Engine upgrades - power and smoothness
Discussion
Hello,
I have only replaced the induction track so far with the full smooth bore ACT pipe kit.
Was reading the Kits & Classics page recently after seeing a You Tube video of a sorted Chimaera that had had lots of work done there. Seems they do a Lucas remap and upgraded trumpet bases. It mentions upgrades for teh 5.0 and the 4.0l.
I have a 450. I would like to improve the driveability mostly (have the throttle pot disconnected at the moment, which massively improved over-run smoothness but is only a temporary fix really) but would also like to get an increase in torque/bhp.
So what's the best bang for your buck at the moment ?
Improve the induction further (trumpet bases, porting, bigger AFM) ?
Improve ignition (coil packs etc) ?
ECU change (megasquirt, Lucas remap)?
Forced induction ?
I'm guessing the first three would improve driveability.
Like to hear from anyone who has the knowledge / experience with any of the above changes (or any better ones!) or knows a good garage that can discuss the options.
Cheers.
I have only replaced the induction track so far with the full smooth bore ACT pipe kit.
Was reading the Kits & Classics page recently after seeing a You Tube video of a sorted Chimaera that had had lots of work done there. Seems they do a Lucas remap and upgraded trumpet bases. It mentions upgrades for teh 5.0 and the 4.0l.
I have a 450. I would like to improve the driveability mostly (have the throttle pot disconnected at the moment, which massively improved over-run smoothness but is only a temporary fix really) but would also like to get an increase in torque/bhp.
So what's the best bang for your buck at the moment ?
Improve the induction further (trumpet bases, porting, bigger AFM) ?
Improve ignition (coil packs etc) ?
ECU change (megasquirt, Lucas remap)?
Forced induction ?
I'm guessing the first three would improve driveability.
Like to hear from anyone who has the knowledge / experience with any of the above changes (or any better ones!) or knows a good garage that can discuss the options.
Cheers.
The big question is how much money and or time do you want to spend. The old Rover lumps are nice motors. But you can spend a small or large fortune on them and still make way less power than more modern V8 engines.
Forced induction can see big power. But usually cost lots too and if smoothness is one thing you are after then turbos probably aren't the way and it'll be a supercharger.
Forced induction can see big power. But usually cost lots too and if smoothness is one thing you are after then turbos probably aren't the way and it'll be a supercharger.
Just spent nearly £3k on service and improvements. Oddly, that makes me feel like spending more on the car. No idea why ? It also needs a full respray as the clear coat has suddenly started failing.
So budget would be around £2k. I like fiddling with the car myself but realistically, I don't have that much time to do it.
So budget would be around £2k. I like fiddling with the car myself but realistically, I don't have that much time to do it.
I'd advise to leave the fuel injection alone if it works properly - it's cleverer than most people give it credit for and if properly mapped there is little if anything to be gained with a system change that can bring its own string of loose ends to tie up - and replace the archaic ignition timing with a mapped system - either Omex ignition with a 36/2 trigger wheel and coil packs or the USB mappable 123tune 'distributor' which is essentially a replacement distributor with no changes needing to be made whatsoever - on the flipside this still runs a rotor and cap.
900T-R said:
I'd advise to leave the fuel injection alone if it works properly - it's cleverer than most people give it credit for and if properly mapped there is little if anything to be gained with a system change that can bring its own string of loose ends to tie up - and replace the archaic ignition timing with a mapped system - either Omex ignition with a 36/2 trigger wheel and coil packs or the USB mappable 123tune 'distributor' which is essentially a replacement distributor with no changes needing to be made whatsoever - on the flipside this still runs a rotor and cap.
Interesting ideas there 900T - not heard of those systems. Are you running / have run either of these ?My Lucas system appears to be running correctly and I have fitted a brand new Land Rover AFM as the old one packed up. The only minor annoyance is the high revving issue that occassionally appeared but I have solved that by setting the stepper position manually with RG and disconnecting it. RG shows all the sensors to be within range and it never cuts out / stalls or any of the other problems. There has always been a hint of a misfire. If you hold a slightly higher rev, you can hear the odd slight drop in revs but never been able to trace the cause.
When you say get the Lucas system properly mapped, do you mean get the ECU chip replaced for a programmable one. If yes, what options would you recommend / have tried successfully ?
Edited by taylormj4 on Monday 23 May 15:04
Without wishing to sound negative to the OP...
If the engine is not running entirely right - as this "fix" might indicate it isn't - simply changing a number of items might:
a) Not solve an inherent issue which is preventing it from performing to its full potential
b) Not allow the new "upgrades" to perform to their full potential.
As in the case of FI upgrades, might it be worthwhile the OP getting the engine running correctly before embarking on a programme of upgrades...?
