference/prejudice, something very small and very light. There's only one thing that improves every performance aspect of a car all at once - reducing weight.
I much prefer the character of high-revving engines, with torque and power peaking high in the range, with a broad'ish ramp across the range. I much prefer the character of an engine like the Lotus Twink in my Elan to the Ford 2.8i in my 280i or Triumph 2.5 in my 2500M.
Many folks outside racing circles, particularly folks not in the US, may snicker or scratch their heads at this one, but I really enjoyed the twincam motor in my Dodge Neon ACR coupe (This car was a successful, fun, versatile, well program-supported, inexpensive, factory-built club racer. It scored scores of class wins in SCCA autocross, road racing, and Pro Rally, very often being quicker than MUCH more expensive cars. Some of the best-regarded drivers in these areas of motorsports drove these at the time.) Max torque at almost 6000 rpm, max hp at about 7500. Kinda like the Twink.
LOVE the engines in the Integra Type R and Honda S2000. Just about any Ferrari engine would do, but they're heavy, large, and certainly don't provide a good hp/cost ratio.
I would ask first, how much HP do I want? Before this, perhaps, what do I want this car to do/what kind of car do I want? These kinds of first-questions could help frame the entire program.
I do agree that there's something about a TVR that the torquey motor thing just seems to fit the character of the cars. These are the only types I've driven, though, and I do enjoy the cars enormously with these engines. But I'd like to see what snarling, cracking, screaming, snappy, high-revving engine might feel like pushing around the very good TVR chassis/suspension. From my seat here in the US, the TVR designed and built motors, foibles aside, are a very different character from even the TVR-tuned Rover V8s.
Where I consider I want my toy cars to work best, in club/recreational track venues, I've thought that about 200'ish hp, matched with the appropriate modifications to make the hp work better, like a limited slip diff, appropriate gearbox and ratio choices, etc., would be a plenty quick car on the road courses I might drive here in the northeast US. This would give me about 200hp/ton power/weight, which is about the same as many of the current Porsche 911 (996) models, it would give me enough hp for decent high-speed performance, and probably put the car, provided I'm driving well, into the ranks of the very quickest cars I typically see at these club/group events.
There was a discussion like this on the TVR-USA Yahoo! list not too long ago. Someone was looking at the Suzuki Swift engine. All-alloy, 1300cc, 4v/cyl, twincam. This engine is popular, and tuned, for use in some classes of VERY quick SCCA sports racers. Super light, like under 170lbs. Also very compact. Just think of the benefits of such a weight reduction - reduced polar moment, effectively bigger brakes, effectively more tire contact area/lb, you'd loose some weight in the nose effectively providing an advantageous distribution of a little more mass rearward, etc. Geezz, imagine all the service access that would be around this little motor, too.
Rotary engines are perhaps the engines to beat for their cost/power/weight equation, but I find them very uninvolving. I'm not usually a fan of forced induction, either. It adds complexity, maintenance obstruction and liability, and cost, and I don't usually prefer the engine dyamics to a well-tuned normally aspirated motor.
The Rover V8 is still quite light for a V8. It would be easy to get close to the weight of this engine even with some 4 cyl engines, at which point, I think the Rover would be the way to go. With the V8, you'd obviously and for sure have loads of cubes to play here. The Rover V8 also has many very mature tuning and conversion paths one can follow for a TVR. I think this engine is tough to beat if one goes in the V8 direction.
The new all alloy Mazda motors look REALLY nifty. Also, VERY light and VERY small. There're very high performance factory turbo versions, and I suspect there will be lots of good tuning development around this engine, if not quite now, soon. I've heard/read where the SCCA is going to be using this motor in some cars/classes.
If you're in Europe, though terribly pricey, just about anything with a Cosworth valve cover on it would be very cool. How about an all alloy 2L BD or YBx engine? Yee haw!
Having writ all that, I've never wanted to change the stock/original character of my TVRs. I've never swapped a drivetrain in them, but there's my two whatevers.
