RE: PH blog: Why Bernie makes me angry
Discussion
Rich_W said:
Kong.
Lets talk about Mosely. His lasting legacy is that he made F1 safer during his tenure. Particularly after Senna.Ratzenberger incident. He was also right when he pointed out that manufacturers are fickle with motorsport commitments. See Sauber BMW.
CAn you elaborate on your viewpoint please (keep it civil-ish
)
I don't know who was more to blame (Bernie/Mosley) but the following has all happened on their watch: Lets talk about Mosely. His lasting legacy is that he made F1 safer during his tenure. Particularly after Senna.Ratzenberger incident. He was also right when he pointed out that manufacturers are fickle with motorsport commitments. See Sauber BMW.
CAn you elaborate on your viewpoint please (keep it civil-ish
)Engines: V12/V10/V8 - V10, now just V8 only = Boring
Tyres: We used to have two or more tyres manufacturers mixing up the battles in F1, now it's just Pirelli = Boring
Refueling: Used to be interesting to see the different strategies, now it's banned = Boring
Qualifying: Before the entire grid could be turned on it's head in the final few seconds. The 3 sessions means we know roughly the starting order in advance. = Boring
Circuits: Byebye Adelaide street circuit, Buenos Aires, Imola, Magny-Cours, A1-Ring and Hockenheim has been completely ruined. Instead we get these generic flatpack IKEA circuits in Asia, the rot started with Sepang and it's only going to get worse = Boring
Personally I have been an F1 fan for over 4 decades and although the revenues may be high, in my eyes it's stock value has never been lower; all due to the money grabbing antics of this greedy little man.
I now hope for two things:
1. For Bilbo to take the whole circus and permanently f**k off to the Far East, thus killing F1 in Europe forever.
2. That he then retires, leaving it all to his daughters who will be publicly torn to shreds by the more astute, thereby killing off the Ecclestone Dynasty for good.
Only then will we see the emergence and re-birth of F1 as it should be.
Will I be watching it on Sky next year, swelling the coffers of yet another greedy odious individual? There's more chance of HRT winning the 2012 constructors' title.
I now hope for two things:
1. For Bilbo to take the whole circus and permanently f**k off to the Far East, thus killing F1 in Europe forever.
2. That he then retires, leaving it all to his daughters who will be publicly torn to shreds by the more astute, thereby killing off the Ecclestone Dynasty for good.
Only then will we see the emergence and re-birth of F1 as it should be.
Will I be watching it on Sky next year, swelling the coffers of yet another greedy odious individual? There's more chance of HRT winning the 2012 constructors' title.
Edited by radlet6 on Wednesday 7th December 22:59
The story is typical Bernie tactics, say Europe's dead, start a debate and then come back in a few years saying that most of the European circuits have got their act together and made improvements (aka paid more money for the race) but this one didn't so they have lost the race, everyone sighs relief that only one got the chop, its knocked off the calender and replaced with one elsewhere. Job Done!
I'd also consider that given most of the Teams sponsors are global companies its reasonable to consider that not everything Bernie says or does is solely for his personal benefit. Bernie may be the ringmaster but without the performers their is no show and I'd wager that Mercedes and Ferrari wouldn't be too bothered if we lost a race in Europe where they must have pretty much reached the maximum number of sales for their product if it created the opportunity to take the circus to pastures new.
I'd also consider that given most of the Teams sponsors are global companies its reasonable to consider that not everything Bernie says or does is solely for his personal benefit. Bernie may be the ringmaster but without the performers their is no show and I'd wager that Mercedes and Ferrari wouldn't be too bothered if we lost a race in Europe where they must have pretty much reached the maximum number of sales for their product if it created the opportunity to take the circus to pastures new.
I tend to blow hot and cold with respect to Bernie. But there sure is a lot of Hyperbole here!
As has been said he has built the F1 spectacle to a world class enterprise and made a lot of teams rich.
But how can you be a World Champion if you don't race at tracks around the whole developed world?
It HAS to happen that the races naturally spread around the full world stage. IMHO
Bernie has of course made his family trust very rich as well.
At the expense of the sport?? I'm not so sure.
Upset others who wanted to do things their way? For sure.
If my understanding is correct his trust owns most of CVC and therefore he effectively employs himself, as it were.
So his girls will not take over, but I bet that Bernie and CVC have their eye on someone already.
I personally think it could well be Martin Brundle, as he seems to have a genuine affection for Bernie on the grid at times and Martin has been reported to be one of the best drivers managers over the years and seems to be very respected in F1 circles in general??
This Could give him some credibility I suggest??
Whoever it is, he will be a savvy business man, that's for sure.
As for Bernie as a man?
If this tread is anything to go by, I do wonder if he every thinks how many people want to piss on his grave and if he gives a s
t?
As has been said he has built the F1 spectacle to a world class enterprise and made a lot of teams rich.
But how can you be a World Champion if you don't race at tracks around the whole developed world?
It HAS to happen that the races naturally spread around the full world stage. IMHO
Bernie has of course made his family trust very rich as well.
At the expense of the sport?? I'm not so sure.
Upset others who wanted to do things their way? For sure.
If my understanding is correct his trust owns most of CVC and therefore he effectively employs himself, as it were.
So his girls will not take over, but I bet that Bernie and CVC have their eye on someone already.
I personally think it could well be Martin Brundle, as he seems to have a genuine affection for Bernie on the grid at times and Martin has been reported to be one of the best drivers managers over the years and seems to be very respected in F1 circles in general??
