Engineered rule bending

[velocemitch]

What a superb thread, restores a bit of credibility to pistonheads, which seems to have lost it recently.

The Brake light trick is still being used on Road Rallies, on my own car I can isolate and turn off the rear lights independent of the fronts. Mind you to be fair that's just Italian wiring!.

It's surprising how many reversing lights pop on when the brake lights disappear too!. Very distracting.

the batteries in the Exhaust trick still happens too.

[Tonsko]

velocemitch said:

the batteries in the Exhaust trick still happens too.

Is that like a banana in the tail pipe?

More seriously, what advantage does it confer?

[velocemitch]

Restricts the Exhaust and keeps the sound down, after the noise test they come back out.

Not much use if the organisors stick another noise test in part way round though.

[Blib]

Flying Toilet said:

Silent1 said:

Thaw that drag car las year that got brought up in the ph drag forums for having a repeatable misfire in the first 60' (IIRC) which it was accused of being traction control,I'll try and find the thread

http://www.insidetopalcohol.com/showthread.php?338...

Have a look at there results this year

Did this issue ever get resolved? Was the accuser correct? Or, did the whole thing fizzle out?

[GWS33]

Cyder said:

Allyc85 said:

I believe one of the front runners in the BTRDA rally championship was accused of runnning Moto Gp fuel and an over sized turbo restrictor in his Focus this year. Never heard any more on the matter, and the better man won any way

I was on that event and can remember the driver of a certain other car which may or may not be linked to a drink manufacturer grumbling about it at the end of a stage.

It may or may not be true that many, if not all of the WRC cars have a 'noise test mode' which allows the rev counter to show the correct value at idle and red line but 'adjusts' itself in the mid range rpm to allow the car to be revving significantly lower than indicated by the rev counter and hence quieter.

I can confirm that certain WRC cars that I have worked on and driven do indeed have a selectable screen on the dash that shows the revs to be higher than the actual rpm.

[andygo]

Slippydiff said:

The drivers who witnessed the aftermath of Henri Toivenen's fatal crash inn Corsica reported the accident looked closer to that of a plane crash than that of a car. I think it safe to say Cesare Fiorio has Henri Toivenen's blood on his hands

Martin Sharp joined the Lancia team on the RAC rally when they were using Delta's (not sure if it was the 8v non arched cars or 8V/16v Integrales) but he too commented on the fact that Lancia were changing fire extinguishers at service areas at the end of every day. He even went so far as to question why they were doing as much in the article he wrote. Safe to assume to he know exactly why, but didn't want to be seen as the whistleblower.


Another Lancia incident on the '92 Monte. Sainz and Auriol are locked in battle in which Sainz appeared to have the upper hand.
At the final service the Integrale is driven in sounding "normal". Having been serviced it leaves sounding distinctly "different".
An engineer from a rival team (not TTE) notices an interesting "trumpet" left in an engineers workstation.
Closer (discrete) inspection shows it to be an "insert" for the turbo restrictor. Machined with such a fine lefthand thread (assumed) that it was indistinguisible when assembled. The LH thread would have stopped the FIA scrutineers trying to undo any insert whilst inspecting said restrictor.

Auriol won the event, Sainz was left shocked by the Frenchman's pace over the final stages .......

Lancia also stood accused of fabricating fuel sampling tanks with separate compartments for FIA sanctioned fuel and illegal fuel.

And one final piece of "rule bending". The cubic capacity of those wonderful 2.5 Alfa Romeo 155 V6 TI DTM cars was, I'm assured by someone well versed with the team, rather larger than the size specified by the sport's governing body ........

I used to own/rally an ex works/RED rs1600i. Rather a lot of liberal suspension fabrication in evidence....

[Flying Toilet]

Blib said:

Flying Toilet said:

Silent1 said:

Thaw that drag car las year that got brought up in the ph drag forums for having a repeatable misfire in the first 60' (IIRC) which it was accused of being traction control,I'll try and find the thread

http://www.insidetopalcohol.com/showthread.php?338...