- SJ
I much prefer the character of high-revving engines, with torque and power peaking high in the range, with a broad'ish ramp across the range. I much prefer the character of an engine like the Lotus Twink in my Elan to the Ford 2.8i in my 280i or Triumph 2.5 in my 2500M.
Many folks outside racing circles, particularly folks not in the US, may snicker or scratch their heads at this one, but I really enjoyed the twincam motor in my Dodge Neon ACR coupe (This car was a successful, fun, versatile, well program-supported, inexpensive, factory-built club racer. It scored scores of class wins in SCCA autocross, road racing, and Pro Rally, very often being quicker than MUCH more expensive cars. Some of the best-regarded drivers in these areas of motorsports drove these at the time.) Max torque at almost 6000 rpm, max hp at about 7500. Kinda like the Twink.
LOVE the engines in the Integra Type R and Honda S2000. Just about any Ferrari engine would do, but they're heavy, large, and certainly don't provide a good hp/cost ratio.
I would ask first, how much HP do I want? Before this, perhaps, what do I want this car to do/what kind of car do I want? These kinds of first-questions could help frame the entire program.
I do agree that there's something about a TVR that the torquey motor thing just seems to fit the character of the cars. These are the only types I've driven, though, and I do enjoy the cars enormously with these engines. But I'd like to see what snarling, cracking, screaming, snappy, high-revving engine might feel like pushing around the very good TVR chassis/suspension. From my seat here in the US, the TVR designed and built motors, foibles aside, are a very different character from even the TVR-tuned Rover V8s.
Where I consider I want my toy cars to work best, in club/recreational track venues, I've thought that about 200'ish hp, matched with the appropriate modifications to make the hp work better, like a limited slip diff, appropriate gearbox and ratio choices, etc., would be a plenty quick car on the road courses I might drive here in the northeast US. This would give me about 200hp/ton power/weight, which is about the same as many of the current Porsche 911 (996) models, it would give me enough hp for decent high-speed performance, and probably put the car, provided I'm driving well, into the ranks of the very quickest cars I typically see at these club/group events.
There was a discussion like this on the TVR-USA Yahoo! list not too long ago. Someone was looking at the Suzuki Swift engine. All-alloy, 1300cc, 4v/cyl, twincam. This engine is popular, and tuned, for use in some classes of VERY quick SCCA sports racers. Super light, like under 170lbs. Also very compact. Just think of the benefits of such a weight reduction - reduced polar moment, effectively bigger brakes, effectively more tire contact area/lb, you'd loose some weight in the nose effectively providing an advantageous distribution of a little more mass rearward, etc. Geezz, imagine all the service access that would be around this little motor, too.
Rotary engines are perhaps the engines to beat for their cost/power/weight equation, but I find them very uninvolving. I'm not usually a fan of forced induction, either. It adds complexity, maintenance obstruction and liability, and cost, and I don't usually prefer the engine dyamics to a well-tuned normally aspirated motor.
The Rover V8 is still quite light for a V8. It would be easy to get close to the weight of this engine even with some 4 cyl engines, at which point, I think the Rover would be the way to go. With the V8, you'd obviously and for sure have loads of cubes to play here. The Rover V8 also has many very mature tuning and conversion paths one can follow for a TVR. I think this engine is tough to beat if one goes in the V8 direction.
The new all alloy Mazda motors look REALLY nifty. Also, VERY light and VERY small. There're very high performance factory turbo versions, and I suspect there will be lots of good tuning development around this engine, if not quite now, soon. I've heard/read where the SCCA is going to be using this motor in some cars/classes.
If you're in Europe, though terribly pricey, just about anything with a Cosworth valve cover on it would be very cool. How about an all alloy 2L BD or YBx engine? Yee haw!
Having writ all that, I've never wanted to change the stock/original character of my TVRs. I've never swapped a drivetrain in them, but there's my two whatevers.
- SJ
Edited by m2500tvr on Tuesday 19th June 20:55
Hello SJ.
Only 2 ways to go in my book.
