RE: 800bhp Celica Is Fastest Car At Goodwood
Discussion
Dagnut said:
_dobbo_ said:
Max_Torque said:
btw here is the "Choked restrictor Boost curve" for a WRC restricted specification engine (note, this is not "real data" but normalised data for confidentiality reasons!)
Is that right? 1912nm at 1000 revs? | Engine Speed[rpm] | MAP[abs] | Est. Torque[Nm] |
| 1000 | 1075 | 1912 |
mrmr96 said:
Dagnut said:
_dobbo_ said:
Max_Torque said:
btw here is the "Choked restrictor Boost curve" for a WRC restricted specification engine (note, this is not "real data" but normalised data for confidentiality reasons!)
Is that right? 1912nm at 1000 revs? | Engine Speed[rpm] | MAP[abs] | Est. Torque[Nm] |
| 1000 | 1075 | 1912 |
chuntington101 said:
Max, how effective is a conventional anti lag system in comparison to these external combustion chambers? Also how effective would a wrc style anti-lag system be with a much larger turbo, say something like a garrett gt42rs sized turbo?
Thanks,
Chris.
For "lag reduction" conventional "exhaust manifold oxidisation" ALS is excellent. i.e. in a trailling throttle condition from a previously high throttle condition, the "bang bang" als easily keeps the turbo shaft spinning at high speed, resulting in very little lag when getting back on the throttle. However, it does not work at very low rpm (as there is too little heat availible to sustain the post chamber burn) and it is very hard on components (as you haven't got much control over the burn rate and position, causing huge temp spikes etc, and large pressure waves (which you obviously hear!!)).Thanks,
Chris.
A "combustor system" with a proper flame can and controlled air injection runs down to idle speed, and has a much more stable temperature and pressure profile. This allows you to run the system more of the time (like during a launch event etc) and run closer to the turbo's thermal and mechanical limits.
A friend of mine has actually just fitted the full combustor ALS system to his scooby road car....... which could prove interesting (although i do keep reminding him that the development car we tried the same thing with snapped the output shaft clean off the back of the transmission when launching with the system engaged........... ;-(
On a wrc car with the restrictor, because you are power limited, the major push in terms of engine development has been to make this power across the broadest spectrum of the rev range as possible (largest area under the power curve). On a conventional "Large turbo" system, which always makes more power the higher you rev it, then you simply want to be at high rpm wherever possible. This means that having full boost at say 2000rpm is fairly pointless!.
The case really is that the better your transmission optimisation, the less you require ALS. i.e. ALS = good, being in the correct gear = better
johnfelstead said:
mrmr96 said:
Dagnut said:
_dobbo_ said:
Max_Torque said:
btw here is the "Choked restrictor Boost curve" for a WRC restricted specification engine (note, this is not "real data" but normalised data for confidentiality reasons!)
Is that right? 1912nm at 1000 revs? | Engine Speed[rpm] | MAP[abs] | Est. Torque[Nm] |
| 1000 | 1075 | 1912 |
Max_Torque said:
For "lag reduction" conventional "exhaust manifold oxidisation" ALS is excellent. i.e. in a trailling throttle condition from a previously high throttle condition, the "bang bang" als easily keeps the turbo shaft spinning at high speed, resulting in very little lag when getting back on the throttle. However, it does not work at very low rpm (as there is too little heat availible to sustain the post chamber burn) and it is very hard on components (as you haven't got much control over the burn rate and position, causing huge temp spikes etc, and large pressure waves (which you obviously hear!!)).
A "combustor system" with a proper flame can and controlled air injection runs down to idle speed, and has a much more stable temperature and pressure profile. This allows you to run the system more of the time (like during a launch event etc) and run closer to the turbo's thermal and mechanical limits.
A friend of mine has actually just fitted the full combustor ALS system to his scooby road car....... which could prove interesting (although i do keep reminding him that the development car we tried the same thing with snapped the output shaft clean off the back of the transmission when launching with the system engaged........... ;-(
On a wrc car with the restrictor, because you are power limited, the major push in terms of engine development has been to make this power across the broadest spectrum of the rev range as possible (largest area under the power curve). On a conventional "Large turbo" system, which always makes more power the higher you rev it, then you simply want to be at high rpm wherever possible. This means that having full boost at say 2000rpm is fairly pointless!.