Have a look at there results this year

Did this issue ever get resolved? Was the accuser correct? Or, did the whole thing fizzle out?

Fizzled out, team in question changed there whole supercharger/fuel system etc to distance themselves from it.

They set numerous records are now in the top 4 of fastest runs in that class worldwide.

So maybe they were that good....

[andygo]

Slippydiff said:

The drivers who witnessed the aftermath of Henri Toivenen's fatal crash inn Corsica reported the accident looked closer to that of a plane crash than that of a car. I think it safe to say Cesare Fiorio has Henri Toivenen's blood on his hands

I heard from a chap who was servicing on that fateful rally. He told me that Toivenen was out of the car and then it blew up with fatal consequences. I have no reason to doubt him, he was a really sensible guy.

[magpies]

It may or may not be true that many, if not all of the WRC cars have a 'noise test mode' which allows the rev counter to show the correct value at idle and red line but 'adjusts' itself in the mid range rpm to allow the car to be revving significantly lower than indicated by the rev counter and hence quieter.

In the late 70's I navigated for a mate who was a college lecturer in 'Physical Electronics' and he designed and built this type of 'switchable' circuitry......a number of cars in the club ended up having these.
Also made 'proper adjustable' voltage controllers for the 11AC alternators to give a constant 14.3 volts

[2fast748]

moffspeed said:

The old Le Mans trick (before modern technology and tamper-proof seals) - ACO rules prevented various engine ancillaries/gearbox parts from being replaced during the race.

Your hobbled car pulls into the pits, the failed part is removed, a mechanic busily dunks the item in a large tank of oil/degreasant and then theatrically lifts it out with a triumphant grin . After a swift check over on the bench the part is returned to the car and miraculously it performs perfectly for the remainder of the 24 Hrs.

The tank is quietly returned to the team transporter and the failed part is spirited away. In the meantime the brand new replacement part that had been deposited in the tank prior to the pit stop enjoys its moment of glory...

Is this were the story of Porsche rinsing their gearboxes with Coca Cola comes from? (I admit I can't remember where I heard the story in the first place!)

Also, when is the truth going to come out about Mercedes' 2014 F1 success (I'm not convinced they're cheating but everybody knew about Red Bulls floppy wings years ago!)

[rev-erend]

2fast748 said:

moffspeed said:

The old Le Mans trick (before modern technology and tamper-proof seals) - ACO rules prevented various engine ancillaries/gearbox parts from being replaced during the race.

Your hobbled car pulls into the pits, the failed part is removed, a mechanic busily dunks the item in a large tank of oil/degreasant and then theatrically lifts it out with a triumphant grin . After a swift check over on the bench the part is returned to the car and miraculously it performs perfectly for the remainder of the 24 Hrs.

The tank is quietly returned to the team transporter and the failed part is spirited away. In the meantime the brand new replacement part that had been deposited in the tank prior to the pit stop enjoys its moment of glory...

Is this were the story of Porsche rinsing their gearboxes with Coca Cola comes from? (I admit I can't remember where I heard the story in the first place!)

Also, when is the truth going to come out about Mercedes' 2014 F1 success (I'm not convinced they're cheating but everybody knew about Red Bulls floppy wings years ago!)

Think it's all about the fuel they used being specifically developed over a long period to match the engine.

McLaren did not have the same fuel supplier and had very little time with the new engine to work with their fuel supplier.

[chevronb37]

rev-erend said:

2fast748 said:

moffspeed said:

The old Le Mans trick (before modern technology and tamper-proof seals) - ACO rules prevented various engine ancillaries/gearbox parts from being replaced during the race.

Your hobbled car pulls into the pits, the failed part is removed, a mechanic busily dunks the item in a large tank of oil/degreasant and then theatrically lifts it out with a triumphant grin . After a swift check over on the bench the part is returned to the car and miraculously it performs perfectly for the remainder of the 24 Hrs.