HTH,
Dom
taylormj4 said:
...I would like to improve the driveability mostly (have the throttle pot disconnected at the moment, which massively improved over-run smoothness but is only a temporary fix really) but would also like to get an increase in torque/bhp....
...does this not sound like the engine might not be working as it should be - and it might be an idea to get this issue fixed and see if there is a noticeable change in character/performance first..?If the engine is not running entirely right - as this "fix" might indicate it isn't - simply changing a number of items might:
a) Not solve an inherent issue which is preventing it from performing to its full potential
b) Not allow the new "upgrades" to perform to their full potential.
As in the case of FI upgrades, might it be worthwhile the OP getting the engine running correctly before embarking on a programme of upgrades...?
HTH,
Dom
Mark Adams and Jools (Kits and Classics) do 'live' CUX14 remaps on the rolling road.
In addition, when booking a rolling road session with either is proving impractical due to location/time constraints, Mark Adams can make you a 'generic' chip based on your car's engine spec (with the addition of an uprated fuel pressure regulated in some cases, like 500s that tend to need a higher fuel pressure before they can be mapped correctly at the top end) that will be bang on most of times in my experience, as the fuel requirements of the RV8 are actually quite relaxed. I have several customers with a chip/induction package from ACT (with Mark Adams chips), all are running well and make good numbers on the rolling road, but if it is not quite right you return the rolling road results (power/torque and air/fuel ratio graphs) to him and he'll get you a new map free of charge.
I'm running the USB mappable 123tune distributor from 123ignition, it's a nicely made piece that does what it says on the tin and with half an hour's worth of rolling road mapping on the lap top with the provided software, my 4.3 got 20+ extra bhp everywhere from 5,000 to 6,000 rpm (which was all we measured), where with the mechanical distributor the engine peaked at 274 hp @5,500 rpm (dropping back to 260 hp @6,000) it made 300 hp @ 6,000 with the mapped ignition.
In addition, when booking a rolling road session with either is proving impractical due to location/time constraints, Mark Adams can make you a 'generic' chip based on your car's engine spec (with the addition of an uprated fuel pressure regulated in some cases, like 500s that tend to need a higher fuel pressure before they can be mapped correctly at the top end) that will be bang on most of times in my experience, as the fuel requirements of the RV8 are actually quite relaxed. I have several customers with a chip/induction package from ACT (with Mark Adams chips), all are running well and make good numbers on the rolling road, but if it is not quite right you return the rolling road results (power/torque and air/fuel ratio graphs) to him and he'll get you a new map free of charge.
I'm running the USB mappable 123tune distributor from 123ignition, it's a nicely made piece that does what it says on the tin and with half an hour's worth of rolling road mapping on the lap top with the provided software, my 4.3 got 20+ extra bhp everywhere from 5,000 to 6,000 rpm (which was all we measured), where with the mechanical distributor the engine peaked at 274 hp @5,500 rpm (dropping back to 260 hp @6,000) it made 300 hp @ 6,000 with the mapped ignition.
Dominic TVRetto said:
Without wishing to sound negative to the OP...
If the engine is not running entirely right - as this "fix" might indicate it isn't - simply changing a number of items might:
a) Not solve an inherent issue which is preventing it from performing to its full potential
b) Not allow the new "upgrades" to perform to their full potential.
As in the case of FI upgrades, might it be worthwhile the OP getting the engine running correctly before embarking on a programme of upgrades...?
HTH,
Dom
Totally agree with this advice.taylormj4 said:
...I would like to improve the driveability mostly (have the throttle pot disconnected at the moment, which massively improved over-run smoothness but is only a temporary fix really) but would also like to get an increase in torque/bhp....
...does this not sound like the engine might not be working as it should be - and it might be an idea to get this issue fixed and see if there is a noticeable change in character/performance first..?If the engine is not running entirely right - as this "fix" might indicate it isn't - simply changing a number of items might:
a) Not solve an inherent issue which is preventing it from performing to its full potential
b) Not allow the new "upgrades" to perform to their full potential.
As in the case of FI upgrades, might it be worthwhile the OP getting the engine running correctly before embarking on a programme of upgrades...?
HTH,
Dom
Also, running 14CUX with a disconnected TPS causes the fuelling control firmware to use a fixed 'get you home' default value (576 mV) for the throttle position, as a result of this important features such as acceleration enhancement and deceleration fuel cut-off are disabled. If fuelling during over-run is erratic try swapping out the TPS for a known good one. The firmware puts a lot of effort into working out the direction and rate of throttle plate travel and whether it is closed or not (for stepper motor control) so it is worth having the TPS enabled.