The case really is that the better your transmission optimisation, the less you require ALS. i.e. ALS = good, being in the correct gear = better
Thanks again max,A "combustor system" with a proper flame can and controlled air injection runs down to idle speed, and has a much more stable temperature and pressure profile. This allows you to run the system more of the time (like during a launch event etc) and run closer to the turbo's thermal and mechanical limits.
A friend of mine has actually just fitted the full combustor ALS system to his scooby road car....... which could prove interesting (although i do keep reminding him that the development car we tried the same thing with snapped the output shaft clean off the back of the transmission when launching with the system engaged........... ;-(
On a wrc car with the restrictor, because you are power limited, the major push in terms of engine development has been to make this power across the broadest spectrum of the rev range as possible (largest area under the power curve). On a conventional "Large turbo" system, which always makes more power the higher you rev it, then you simply want to be at high rpm wherever possible. This means that having full boost at say 2000rpm is fairly pointless!.
The case really is that the better your transmission optimisation, the less you require ALS. i.e. ALS = good, being in the correct gear = better
How come there aren't more of these cumbustion ALS system fitted on high end (ie company built) race cars, hill climbers, etc? is it just down to the knowlage or do they take a lot of testing to get right? Also are there any other areas where they are fitted?
Thanks,
Chris.
Lots of interesting comments....
I helped Jonny design and build this Celica, and we have been working together for the last 15 years, starting with him driving my Group N celicas and then Corolla WRC.
We built this car as a challenge to see what we could achieve with the resources we had and the experience built up over the years.
There is indeed a misprint in the peak power rpm - it should be 7500. and the motor revs to 9000 if required. The turbo is unrestricted, and the cylinder head has plus 1mm valves and is flowed by Fraser Mckellar
Antilag cannot be used with nitrous (as a backfire in the inlet would spell big disaster), but the nitrous does indeed help spin up the turb, as well as significantly increasing torque and power.
Compression ratio is as high as we dare go, bearing in mind the Toyota block can split if you go too high on compression and boost (WRC block is not safe above 2.3 bar boost and 11.0:1 compression.) This engine has now lasted 2 years, and we hope much longer ! Power showed at over 850 on a rolling road, but you cannot take such readings as gospel....but it is clearly over 750 based on the vehicle performance.
The body is lightened, but is still original, with normal steel floor, etc. Subframes are WRC tubular and suspension arms fabricated.
Brakes are Corolla WRC with Carbon metallic pads for initial bite. (A lot of components are WRC as they are from the spares package of the Corolla).
The biggest challenge was getting the turbo and supercharger to work together - and that is all I am saying on that !
Fuel is Q16, which is oxygenated and resists detonation very well.
The aero was developed by copying a DTM car and testing it in a home made wind tunnel and at the track - just like the Sierra Sierra Evo time attack car.
The car was built for fun, to prove to ourselves what can be achieved. Of course Jonny always drives his heart out, so it was great to be fastest, but it was also fitting that a classic racing car won the shootout. Goodwood is a festival of speed, and long live the diversity it brings !
And, IMO, a top time attack car like an EVO or RCM Imprezza may well be faster still..........
I helped Jonny design and build this Celica, and we have been working together for the last 15 years, starting with him driving my Group N celicas and then Corolla WRC.
We built this car as a challenge to see what we could achieve with the resources we had and the experience built up over the years.
There is indeed a misprint in the peak power rpm - it should be 7500. and the motor revs to 9000 if required. The turbo is unrestricted, and the cylinder head has plus 1mm valves and is flowed by Fraser Mckellar
Antilag cannot be used with nitrous (as a backfire in the inlet would spell big disaster), but the nitrous does indeed help spin up the turb, as well as significantly increasing torque and power.
Compression ratio is as high as we dare go, bearing in mind the Toyota block can split if you go too high on compression and boost (WRC block is not safe above 2.3 bar boost and 11.0:1 compression.) This engine has now lasted 2 years, and we hope much longer ! Power showed at over 850 on a rolling road, but you cannot take such readings as gospel....but it is clearly over 750 based on the vehicle performance.