The tank is quietly returned to the team transporter and the failed part is spirited away. In the meantime the brand new replacement part that had been deposited in the tank prior to the pit stop enjoys its moment of glory...

Is this were the story of Porsche rinsing their gearboxes with Coca Cola comes from? (I admit I can't remember where I heard the story in the first place!)

Also, when is the truth going to come out about Mercedes' 2014 F1 success (I'm not convinced they're cheating but everybody knew about Red Bulls floppy wings years ago!)

Think it's all about the fuel they used being specifically developed over a long period to match the engine.

McLaren did not have the same fuel supplier and had very little time with the new engine to work with their fuel supplier.

Yes - I've heard the split turbocharger is a red herring. The real secret is, apparently, not yet out.

FWIW, from the trackside, the W05 looks exceptionally well-balanced though. The key is definitely not all in the power unit. It's incredible through fast corners.

[Dermot O'Logical]

chevronb37 said:

Yes - I've heard the split turbocharger is a red herring. The real secret is, apparently, not yet out.

FWIW, from the trackside, the W05 looks exceptionally well-balanced though. The key is definitely not all in the power unit. It's incredible through fast corners.

I read an analysis of the W05 which revealed that the car's aerodynamic superiority (to add to its power advantage) stems from the front wing's ability to produce contra-rotating vortices which blend together and induce increased airflow under the front wing and thereby improve airflow through the rear diffuser, aided by a very narrow lower front wishbone with pickups very close to each other on the tub. So close, in fact, that the lower wishbone is, in effect, an aerodynamic aid, which smooths the airflow around the lower sidepod.

[ZX10R NIN]

Dermot O'Logical said:

I read an analysis of the W05 which revealed that the car's aerodynamic superiority (to add to its power advantage) stems from the front wing's ability to produce contra-rotating vortices which blend together and induce increased airflow under the front wing and thereby improve airflow through the rear diffuser, aided by a very narrow lower front wishbone with pickups very close to each other on the tub. So close, in fact, that the lower wishbone is, in effect, an aerodynamic aid, which smooths the airflow around the lower sidepod.

Great Thread

[AW111]

Some years ago, Australian touring cars had to run a stock flywheel.
One of the leading engine builders would remove the ring gear from the flywheel, drill lightening holes from the rim down into the flywheel, then re-fit the ring gear, which concealed the holes.

[Justaredbadge]

AW111 said:

Some years ago, Australian touring cars had to run a stock flywheel.
One of the leading engine builders would remove the ring gear from the flywheel, drill lightening holes from the rim down into the flywheel, then re-fit the ring gear, which concealed the holes.

That's an old walkinshaw trick. The trick is to drill one deep hole, then one short hole, then a deep one etc. That way the holes don't bisect and cause a weakness.

[PhillipM]

Or several stepped holes that are then finished with a tapered reamer if you want even more weight out...

[AW111]

Justaredbadge said:

That's an old walkinshaw trick. The trick is to drill one deep hole, then one short hole, then a deep one etc. That way the holes don't bisect and cause a weakness.

I'm pretty sure that trick pre-dates Walkinshaw. The tale I was told was set in the seventies.

[Some Gump]

IMO that's when "clever rule bending" becomes "clear cut cheating".

Using large fuel lines to hold fuel is clever. Hell, even the Volvo head is clever. Hiding modifications to spec components is just a s trick.

[AW111]

Some Gump said:

IMO that's when "clever rule bending" becomes "clear cut cheating".

Using large fuel lines to hold fuel is clever. Hell, even the Volvo head is clever. Hiding modifications to spec components is just a s trick.

I agree. I have been involved in several special competition vehicles (fuel economy and transcontinental solar), and we have done some creative interpretation of the rules, but flat-out breaking the rules and hiding it is wrong.
Often someone comes up with a hypothetical fiddle, and you think "that would work, and no-one would spot it", but that's as far as it goes.