OP, I'm moving along the same path to a degree. At my last service I was told that my camshaft has 3 worn lobes, 2 of them quite badly. Discussing options with Dan Taylor who looks after my car I am going to have a new 885 camshaft fitted along with ported heads at the same time. We have discussed what sized porting to a degree but not agreed on anything as yet as I wasn't too sure what I was going to do next. However, I am eventually going to get Dom and his team to put an MBE system on the car so would anticipate that porting everything out to 45mm, adding a 72mm plenum and appropriate trumpets would be a good idea ahead of the MBE install.
Before I kick off the work I put the car on a set of rollers and it came out with 245.5BHP and 260LBS of torque in it's current form, which is standard apart from a smooth bore elbow. Once I've had Dan fit the new camshaft and heads etc. I'll put the car on the same set of rollers again and see what my £££'s have bought me and I'll also have a new set of numbers from Dom's RR once he has fitted the MBE system. A picture of an investment and what it gets you so to speak
If you can wait until late June for the first bit to be done you may get an idea of that you get for your money.
Before I kick off the work I put the car on a set of rollers and it came out with 245.5BHP and 260LBS of torque in it's current form, which is standard apart from a smooth bore elbow. Once I've had Dan fit the new camshaft and heads etc. I'll put the car on the same set of rollers again and see what my £££'s have bought me and I'll also have a new set of numbers from Dom's RR once he has fitted the MBE system. A picture of an investment and what it gets you so to speak
If you can wait until late June for the first bit to be done you may get an idea of that you get for your money.
Dominic TVRetto said:
...does this not sound like the engine might not be working as it should be - and it might be an idea to get this issue fixed and see if there is a noticeable change in character/performance first..?
If the engine is not running entirely right - as this "fix" might indicate it isn't - simply changing a number of items might:
a) Not solve an inherent issue which is preventing it from performing to its full potential
b) Not allow the new "upgrades" to perform to their full potential.
As in the case of FI upgrades, might it be worthwhile the OP getting the engine running correctly before embarking on a programme of upgrades...?
HTH,
Dom
Agreed, something is not right but I had thought this must be an inherent problem with the Lucas system that would be rectified by changing to a different ECU chip. Using Rovergauge software, I can see that all the sensors are working. I can take the TPS through its full range and see there are no open circuit spots or other problems. I can step the stepper motor throughout its range manually and all OK / not sticking. The target idle is correct and the speed sensor is working. So unless there is something that RG does not read that is upsetting things, I can't find a fault that would cause the high idle.If the engine is not running entirely right - as this "fix" might indicate it isn't - simply changing a number of items might:
a) Not solve an inherent issue which is preventing it from performing to its full potential
b) Not allow the new "upgrades" to perform to their full potential.
As in the case of FI upgrades, might it be worthwhile the OP getting the engine running correctly before embarking on a programme of upgrades...?
HTH,
Dom
The car has just been in for a service at a well know TVR centre and I mentioned the stepper was disconnected. However I had already tried all the tests and tricks they suggested could resolve the problem and they didn't have Rovergauge.
I agree with your point, if it is a fault it should be fixed first but I am struggling to find anything else that it could be that hasn't been checked and I am not into replacing parts randomnly to see if it resolves.
N7GTX said:
If you still have the plug extenders fitted, now would be a good time to get rid of them. They cause a lot of poor running. Replace with quality leads and fit heat socks to keep them safe from the exhaust manifold heat.
No, got rid of the horrible things several years back when the socks idea first came up on the forums.Have Bosch leads protected by thermal socks and have added lots of lead separators to keep all the leads well separated and away from any metal engine parts that could cause accelerated insulation break down.
900T-R said:
Mark Adams and Jools (Kits and Classics) do 'live' CUX14 remaps on the rolling road.
In addition, when booking a rolling road session with either is proving impractical due to location/time constraints, Mark Adams can make you a 'generic' chip based on your car's engine spec (with the addition of an uprated fuel pressure regulated in some cases, like 500s that tend to need a higher fuel pressure before they can be mapped correctly at the top end) that will be bang on most of times in my experience, as the fuel requirements of the RV8 are actually quite relaxed. I have several customers with a chip/induction package from ACT (with Mark Adams chips), all are running well and make good numbers on the rolling road, but if it is not quite right you return the rolling road results (power/torque and air/fuel ratio graphs) to him and he'll get you a new map free of charge.
I'm running the USB mappable 123tune distributor from 123ignition, it's a nicely made piece that does what it says on the tin and with half an hour's worth of rolling road mapping on the lap top with the provided software, my 4.3 got 20+ extra bhp everywhere from 5,000 to 6,000 rpm (which was all we measured), where with the mechanical distributor the engine peaked at 274 hp @5,500 rpm (dropping back to 260 hp @6,000) it made 300 hp @ 6,000 with the mapped ignition.
