F1 from yesteryear - when F1 wasn't just about money Bernie!

[the other me]

You make me feel like an old Fart, as I have enjoyed F1 in this era. . . however (in spite of Bernie sometimes? ! ) still enjoying it, especially the last 4 years or so as it went down to the line (fat chance this year I guess ? ) & the Girlfriend is 14 years younger than me & still smiles on occasions, so I can't really be an old geek (just yet )

[Ipelm]

andypass said:

Ipelm said:

Just a further thought, do you have any diaries or notes from your grandad that you could maybe include some interesting anecdotes or stories from the golden age of F1?

I haven't found anything else yet; but my parents are just about to move house so may uncover something else......

When my grandfather was alive he di d tell me why the engines were a little unreliable. He figured out that the con rods were a touch too long, which when the engine was hot would expand pushing the piston head into the valves.

On another note - I inherited a wheel; which my grandfather used as a plant pot!

In truth BRM were finished by the 3 litre period, the H16 was a complete disaster which put them behind everyone else in development. Sir Alfred Owen used BRM as a marketing tool and over commited them to many projects. Then there was the weird stuff like experimental military vehicle that 'jumped fences' and other stuff. They never had enough engines and every block was patched and repaired. They often lost power after a few laps because of over heating issues in the cylinder heads. Their best results wre in wet or cool conditions when the engines could breath. Then there was the politics....and what politics they were. Committees to approve design, in fighting, Tony Rudd felt that Matra received a lot of help from someone inside the owen Organisation. As for Louis Stanley, I'll not go there!

Can I suggest that you read 'BRM- A Mechanics Tale' by Dick Salmon (VeloceBooks.com) and Tony Rudds 'It was Fun' )Haynes Books.

Ian

[Ipelm]

skeggysteve said:

jonnylayze said:

.... I am speculating but I believe these photos were taken on Folkingham airfield (scene of BRM testing and now the site of Hall and Hall's operation)

You can also see the pioneering Grand Prix medical centre in one of the pics of which Louis Stanley was patron.

I think they were taken at BRM's Bourne base.
I, also, spotted the medical truck - I remember seeing it at the first GP I went to!

OP thanks for posting

Were these photos taken after the team was disbanded and the cars were being prepared for auction?

When the P153 was first shown to the media I am sure that was done at Bourne and not Folkingham. I can vividly remember the photos at the time as the P153 was a beauty compared to the very round and aweful car (P139??) also shown in the sequence of photos. I can remember my excitement and thinking that this might be the start of a new dawn. Sadly when Stanley got Marlboro sponsorship and they had to enter far too many cars at each race and again they were ridiculously overstretched. This was later when the P153 morphed into the P160. Tony Southgate was some chassis designer.

Edited by Ipelm on Wednesday 17th August 23:54

[Eric Mc]

Didn't they try to qualify 6 cars for one race?

[A Scotsman]

This is why Ecclestone needs the money.....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/8708...

[S18DMW]

That is a brilliant set of pictures. The cars look gorgeous!

[rallycross]

A Scotsman said:

This is why Ecclestone needs the money.....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/8708...

Sounds like he is living on a different planet to the rest of us. Years ago would have said well done to him, a big success but these days think its just gone too far and the sport is ruined - good circuits dropped as they cant afford to make the losses that would result in paying so much to host an F1 event.


Nice photos by the way thanks for sharing.

[Life Saab Itch]

Eric Mc said:

Didn't they try to qualify 6 cars for one race?

I've seen a line up photo of 5 with Helmut Markko as one driver. Not sure about 6.

DCN would know.

[Ipelm]

Eric Mc said:

Didn't they try to qualify 6 cars for one race?

The original plan was actually to enter a staggering 7 cars at each race but they simply couldnt achieve that so they settled on 4 or 5 cars per event. This made development work very difficult and reliability also suffered. Even this number was unsustainable.

To the P160 cars the P180 was added; but I think that this design was very flawed with all of the weight being pushed to the rear. Lotus having pioneered radiators mounted on the cars flanks giving I suspect much better balnce rather than relying weight at the rear for grip. A change of safety regulation finally put BRM out of their misery, but not before a few more hideous cars that are best forgotten about were produced.

Under Stanley BRM were dead in the water. Tony Rudd contends that it was no good having sponsorship if the boss couldnt manage correct spending priorities. This is a polite form of statement!

Ian

Edited by Ipelm on Thursday 18th August 21:20

[jonnylayze]

Life Saab Itch said:

Eric Mc said:

Didn't they try to qualify 6 cars for one race?

I've seen a line up photo of 5 with Helmut Markko as one driver. Not sure about 6.

DCN would know.

They ran 5 cars in Argentina in early '72 (and maybe other races too) for Gethin, Marko, Wissell, Ganley and Soler-Roig. This was unusual in that I can't think of anyone fielding more cars as part of a works team but even at this stage teams of 3-4 cars at each race were not unusual.

BRM were really building momentum in '71 with Siffert and Rodriguez as the lead drivers but both were killed in pretty short order and BRM never truly recovered. They went from having two truly super star drivers to having a range of drivers who can best be described as journeymen in the team: Peter Gethin, Howden Ganley, Jackie Oliver, Helmut Marko and...Niki Lauda. It may be a bit unfair to call Lauda a journeyman but he never truly set the world alight before joining BRM or during his stay with the team.

Back on topic, the photos may have been taken at Bourne and I think that they may have been taken before the cars were sold off in the late 70s/early 80s

[Ipelm]

jonnylayze said:

Life Saab Itch said:

Eric Mc said:

Didn't they try to qualify 6 cars for one race?