Either very big and grunty or Small and Lightweight.
Ford small V8 is a lovely size to transplant and much narrower than the rover and with alloy heads and inlet manifold comes down to a reasonable weight. It also is leagues ahead of the rover in power delivery and torque.
Rover V8 is Light and Packs a reasonable punch but very expensive to tune past 300hp
We have lots of good 4 cyl 16v engines on this side of the pond. The Zetec and Duratec must be considered as the modern BDA / Twink engines and at £2000k ($1000) for a brand new engine inc ancillaries I cannot really understand people who get dirty in scrap yards chancing a second hand motor.
The S2000 motor is a little expensive here and moreso for parts and to be honest would give me a headache. It makes good power though
If i am honest I don't see the point in a Cosworth V6. They are very expensive and difficult to tune past 220hp need an engine management change to do so and for what you gain over a good 16v engine when balanced against weight.
The 2.8 engine really was the poorer relative to the Essex since it only had siamezed ports and as such always was difficult to get any power.
The Essex is another pointless engine in terms of power with all the weight of a V8 and 2 less cylinders. A lot of people don't realise that the Essex was always designed as a Diesel marine Engine until the transit van gave it a home. it sounds Lovely and is very understressed though for a cruiser.
It also Brings complete deranged tuning Lunatics out of the woodwork who contoinue to wring every last horse from the stable
(He'll be along in a minute)
N.
Only 2 ways to go in my book.
Either very big and grunty or Small and Lightweight.
Ford small V8 is a lovely size to transplant and much narrower than the rover and with alloy heads and inlet manifold comes down to a reasonable weight. It also is leagues ahead of the rover in power delivery and torque.
Rover V8 is Light and Packs a reasonable punch but very expensive to tune past 300hp
We have lots of good 4 cyl 16v engines on this side of the pond. The Zetec and Duratec must be considered as the modern BDA / Twink engines and at £2000k ($1000) for a brand new engine inc ancillaries I cannot really understand people who get dirty in scrap yards chancing a second hand motor.
The S2000 motor is a little expensive here and moreso for parts and to be honest would give me a headache. It makes good power though
If i am honest I don't see the point in a Cosworth V6. They are very expensive and difficult to tune past 220hp need an engine management change to do so and for what you gain over a good 16v engine when balanced against weight.
The 2.8 engine really was the poorer relative to the Essex since it only had siamezed ports and as such always was difficult to get any power.
The Essex is another pointless engine in terms of power with all the weight of a V8 and 2 less cylinders. A lot of people don't realise that the Essex was always designed as a Diesel marine Engine until the transit van gave it a home. it sounds Lovely and is very understressed though for a cruiser.
It also Brings complete deranged tuning Lunatics out of the woodwork who contoinue to wring every last horse from the stable
(He'll be along in a minute)N.
Daftlad said:
heightswitch said:
The Essex is another pointless engine in terms of power with all the weight of a V8 and 2 less cylinders.
Are you sure? There are some very quick V6 essex engined cars out there..Look at the Last Line in my last post (tongue in cheek) i am waiting for him to turn up in this thread.
Your car is a point in fact. It has a hair drier motor in the intake
N.
I'm in the US, and contemplating alternative engines for my 2500M myself. I don't want to go the V-8 route, honestly just for the sound. I also have a vintage muscle car and don't need another. I'm wondering if anyone has swapped in a 1.8 liter Mazda Miata/MX-5 engine and trans? It has good aftermarker support, can make 200hp fairly easy, can sound good, and can look like a vintage twin cam motor if equipped appropriately. Any thoughts?
heightswitch said:
Daftlad said:
heightswitch said:
The Essex is another pointless engine in terms of power with all the weight of a V8 and 2 less cylinders.
Are you sure? There are some very quick V6 essex engined cars out there..Look at the Last Line in my last post (tongue in cheek) i am waiting for him to turn up in this thread.
Your car is a point in fact. It has a hair drier motor in the intake
N.
