Advice needed on fitting harnesses

[TroubledSoul]

I need to figure out what to do before I end up buying the wrong thing. I've read previously that you shouldn't mount them to a harness bar because they don't stand up well in accidents. With that I mind, I bought a harness bar but with the intention of using it as a guide and bolting the harnesses to the rear seat belt points. This is because I'd also read that the harnesses being bolted down too low behind the driver is also a bad thing in an accident due to the downward force it exerts.

I have seen a document this morning on Securon's website. It appears to say that you can bolt to the rear anchor points without running the harness over a bar I'm happy to use the bar in my setup.

I guess the part I'm really needing info on is the actual bolting in of the harnesses. Can I use the clip in ones by replacing the seat belt anchor bolts with eye bolts? Are the eye bolts that come with harnesses generally the same thread size/pitch as the oem anchor bolts? Will this be an acceptable method? The car is going to be competing in the road going production class in hillclimbing this coming season.

[tapkaJohnD]

TS,
See the MSA Yearbook, Section K, para 2 and following, and Diagram 39:

https://www.msauk.org/assets/153191commonregulatio...

John

[TroubledSoul]

Thanks John. I'm a bit more confused now though! From the diagram it looks very much like mounting directly to the rear seat belt anchorages would be fine as I don't believe that the angle would be any more than 45 degrees to do so.

Here's where I become more confused; if I bolt in the harness bar and run the harnesses over that, the harness will go straight back from the driver which the blue book prefers, but the angle of the harness AFTER the bar would be more extreme than 45 degrees so would it then be outside of the regs or would it be checked against how it initially is routed after it comes through over the driver's shoulders?

[Thurbs]

Do you need to run with HANS? If so (and I would regardless) I dont understand why a harness bar is not ideal? Having the straps within the -15 degree angle from horizontal of your sholder height is ideal AFAIK.

[TroubledSoul]

Thurbs said:

Do you need to run with HANS? If so (and I would regardless) I dont understand why a harness bar is not ideal? Having the straps within the -15 degree angle from horizontal of your sholder height is ideal AFAIK.

Do you mean mounting the harness directly to the bar? I've seen pictures of them where they've bent in accidents, which is what worries me on that score.

[stevieturbo]

So a harness bar isnt suitable for a harness ?

What exactly is their purpose then ?

What other fixing options do you have for whatever vehicle/seats you are using ?

[TroubledSoul]

stevieturbo said:

So a harness bar isnt suitable for a harness ?

What exactly is their purpose then ?

What other fixing options do you have for whatever vehicle/seats you are using ?

They say they are, but like I said, I've read and seen accounts of them being bent in accidents. As a guide to run the harnesses over though they are fine. I might still mount the harnesses to it but it's a sort of "at your own risk" type of thing and if it's less safe than a seat belt it seems a bad idea.

I'll be running Corbeau Pro Series seats in a Newage Subaru Impreza.

[tapkaJohnD]

The version of the Yearbook I linked you to isn't the latest.
You can see the latest 2017 version here, https://www.msauk.org/assets/bluebook2017completev... page 189

You can see that any strap line behind the shoulder that is above the horizontal is "Not for FHR", and that the line below should be less than 20 degrees, and never more than 45.
See also the plan view - the line should not be more than 20 away from the centre line.

?

[TroubledSoul]

Righto. I'm probably worrying too much to be honest.

If I want to mount to the bar, do I need a harness that hasn't got fixings at the end of the shoulder straps? They don't look removable on the ones I have seen.

Apologies if these are stupid questions to some of you, I just want to make sure I get this right.

[TroubledSoul]

Actually, looking again it looks like they might be removable. Thought they were in stitched loops before but not too sure now.

[stevieturbo]

TroubledSoul said:

They say they are, but like I said, I've read and seen accounts of them being bent in accidents. As a guide to run the harnesses over though they are fine. I might still mount the harnesses to it but it's a sort of "at your own risk" type of thing and if it's less safe than a seat belt it seems a bad idea.

I'll be running Corbeau Pro Series seats in a Newage Subaru Impreza.

And again....I'm sure not all of these bars are created equally, so there is no way to generically say they are no good...or indeed good. So what exactly are you working with ?

I'm sure it would be very easy to get a bar just as strong as any cage bar in terms of bending from a harness load....as surely any bar would be made from the same sort of tube anyway ?

