GRANTURA TO GRIFFITH CONVERSTION

[tuscrv8]

i have come accross a 1965 1800s grantura and was just wondering how hard it was to convert this into a griffith replica
i have restored a lot of cars in the past and i am just finishing my tuscan challenge track car
just been looking on ebay usa and ford 289 engine seem very cheap starting at $150 and going to about $2500 for a fully rebuilt 350bhp engine and with todays exchange rate thats a cheap engine . would it be a viable thing to do or would i be commiting financial suicide

any ideas

[status]

tuscrv8 said:

i have come accross a 1965 1800s grantura and was just wondering how hard it was to convert this into a griffith replica
i have restored a lot of cars in the past and i am just finishing my tuscan challenge track car
just been looking on ebay usa and ford 289 engine seem very cheap starting at $150 and going to about $2500 for a fully rebuilt 350bhp engine and with todays exchange rate thats a cheap engine . would it be a viable thing to do or would i be commiting financial suicide

any ideas

I started out with a free Mustang (302/T5) and a Taimar and am still in the "pull it to bits" phase. I recon I will need £6k of other parts to get a car that drives and is up to the power, before I get any interior or paint work done, and I'll probably have forgotten something non-trivial on my list.... .

(and that's not building something as desirable as a Griffith )

Edited by status on Tuesday 18th September 22:36

[heightswitch]

tuscrv8 said:

i have come accross a 1965 1800s grantura and was just wondering how hard it was to convert this into a griffith replica
i have restored a lot of cars in the past and i am just finishing my tuscan challenge track car
just been looking on ebay usa and ford 289 engine seem very cheap starting at $150 and going to about $2500 for a fully rebuilt 350bhp engine and with todays exchange rate thats a cheap engine . would it be a viable thing to do or would i be commiting financial suicide

any ideas

If you start with a grantura and spend about £10k then you will end up with a griffith replica that will Break, not stop and not handle well at all.

If you budget for approx £20k then you will just about get a car that will do the job you want.

Firstly you will need to cut the body from the chassis and then sell the rotten bits attached to it on e-bay. then you can modify the body to bolt on your new chassis if you can find one. Then you need stronger cast rear uprights and very expensive ground finish Quills. Then you cut the tubes out of the rear top chassis and fabricate mounts to suit a salisbury 4HU Diff. Front end of the engine bay needs new engine mounts and a fabricated lower tie bar bottom tube. Then you need to fabricate the biggest radiator in the living history of the world in Aluminium to stand any chance of cooling the car.

I cvould go on but you probably get the idea.

Let me know if you get the car.

Neil.

[pistolar]

It seems a shame to waste a nice original car

[Daftlad]

pistolar said:

It seems a shame to waste a nice original car

Dont go there!!!!!!...........there will be soap boxes appearing from areas of the globe that never even sold soap.

Signed. A purist........ well........sort of.

[moosetvr]

I know of somebody with a nice original Griff 400 for sale within than money (not me by the way). Mail me if you want more details.

[Daftlad]

moosetvr said:

I know of somebody with a nice original Griff 400 for sale within than money (not me by the way). Mail me if you want more details.

Its a Griff 400, but needs lots of work to get it back to original.

[Electron]

I don't think you can legitimately claim the car is original if you swap out the engine, gearbox, back axle, and build it on a modified chassis.


DVLA’s Current Procedures

27. A rebuilt vehicle may keep its identity provided it retains enough of the original components, including the unmodified or new chassis/monocoque bodyshell. It must also contain at least two major components from the original vehicle. The major components are regarded as the suspension (front and back), axles (both), transmission, steering assembly, engine. If a second hand or modified chassis/monocoque bodyshell is used a Q registration mark will be issued and the vehicle will be subject to one of the following depending on the vehicle type;

Daftlad - looks like mine is a legitimate bast*rd ? :-)

[heightswitch]

Electron said:

I don't think you can legitimately claim the car is original if you swap out the engine, gearbox, back axle, and build it on a modified chassis.


DVLA’s Current Procedures

27. A rebuilt vehicle may keep its identity provided it retains enough of the original components, including the unmodified or new chassis/monocoque bodyshell. It must also contain at least two major components from the original vehicle. The major components are regarded as the suspension (front and back), axles (both), transmission, steering assembly, engine. If a second hand or modified chassis/monocoque bodyshell is used a Q registration mark will be issued and the vehicle will be subject to one of the following depending on the vehicle type;

Daftlad - looks like mine is a legitimate bast*rd ? :-)

You have missed the other key info though. All parts you mention may be legitimately changed provided they are replaced with like for like replacement parts.

thus a car with a new diff, gearbox, chassis and engine can still quite legitimately retain its original ID provided they are OE Spec parts.