The body is lightened, but is still original, with normal steel floor, etc. Subframes are WRC tubular and suspension arms fabricated.
Brakes are Corolla WRC with Carbon metallic pads for initial bite. (A lot of components are WRC as they are from the spares package of the Corolla).
The biggest challenge was getting the turbo and supercharger to work together - and that is all I am saying on that !
Fuel is Q16, which is oxygenated and resists detonation very well.
The aero was developed by copying a DTM car and testing it in a home made wind tunnel and at the track - just like the Sierra Sierra Evo time attack car.
The car was built for fun, to prove to ourselves what can be achieved. Of course Jonny always drives his heart out, so it was great to be fastest, but it was also fitting that a classic racing car won the shootout. Goodwood is a festival of speed, and long live the diversity it brings !
And, IMO, a top time attack car like an EVO or RCM Imprezza may well be faster still..........
DMCMATH said:
The biggest challenge was getting the turbo and supercharger to work together - and that is all I am saying on that !
I was having a nosy round the engine bay in the paddock at goodwood - certainly some interesting plumbing going on in there. I studied what I could see from the top of the engine for a while... but I still couldn't fathom how it works! Clearly it does, though!! 
DMCMATH said:
Lots of interesting comments....
I helped Jonny design and build this Celica, and we have been working together for the last 15 years, starting with him driving my Group N celicas and then Corolla WRC.
We built this car as a challenge to see what we could achieve with the resources we had and the experience built up over the years.
There is indeed a misprint in the peak power rpm - it should be 7500. and the motor revs to 9000 if required. The turbo is unrestricted, and the cylinder head has plus 1mm valves and is flowed by Fraser Mckellar
Antilag cannot be used with nitrous (as a backfire in the inlet would spell big disaster), but the nitrous does indeed help spin up the turb, as well as significantly increasing torque and power.
Compression ratio is as high as we dare go, bearing in mind the Toyota block can split if you go too high on compression and boost (WRC block is not safe above 2.3 bar boost and 11.0:1 compression.) This engine has now lasted 2 years, and we hope much longer ! Power showed at over 850 on a rolling road, but you cannot take such readings as gospel....but it is clearly over 750 based on the vehicle performance.
The body is lightened, but is still original, with normal steel floor, etc. Subframes are WRC tubular and suspension arms fabricated.
Brakes are Corolla WRC with Carbon metallic pads for initial bite. (A lot of components are WRC as they are from the spares package of the Corolla).
The biggest challenge was getting the turbo and supercharger to work together - and that is all I am saying on that !
Fuel is Q16, which is oxygenated and resists detonation very well.
The aero was developed by copying a DTM car and testing it in a home made wind tunnel and at the track - just like the Sierra Sierra Evo time attack car.
The car was built for fun, to prove to ourselves what can be achieved. Of course Jonny always drives his heart out, so it was great to be fastest, but it was also fitting that a classic racing car won the shootout. Goodwood is a festival of speed, and long live the diversity it brings !
And, IMO, a top time attack car like an EVO or RCM Imprezza may well be faster still..........
Awesome car, fair play...thanks for coming on and providing the info.I helped Jonny design and build this Celica, and we have been working together for the last 15 years, starting with him driving my Group N celicas and then Corolla WRC.
We built this car as a challenge to see what we could achieve with the resources we had and the experience built up over the years.
There is indeed a misprint in the peak power rpm - it should be 7500. and the motor revs to 9000 if required. The turbo is unrestricted, and the cylinder head has plus 1mm valves and is flowed by Fraser Mckellar
Antilag cannot be used with nitrous (as a backfire in the inlet would spell big disaster), but the nitrous does indeed help spin up the turb, as well as significantly increasing torque and power.
Compression ratio is as high as we dare go, bearing in mind the Toyota block can split if you go too high on compression and boost (WRC block is not safe above 2.3 bar boost and 11.0:1 compression.) This engine has now lasted 2 years, and we hope much longer ! Power showed at over 850 on a rolling road, but you cannot take such readings as gospel....but it is clearly over 750 based on the vehicle performance.
The body is lightened, but is still original, with normal steel floor, etc. Subframes are WRC tubular and suspension arms fabricated.