I've seen a line up photo of 5 with Helmut Markko as one driver. Not sure about 6.

DCN would know.

They ran 5 cars in Argentina in early '72 (and maybe other races too) for Gethin, Marko, Wissell, Ganley and Soler-Roig. This was unusual in that I can't think of anyone fielding more cars as part of a works team but even at this stage teams of 3-4 cars at each race were not unusual.

BRM were really building momentum in '71 with Siffert and Rodriguez as the lead drivers but both were killed in pretty short order and BRM never truly recovered. They went from having two truly super star drivers to having a range of drivers who can best be described as journeymen in the team: Peter Gethin, Howden Ganley, Jackie Oliver, Helmut Marko and...Niki Lauda. It may be a bit unfair to call Lauda a journeyman but he never truly set the world alight before joining BRM or during his stay with the team.

Back on topic, the photos may have been taken at Bourne and I think that they may have been taken before the cars were sold off in the late 70s/early 80s

Good point about Pedro and Siffert, although Rodriguez who is my absolute hero (I will never forget watching the BOAC500 race in 1970 in the pouring rain, Pedro in a 917) was no development driver which was very important. Actually the loss of Mike Spence (killed at the Indy 500) and Chris Irwin, when the team were running the P126 a couple years before probably was the worst loss from a development point of view. Every team needs a driver that that has the ability to analyse and describe minute differences in handling in an era without the gadgets that they have today, also the energy to push the team into making the car go faster.

I have read that Lauda and his management promised Stanley that his personal sponsor would buy into the team as a way of getting the drive. The truth was that lauda had no sponsor and that this drive was his last chance because he had run out of money!

Ian

Edited by Ipelm on Thursday 18th August 21:42

[Cheese Mechanic]

Here is where they were taken.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=PE10+9LE&hl=en...


Spot the house in the background, over the top of the buildings. That was Raymond May's house. Eastgate house its called I believe.

You can *just* still make out the bricked up doorway to the left of the sliding doors that's clear in the photo with the Ambulance trailer.

Edited by Cheese Mechanic on Thursday 18th August 23:19

[Great Dane]

Great link with Google map... I moved around and zoomed in very spooky...



I was at the 1977 German GP and saw BRM slowly fading away. Car looked good and a nice colour but slow.... I am probably in this grandstand because that is where we sat...

[andypass]

Cheese Mechanic said:

Here is where they were taken.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=PE10+9LE&hl=en...


Spot the house in the background, over the top of the buildings. That was Raymond May's house. Eastgate house its called I believe.

You can *just* still make out the bricked up doorway to the left of the sliding doors that's clear in the photo with the Ambulance trailer.

Great detective work! I like that fact that the discoloured tiles are clear in both photos!

Edited by Cheese Mechanic on Thursday 18th August 23:19

[Great Dane]

Another 'team' where money was not the driving force. This must have been one of the teams that Enzo Ferrari scorned as "garagistes" In this case it was true because the car was contructed behind two garage doors and not in a big factory

http://www.motorsportretro.com/2011/05/connew-form...

http://62.149.36.46/~bruce/cgi-bin/connew.htm

http://www.forix.com/8w/connew.html

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4... a long article

http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=33...

[andypass]

Brilliant - the doors are still open - I wonder if they ever shut properly!

Great Dane said:

Great link with Google map... I moved around and zoomed in very spooky...



I was at the 1977 German GP and saw BRM slowly fading away. Car looked good and a nice colour but slow.... I am probably in this grandstand because that is where we sat...

[Ipelm]

Great Dane said:

Another 'team' where money was not the driving force. This must have been one of the teams that Enzo Ferrari scorned as "garagistes" In this case it was true because the car was contructed behind two garage doors and not in a big factory

http://www.motorsportretro.com/2011/05/connew-form...

http://62.149.36.46/~bruce/cgi-bin/connew.htm

http://www.forix.com/8w/connew.html

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4... a long article

http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=33...

Interesting! I dont remember the Connew, looks like the kind of 'home made project' like the Kitchener in F5000, that deserves the tag 'heroic failure.'

[andypass]

Thanks for the suggestion - I'll get hold of a copy

Ipelm said:

In truth BRM were finished by the 3 litre period, the H16 was a complete disaster which put them behind everyone else in development. Sir Alfred Owen used BRM as a marketing tool and over commited them to many projects. Then there was the weird stuff like experimental military vehicle that 'jumped fences' and other stuff. They never had enough engines and every block was patched and repaired. They often lost power after a few laps because of over heating issues in the cylinder heads. Their best results wre in wet or cool conditions when the engines could breath. Then there was the politics....and what politics they were. Committees to approve design, in fighting, Tony Rudd felt that Matra received a lot of help from someone inside the owen Organisation. As for Louis Stanley, I'll not go there!

Can I suggest that you read 'BRM- A Mechanics Tale' by Dick Salmon (VeloceBooks.com) and Tony Rudds 'It was Fun' )Haynes Books.

Ian

[BrmBoy]

You don't need to wait for the next volume of "Saga" ! - in MotorSport April 1970 page 363 there is a photo of P153/02 at the South African GP. The car is in BRM's version of BRG with orange front and rear wings (but not nose).

The first use of the Yardley colours seems to be The Race of Champions, Brands Hatch on 22 March folowed by the Spanish GP 19 April. (MotorSport May 1970)

jonnylayze said:

It's a P153 I think and I don't believee it ever raced in green (possibly in the South African GP?) but I'm waiting for Doug Nye's Vol 3/4 for confirmation....

[Great Dane]

that is the picture with the five cars.... what is the link to RBR???