Neil.

[Electron]

Soapbox out :-)

I knew this one was going to get interesting and please feel free to pick me up on what I'm trying to point out but .....

I think you have to be **really careful** if you build a "Griffith" from a Grantura.

I'm not picking up on the building of interesting cars. What I would like comment on is if you build a Griffith out of a Grantura I don't think the resulting car passes DVLAs guidelines to retain it's original registration.


To be a little more specific ..

http://www.dvla.gov.uk/media/pdf/consultations/con...

I think you can measure a Grantura/Griffith against the Radically altered score card and draw potentially different conclusions from it.

Quote :-

40. Radically altered vehicles are vehicles that have been substantially altered from their original specification, but are not kit conversions.
41. Although their appearance is different from the original they may still qualify to retain their original registration marks. The vehicle components used from the original vehicle are allocated a numeric value and provided the vehicle scores eight points or more it will retain its original mark.
42. The point system is weighted as follows; the original or new (direct replacement from the manufacturer) unmodified chassis/monocoque bodyshell has a value of 5, the suspension (front and back) 2, axles (both) 2, transmission 2, steering assembly 2, engine 1.

Unquote

I'm not sure how DVLA does it's scoring. The key piece seems to be how you interpret "direct replacement".

The "Griffith" would potentially score ...

A modified chassis - 0 points

Modified rear suspension - 0 points

Axles - 2 points

Different transmission - 0 points

Different engine - 0 points

Steering assembly - 2 points

I don't see eight points with the chassis, rear suspension and the engine/transmission changes and thus it would get a Q plate resigning a perfectly good Grantura to the bits bucket to be lost forever ????

I'll happily bow to greater knowledge and don't want to stop TVR Classic R&D ... but wouldn't a Grantura be lost forever ??

[Daftlad]

Electron said:

Daftlad - looks like mine is a legitimate bast*rd ? :-)

Where is the i'llkeepmymouthshut smiley when you need it.

[heightswitch]

Electron said:

Soapbox out :-)

I knew this one was going to get interesting and please feel free to pick me up on what I'm trying to point out but .....

I think you have to be **really careful** if you build a "Griffith" from a Grantura.

I'm not picking up on the building of interesting cars. What I would like comment on is if you build a Griffith out of a Grantura I don't think the resulting car passes DVLAs guidelines to retain it's original registration.


To be a little more specific ..

http://www.dvla.gov.uk/media/pdf/consultations/con...

I think you can measure a Grantura/Griffith against the Radically altered score card and draw potentially different conclusions from it.

Quote :-

40. Radically altered vehicles are vehicles that have been substantially altered from their original specification, but are not kit conversions.
41. Although their appearance is different from the original they may still qualify to retain their original registration marks. The vehicle components used from the original vehicle are allocated a numeric value and provided the vehicle scores eight points or more it will retain its original mark.
42. The point system is weighted as follows; the original or new (direct replacement from the manufacturer) unmodified chassis/monocoque bodyshell has a value of 5, the suspension (front and back) 2, axles (both) 2, transmission 2, steering assembly 2, engine 1.

Unquote

I'm not sure how DVLA does it's scoring. The key piece seems to be how you interpret "direct replacement".

The "Griffith" would potentially score ...

A modified chassis - 0 points

Modified rear suspension - 0 points

Axles - 2 points

Different transmission - 0 points

Different engine - 0 points

Steering assembly - 2 points

I don't see eight points with the chassis, rear suspension and the engine/transmission changes and thus it would get a Q plate resigning a perfectly good Grantura to the bits bucket to be lost forever ????

I'll happily bow to greater knowledge and don't want to stop TVR Classic R&D ... but wouldn't a Grantura be lost forever ??

Thats the crux though.

My Griffith is still a Vixen? IE It does not get a Griffith ID but retains its Vixen ID. cars are given new identity Q plates under the DVLA scheme if the car being built has "spurious" parts of dubious parentage. IE A second hand Monocoque or Chassis is mixed with other salvage parts to produce a car.

The definition is in rule 27 that you posted which clearly states "Second Hand" the rules don't apply to cars re-built using new parts. Thus in theory If I bought Brand new parts from David gerald I could legitimately build a Griffith and register it on an 07 Plate (obviously not considering new car legislation)

So scoring my Griffen.

Original Body
Original Chassis
New diff but original rest of the gubbins all be it replaced with new parts
Original front end
Second hand engine
Second hand box
original steering

The bottom line here though is that if you are using old bits to build up any car then the old bits are still old. the worst we are talking about is a car being built and asigned a Q.
Nothing is lost forever??

Our Mr Simpson will be rolling off his chair at this (coz he has heard me rant before) but.....

What is original?