Even if a harness comes with an eye bolt catch on the end, that can be removed and wrapped around a bar instead. Just make sure it is wrapped correctly, MSA book covers it. And ensure no silly angles being pulled.

[TroubledSoul]

Cheers, I think I'm on the right track now. We are planning to attend the local hillclimb's practice day next month so I'll get it all fitted and ask around there whether it's suitable. The road going production class doesn't actually require harnesses so the regs don't seem to be that tight (no pun intended!) around them. I just want to be satisfied it's right and it's safe, hence why I'll buy an FIA approved harness regardless.

[stevieturbo]

Given the hatch will have lots of airbags, good seats and belts, pre-tensioners etc. I'd have been inclined to just stick with the well proven safeties employed by Subaru vs a DIY harness.

For Harnesses, these were suggested to me by another user elsewhere.

http://www.nickygrist.com/turn-one-6-point-harness...

https://www.oreca-store.eu/cockpit/harnesses/harne...

Much better value than a lot of the other stuff. And for some classes where the MSA deem perfectly safe and good harnesses out of date after a very short period of time, it seems pointless spending too much money on a harness.

[Thurbs]

stevieturbo said:

Given the hatch will have lots of airbags, good seats and belts, pre-tensioners etc. I'd have been inclined to just stick with the well proven safeties employed by Subaru vs a DIY harness.

Give me a correctly installed 6 point & hands any day of the week.

To the OP regarding a harness bar, the ones which were bent were clearly not using the correct grade of steel or had defective welds. If you are really worried about it then just floor mount them instead, ensuring a < 45 degree angle if using hans.

No harnes bar bending here and I am no expert but if that was a normal road car I am not sure the outcome would have been as good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0uzMaSsPtw

[stevieturbo]

Thurbs said:

ive me a correctly installed 6 point & hands any day of the week.

To the OP regarding a harness bar, the ones which were bent were clearly not using the correct grade of steel or had defective welds. If you are really worried about it then just floor mount them instead, ensuring a < 45 degree angle if using hans.

No harnes bar bending here and I am no expert but if that was a normal road car I am not sure the outcome would have been as good: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0uzMaSsPtw

If using a HANS, absolutely nowhere near 45deg for the main straps. HANS specify no more than 20deg down from the horizontal, and certainly no higher than horizontal.

And a HANS will do very little the drivers airbag wont do, even more so when you're advising dangerous HANS/harness installation.

[TroubledSoul]

Won't be running a drivers' airbag. I'll probably not run HANS initially but would like to in the future.

[Thurbs]

stevieturbo said:

If using a HANS, absolutely nowhere near 45deg for the main straps. HANS specify no more than 20deg down from the horizontal, and certainly no higher than horizontal.

May be decending in to pendant mode here.

https://www.msauk.org/assets/156-195commonregulati...

Figure 39 below:



45 degrees is legal, but not recommended.

stevieturbo said:

And a HANS will do very little the drivers airbag wont do, even more so when you're advising dangerous HANS/harness installation.

Interesting point which I dont know the answer to. If I were wearing a helmet and especially if in a harness then I would want HANS given how fond of my C1 & C2 vertebrae I am.

[stevieturbo]

And page 4 of the FIA/HANS jargon, nowhere does it suggest anything more than 20deg, nor above 0. Ideal seems to be around the 20 area.

http://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/regulation/...

I wouldnt want a harness at 45deg ever, with or without a HANS and would never suggest to anyone to do it.

If that's the only angle you can achieve for whatever reason....stick with the factory 3 point and airbags etc

[drmotorsport]

I went for may years with my harness main straps attached via eye bolts in the standard seat belt mounting holes for the rear seats with no issues on my Fiesta except for one scruitineer who questioned the angle once. Now the new FHR regs have come along and i have taken the plunge to use a proper harness bar in my reshelled car as its highly recommended by all the FHR manufacturers and MSA to have the straps as close to horizontal as possible for the best fit.

BTW the clue is in the name Harness bar! If it gets bent in a crash then its either defective/fitted badly or your probably not gonna walk away from a crash like that anyway! If in doubt still then look at what the professional race teams do..

[stevieturbo]

drmotorsport said:

If in doubt still then look at what the professional race teams do..

they build race cars lol