Brakes are Corolla WRC with Carbon metallic pads for initial bite. (A lot of components are WRC as they are from the spares package of the Corolla).
The biggest challenge was getting the turbo and supercharger to work together - and that is all I am saying on that !
Fuel is Q16, which is oxygenated and resists detonation very well.
The aero was developed by copying a DTM car and testing it in a home made wind tunnel and at the track - just like the Sierra Sierra Evo time attack car.
The car was built for fun, to prove to ourselves what can be achieved. Of course Jonny always drives his heart out, so it was great to be fastest, but it was also fitting that a classic racing car won the shootout. Goodwood is a festival of speed, and long live the diversity it brings !
And, IMO, a top time attack car like an EVO or RCM Imprezza may well be faster still..........
chuntington101 said:
Thanks again max,
How come there aren't more of these cumbustion ALS system fitted on high end (ie company built) race cars, hill climbers, etc? is it just down to the knowlage or do they take a lot of testing to get right? Also are there any other areas where they are fitted?
Thanks,
Chris.
2 reasons really i suspect for few people using combustor ALS systems:How come there aren't more of these cumbustion ALS system fitted on high end (ie company built) race cars, hill climbers, etc? is it just down to the knowlage or do they take a lot of testing to get right? Also are there any other areas where they are fitted?
Thanks,
Chris.
1) they really only benefit inlet restricted formulas where the track includes lots of low rpm corners etc (like a WRC stage where you have extreme hairpins etc)
2) the amount of time required to get it working reliably. Compared to some form of compound pressure charging (i.e. S/C and T/C etc) it really is very difficult to get working, and requires precise and custom electronic control and actuation etc)
As far as i am aware there are a few people using other "gas producing" systems to spool turbochargers on hill climb cars, but i haven't seen any "integrated" systems in use outside of factory WRC cars yet.
DMCMATH said:
Lots of interesting comments....
I helped Jonny design and build this Celica, and we have been working together for the last 15 years, starting with him driving my Group N celicas and then Corolla WRC.
We built this car as a challenge to see what we could achieve with the resources we had and the experience built up over the years.
There is indeed a misprint in the peak power rpm - it should be 7500. and the motor revs to 9000 if required. The turbo is unrestricted, and the cylinder head has plus 1mm valves and is flowed by Fraser Mckellar
Antilag cannot be used with nitrous (as a backfire in the inlet would spell big disaster), but the nitrous does indeed help spin up the turb, as well as significantly increasing torque and power.
Compression ratio is as high as we dare go, bearing in mind the Toyota block can split if you go too high on compression and boost (WRC block is not safe above 2.3 bar boost and 11.0:1 compression.) This engine has now lasted 2 years, and we hope much longer ! Power showed at over 850 on a rolling road, but you cannot take such readings as gospel....but it is clearly over 750 based on the vehicle performance.
The body is lightened, but is still original, with normal steel floor, etc. Subframes are WRC tubular and suspension arms fabricated.
Brakes are Corolla WRC with Carbon metallic pads for initial bite. (A lot of components are WRC as they are from the spares package of the Corolla).
The biggest challenge was getting the turbo and supercharger to work together - and that is all I am saying on that !
Fuel is Q16, which is oxygenated and resists detonation very well.
The aero was developed by copying a DTM car and testing it in a home made wind tunnel and at the track - just like the Sierra Sierra Evo time attack car.
The car was built for fun, to prove to ourselves what can be achieved. Of course Jonny always drives his heart out, so it was great to be fastest, but it was also fitting that a classic racing car won the shootout. Goodwood is a festival of speed, and long live the diversity it brings !
And, IMO, a top time attack car like an EVO or RCM Imprezza may well be faster still..........
Thanks for posting. Its always very nice to read what someone that actually built the car has to say about it. I helped Jonny design and build this Celica, and we have been working together for the last 15 years, starting with him driving my Group N celicas and then Corolla WRC.
We built this car as a challenge to see what we could achieve with the resources we had and the experience built up over the years.
There is indeed a misprint in the peak power rpm - it should be 7500. and the motor revs to 9000 if required. The turbo is unrestricted, and the cylinder head has plus 1mm valves and is flowed by Fraser Mckellar
Antilag cannot be used with nitrous (as a backfire in the inlet would spell big disaster), but the nitrous does indeed help spin up the turb, as well as significantly increasing torque and power.