Interesting stuff thanks - not hear of 123tune. Will look into that. Does the increase at the top end revs come at the loss of low down torque? I am keener on low down off-the-line grunt as that's the range I use the car in more. The roads I drive on offer short blips between corners so I don't get to get the revs up in the higher 1000s very often.In addition, when booking a rolling road session with either is proving impractical due to location/time constraints, Mark Adams can make you a 'generic' chip based on your car's engine spec (with the addition of an uprated fuel pressure regulated in some cases, like 500s that tend to need a higher fuel pressure before they can be mapped correctly at the top end) that will be bang on most of times in my experience, as the fuel requirements of the RV8 are actually quite relaxed. I have several customers with a chip/induction package from ACT (with Mark Adams chips), all are running well and make good numbers on the rolling road, but if it is not quite right you return the rolling road results (power/torque and air/fuel ratio graphs) to him and he'll get you a new map free of charge.
I'm running the USB mappable 123tune distributor from 123ignition, it's a nicely made piece that does what it says on the tin and with half an hour's worth of rolling road mapping on the lap top with the provided software, my 4.3 got 20+ extra bhp everywhere from 5,000 to 6,000 rpm (which was all we measured), where with the mechanical distributor the engine peaked at 274 hp @5,500 rpm (dropping back to 260 hp @6,000) it made 300 hp @ 6,000 with the mapped ignition.
davep said:
Totally agree with this advice.
Also, running 14CUX with a disconnected TPS causes the fuelling control firmware to use a fixed 'get you home' default value (576 mV) for the throttle position, as a result of this important features such as acceleration enhancement and deceleration fuel cut-off are disabled. If fuelling during over-run is erratic try swapping out the TPS for a known good one. The firmware puts a lot of effort into working out the direction and rate of throttle plate travel and whether it is closed or not (for stepper motor control) so it is worth having the TPS enabled.
Ah. Thanks Dave. My original post was completely incorrect. It's the stepper motor that I have disconnected not the TPS. Sorry everyone. Now your posts make more sense. Of course, disconnecting the TPS would cause all sorts of issues and yes would definitely need fixing. Oops. What a div !Also, running 14CUX with a disconnected TPS causes the fuelling control firmware to use a fixed 'get you home' default value (576 mV) for the throttle position, as a result of this important features such as acceleration enhancement and deceleration fuel cut-off are disabled. If fuelling during over-run is erratic try swapping out the TPS for a known good one. The firmware puts a lot of effort into working out the direction and rate of throttle plate travel and whether it is closed or not (for stepper motor control) so it is worth having the TPS enabled.
Yex 450 said:
OP, I'm moving along the same path to a degree. At my last service I was told that my camshaft has 3 worn lobes, 2 of them quite badly. Discussing options with Dan Taylor who looks after my car I am going to have a new 885 camshaft fitted along with ported heads at the same time. We have discussed what sized porting to a degree but not agreed on anything as yet as I wasn't too sure what I was going to do next. However, I am eventually going to get Dom and his team to put an MBE system on the car so would anticipate that porting everything out to 45mm, adding a 72mm plenum and appropriate trumpets would be a good idea ahead of the MBE install.
Before I kick off the work I put the car on a set of rollers and it came out with 245.5BHP and 260LBS of torque in it's current form, which is standard apart from a smooth bore elbow. Once I've had Dan fit the new camshaft and heads etc. I'll put the car on the same set of rollers again and see what my £££'s have bought me and I'll also have a new set of numbers from Dom's RR once he has fitted the MBE system. A picture of an investment and what it gets you so to speak
If you can wait until late June for the first bit to be done you may get an idea of that you get for your money.
Thanks Yex. Sounds like someone is looking after you there and interested in your car. I must say I would like to get my car looked after by somewhere like that and really knows their stuff. I tried several of the known TVR garages over the years and haven't found anywhere that I have been happy with yet sadly. Where is Dom based if you recommend him ?Before I kick off the work I put the car on a set of rollers and it came out with 245.5BHP and 260LBS of torque in it's current form, which is standard apart from a smooth bore elbow. Once I've had Dan fit the new camshaft and heads etc. I'll put the car on the same set of rollers again and see what my £££'s have bought me and I'll also have a new set of numbers from Dom's RR once he has fitted the MBE system. A picture of an investment and what it gets you so to speak
If you can wait until late June for the first bit to be done you may get an idea of that you get for your money.
I ditched my 14CUX system for a TVR Powers MBE system.... I won't rave about this above other after market systems as I can't bench mark it against other systems.... but ditching the lucas system was the best thing I did, it was past it's serviceable life even after MA had recapped and rolling roaded it (waste of money as didn't fix underlying problem)
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