Daftlad said:
heightswitch said:
Daftlad said:
heightswitch said:
The Essex is another pointless engine in terms of power with all the weight of a V8 and 2 less cylinders.
Are you sure? There are some very quick V6 essex engined cars out there..Look at the Last Line in my last post (tongue in cheek) i am waiting for him to turn up in this thread.
Your car is a point in fact. It has a hair drier motor in the intake
N.
N
GAjon said:
Hello!
I resemble that remark.
By the way Neil, on the subject of trunnions (cross threading again) if you spray them with Mr Sheen there worth another 1.6354 BHP.
John
Nothing worse than a purist that doesn't know when to stop
See you at Tatton 2 (with a car?)
N.
heightswitch said:
GAjon said:
Hello!
I resemble that remark.
By the way Neil, on the subject of trunnions (cross threading again) if you spray them with Mr Sheen there worth another 1.6354 BHP.
John
Nothing worse than a purist that doesn't know when to stop
See you at Tatton 2 (with a car?)
N.
"Two questions here, does there exist an all alloy 347 and were 5000Ms Ford 302 powered?"
Dart have an alloy 302 block that can be stroked to 347 and a bit more ....
DA-CC31344175 FORD 302 RACE SERIES STEEL CAP- ALLOY 8.200"DECK / 4.000" BORE $6,923
I just need to find out if I can disguise one as luggage on the next flight back .... the gearbox without the bellhousing and the vented discs were ok but this may be a quest too far :-) One piece at a time .......
Dart have an alloy 302 block that can be stroked to 347 and a bit more ....
DA-CC31344175 FORD 302 RACE SERIES STEEL CAP- ALLOY 8.200"DECK / 4.000" BORE $6,923
I just need to find out if I can disguise one as luggage on the next flight back .... the gearbox without the bellhousing and the vented discs were ok but this may be a quest too far :-) One piece at a time .......
Electron said:
"Two questions here, does there exist an all alloy 347 and were 5000Ms Ford 302 powered?"
Dart have an alloy 302 block that can be stroked to 347 and a bit more ....
DA-CC31344175 FORD 302 RACE SERIES STEEL CAP- ALLOY 8.200"DECK / 4.000" BORE $6,923
I just need to find out if I can disguise one as luggage on the next flight back .... the gearbox without the bellhousing and the vented discs were ok but this may be a quest too far :-) One piece at a time .......
You need to buy an alloy block and Alloy heads then Build your aloominised (as the yanks say) small block. Swapping the inlet manifold and heads brings the V8 down to a reasonable weight aking to an Essex Engine , the alloy block brings it to a rover weight. the ally block is ss sspensive though.Dart have an alloy 302 block that can be stroked to 347 and a bit more ....
DA-CC31344175 FORD 302 RACE SERIES STEEL CAP- ALLOY 8.200"DECK / 4.000" BORE $6,923
I just need to find out if I can disguise one as luggage on the next flight back .... the gearbox without the bellhousing and the vented discs were ok but this may be a quest too far :-) One piece at a time .......
Neil.
Neil,
First engine was all iron with Windsor heads .... heads were found to be porous between a waterway and the exhaust port so ...
Second engine is same bottom end with alloy heads and the offenhauser holley combo moved across.... I save 23lbs off the top of the engine and gain reliability and hopefully 30bhp. The 302 is now the same weight as an Essex.
Third phase will either be a stroker kit or an alloy block with stroker kit.
I have the lower rear wishbones cut away from my spare rear suspension ready to go off to that nice Mr Venn to be strengthened before I fire her up.
Chris
First engine was all iron with Windsor heads .... heads were found to be porous between a waterway and the exhaust port so ...
Second engine is same bottom end with alloy heads and the offenhauser holley combo moved across.... I save 23lbs off the top of the engine and gain reliability and hopefully 30bhp. The 302 is now the same weight as an Essex.
Third phase will either be a stroker kit or an alloy block with stroker kit.
I have the lower rear wishbones cut away from my spare rear suspension ready to go off to that nice Mr Venn to be strengthened before I fire her up.
Chris
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