Compression ratio is as high as we dare go, bearing in mind the Toyota block can split if you go too high on compression and boost (WRC block is not safe above 2.3 bar boost and 11.0:1 compression.) This engine has now lasted 2 years, and we hope much longer ! Power showed at over 850 on a rolling road, but you cannot take such readings as gospel....but it is clearly over 750 based on the vehicle performance.
The body is lightened, but is still original, with normal steel floor, etc. Subframes are WRC tubular and suspension arms fabricated.
Brakes are Corolla WRC with Carbon metallic pads for initial bite. (A lot of components are WRC as they are from the spares package of the Corolla).
The biggest challenge was getting the turbo and supercharger to work together - and that is all I am saying on that !
Fuel is Q16, which is oxygenated and resists detonation very well.
The aero was developed by copying a DTM car and testing it in a home made wind tunnel and at the track - just like the Sierra Sierra Evo time attack car.
The car was built for fun, to prove to ourselves what can be achieved. Of course Jonny always drives his heart out, so it was great to be fastest, but it was also fitting that a classic racing car won the shootout. Goodwood is a festival of speed, and long live the diversity it brings !
And, IMO, a top time attack car like an EVO or RCM Imprezza may well be faster still..........
also i noticed the very humble last line. Dont put yourslves down, your car has a few things that the RCM scooby and even Norris designs Evo dosen;t! Thanks again,
Chris.
mrmr96 said:
I was having a nosy round the engine bay in the paddock at goodwood - certainly some interesting plumbing going on in there. I studied what I could see from the top of the engine for a while... but I still couldn't fathom how it works! Clearly it does, though!!
My guess, and it is only a guess, would be thatthe turbo feeds into the supercharger (SC). This is the simplist way of doing things and gets rid of the need for any vavles. Also as the SC used (Rotex) is a centrifugal type SC then it should beable to take the preusre and temp better than a positive displacment (roots) type blower. However yu would not get a good low down responce. This is because a centi. SC builds boost wih RPM. sothe higher the revs the more boost. Having said that from all the cars i have seen by the time you get to 3-4krpm you will be making a fiar bit more torque than you will without one! lol THere are other ways, like the SC blowing into the trubo. but these require vavles to allow the turbo to fully breath once upto speed. Have seen it done but its complicated.
thanks,
Chris.
Dagnut said:
_dobbo_ said:
Max_Torque said:
btw here is the "Choked restrictor Boost curve" for a WRC restricted specification engine (note, this is not "real data" but normalised data for confidentiality reasons!)
Is that right? 1912nm at 1000 revs? | Engine Speed[rpm] | MAP[abs] | Est. Torque[Nm] |
| 1000 | 1075 | 1912 |
_dobbo_ said:
But 1400lbs/ft at 1000rpm on a 1.6 litre turbo car - really?
NOOOO this has been exsplaine by Max before. That is the guesstimated toruqe of a 2.oltr engine if it was to max out the airflow of the 34mm restricter at all rpm. It was to show that the restrictor dosen't really come into play untill above 3000rpm. anyone any idea what a WRC engine would make if the restrictor was removed and the turbo swapped out for a larger unit? Could the BMEP (??) be maintained until the rev limit? and if it was how much power could a 2.0ltr make at say 8000rpm?
Chris.
chuntington101 said:
anyone any idea what a WRC engine would make if the restrictor was removed and the turbo swapped out for a larger unit? Could the BMEP (??) be maintained until the rev limit? and if it was how much power could a 2.0ltr make at say 8000rpm?
There was an ex-WRC Impreza hillclimbing down here for a while (Possum Bourne car, driven by Kenneth Eriksson after his death) which was running a claimed 750bhp, it wasn't the most reliable thing around but wasn't far behind Monster Tajima's Suzuki at the time.A "std" WRC 2.0 with the homologated turbo but with the 34mm restrictor removed makes an easy 450bhp. With a larger turbo and some detailed piston ring pack work (because the ring pack is optimised for low rpm and high boost, not high rpm) then high 600's are on the cards without any significant other changes
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