Daniel Nash's Ian massey Crosse Built Le-mans Grantura, which has been re-built from a filler cap.

Neil Russel's Griffen racing as a correctly described replica Griffith, running on a genuine 68 body and chassis.

Someone will doubtless bring into play the question of continuous history!!

But all cars have continuous history?

Mine will say, 68 vixen, restored in 1980's by ian keers and ran till 1998, purchased by N Russell and restored again with period parts into a griffith replica.

how does this compare with the Mongoose which is the most bastardised un-original car out there running on a mix of original and granada parts but substantially is considered a very historic car?

I think that 2 issues really exist:

1. Is the passing off of Granturas as real Griffiths.
2. Is the acceptance by the classic racing fraternity that old cars built into replicas of other cars are still Old and probably running in the spirit of the historic regulations more so than the bulk of the so called historic cheque book specials out there.

and breathe.



Neil.

Edited by heightswitch on Sunday 23 September 08:19

[Electron]

Neil,

Looks like we're in wild agreement of the end questions .... :-)

Chris.

[Daftlad]

heightswitch said:

Our Mr Simpson will be rolling off his chair at this (coz he has heard me rant before) but.....

I was until you got to the part that really annoys me....

heightswitch said:

1. Is the passing off of Granturas as real Griffiths.
2. Is the acceptance by the classic racing fraternity that old cars built into replicas of other cars are still Old and probably running in the spirit of the historic regulations more so than the bulk of the so called historic cheque book specials out there.

We think the same. My concern is with the passing of time, the replica builders intent and honesty is lost. Nothing that can be done to close that door 100% for any marque - not just TVR.

Wonder how we would feel if the UK started clamping down on replicas in the same way Italy has??

Edited by Daftlad on Sunday 23 September 08:37

[heightswitch]

Daftlad said:

heightswitch said:

Our Mr Simpson will be rolling off his chair at this (coz he has heard me rant before) but.....

I was until you got to the part that really annoys me....

heightswitch said:

1. Is the passing off of Granturas as real Griffiths.
2. Is the acceptance by the classic racing fraternity that old cars built into replicas of other cars are still Old and probably running in the spirit of the historic regulations more so than the bulk of the so called historic cheque book specials out there.

We think the same. My concern is with the passing of time, the replica builders intent and honesty is lost. Nothing that can be done to close that door 100% for any marque - not just TVR.

Wonder how we would feel if the UK started clamping down on replicas in the same way Italy has??

Edited by Daftlad on Sunday 23 September 08:37

I think there are always car enthusiasts who are skint but honest, and demonic hoodlums who are rich and bent.

At the end of the day to build a fake Griff, an Identity needs to be purchased from the states. I think anyone who would purchase an identity can only have one ploy in mind. these are the people who annoy me. I am proud of my VX155 ID tag which will always wear pride of place on my car which I have built. rest assured John. my car will never be sold. My wife has instructions to bury me in it.

She has threatened to do this on many occasions at the end of the month, usually when she has gotten to the bank statement before me.

N.

[Daftlad]

heightswitch said:

My wife has instructions to bury me in it.
She has threatened to do this on many occasions at the end of the month, usually when she has gotten to the bank statement before me.

N.

Neil,
Off topic, who do you know that you could trust, but would not want to retire from the proceeds, to modify a LWT M bonnet to allow triple 40 downdraughts to breath in an air box. Want to bring the central part of the bonnet gradually up towards the rear maybe 3" max at that point, but keeping the same line as the original.

John

Edited by Daftlad on Sunday 23 September 09:11

[heightswitch]

Daftlad said:

heightswitch said:

My wife has instructions to bury me in it.
She has threatened to do this on many occasions at the end of the month, usually when she has gotten to the bank statement before me.

N.

Neil,
Off topic, who do you know that you could trust, but would not want to retire from the proceeds, to modify a LWT M bonnet to allow triple 40 downdraughts to breath in an air box. Want to bring the central part of the bonnet gradually up towards the rear maybe 3" max at that point, but keeping the same line as the original.

John

Edited by Daftlad on Sunday 23 September 09:11

If Adrian hasn't done it already then Trev Bee would possibly do as a favour via me old mucka John Mleczek over in Blackpool. Does it not fit under std bonnet John with a lowered engine? Geoff's 3000m runs tripple webbers on a swaymar manifold and I thought it was a std but lightweight Bonnet that Venny made up? i'll ask him.
Other than my most trusted mates, Spadge at Cottage Classics is reasonable but a bit of a trek.

Neil.

[Daftlad]

Neil
YHM

[GAjon]

Something like this John?





Sorry off topic, I don't have any opinions on modifying.

John.

[Daftlad]

yes, just more of the same.