This Could give him some credibility I suggest??
Whoever it is, he will be a savvy business man, that's for sure.
As for Bernie as a man?
If this tread is anything to go by, I do wonder if he every thinks how many people want to piss on his grave and if he gives a s
t?VPower said:
If this tread is anything to go by, I do wonder if he every thinks how many people want to piss on his grave and if he gives a st?
No he doesnt. He is rich and arrogant enough and now old enough not to give a stuff. He willbe dead soon and there's nothing he can do about that unless he leaves us with his 100 year legacy...t?While the heart of F1 will remain in Europe, there is some truth in his point economically; development in A-P and China makes Europe look sluggish; they have a single-minded approach to development and work together. We cant even agree on the Euro and Eurozone due to the political needs in each country
UK is a great tourist destination but a far cry from the industrial power it once was
Kong said:
Rich_W said:
Kong.
Lets talk about Mosely. His lasting legacy is that he made F1 safer during his tenure. Particularly after Senna.Ratzenberger incident. He was also right when he pointed out that manufacturers are fickle with motorsport commitments. See Sauber BMW.
CAn you elaborate on your viewpoint please (keep it civil-ish )
I don't know who was more to blame (Bernie/Mosley) but the following has all happened on their watch: Lets talk about Mosely. His lasting legacy is that he made F1 safer during his tenure. Particularly after Senna.Ratzenberger incident. He was also right when he pointed out that manufacturers are fickle with motorsport commitments. See Sauber BMW.
CAn you elaborate on your viewpoint please (keep it civil-ish
)Engines: V12/V10/V8 - V10, now just V8 only = Boring
Tyres: We used to have two or more tyres manufacturers mixing up the battles in F1, now it's just Pirelli = Boring
Refueling: Used to be interesting to see the different strategies, now it's banned = Boring
Qualifying: Before the entire grid could be turned on it's head in the final few seconds. The 3 sessions means we know roughly the starting order in advance. = Boring
Circuits: Byebye Adelaide street circuit, Buenos Aires, Imola, Magny-Cours, A1-Ring and Hockenheim has been completely ruined. Instead we get these generic flatpack IKEA circuits in Asia, the rot started with Sepang and it's only going to get worse = Boring
Also during the Bernie/Max watch, and no coincidence - the destroying of other competing series....and the making of F1 into a mainstream sport, were once it was just for 'Petrolheads/Motorsport afficianados'...
Aside from so many people wishing Bernie dead (I mean, really?!) there appear to be loads of people who think Bernie will step aside and let his daughters run the show.
Nestling between the death wishers and those who think Bernie amassed his billions by being a moron, there are a couple of salient points being made which is frankly re-assuring because otherwise I'd wonder at what PistonHeads has become.
Nestling between the death wishers and those who think Bernie amassed his billions by being a moron, there are a couple of salient points being made which is frankly re-assuring because otherwise I'd wonder at what PistonHeads has become.
ArnageWRC said:
Agree, F1 is basically a 'spec' series, with little innovation, etc and on bland anodyne tracks, who have all paid handsomely for the privilege.
Also during the Bernie/Max watch, and no coincidence - the destroying of other competing series....and the making of F1 into a mainstream sport, were once it was just for 'Petrolheads/Motorsport afficianados'...
F1 is a global marketing and sales machine. The vast levels of money come from the advertisers, this includes manufacturers who are promoting their brand. Also during the Bernie/Max watch, and no coincidence - the destroying of other competing series....and the making of F1 into a mainstream sport, were once it was just for 'Petrolheads/Motorsport afficianados'...
TV is crucial and Bernie was one of the early people to realise that it wasn't about spectators but about viewers.
Bernie knows that he must rule with an iron fist and with duplicity in order to be above the ghastly egos of all involved. Anyone who knows the inside of the BRDC well will know first hand that a group of egos without a dominant and strong leader leads to total failure.
The European circuits are run mostly by hugely out of touch people who think that Motorsport owes them something because they have been around for a while. They are out of step with reality and Bernie often needs to b
hslap these people. The European governments are trying their hardest to kill Europe as a global player with all it's stifling and pious regulations. Again, Bernie will be reminding them that Europe, in their hands, is fast heading towards being a non entity.
Those people who think that F1 is Europe are mistaken. It will retain a presence in Europe for so long as London is the leading financial and shipping centre that it is and that Italy and France still lead the world in desirable clothing and accessory brands. But European companies are finding it harder and harder to advertise on the side of a toxic product that clearly murders a thou sound little children every lap. The tobacco companies are banned, the oil companies struggle because of the green marketing agenda, the banks need different PR.
The European tracks are a nightmare to deal with in contrast to the eager new ones and their local populations are going to have a declining spending power over the coming years. Anyone paying to advertise a global product wants to be where the audience is growing the wealth is growing and because it is new wealth it is easily parted from the viewer.
Those who think spectators are relevant both commercially and culturally are a little out of step with the times. Very few people attend Motorsport events nowadays and it is not as if they are turning up in fleets of Bentleys. It is the tV viewers who are essential.
The sponsorship in Europe is being crushed by regulation and left wing agendas.
The European people have dwindling spending power.
New laws have made closing deals much more difficult.
Those who want Bernie dead. Well, shame on you. You should have a quiet and long sit down and try and work out where you have screwed up in your life to end up in a position where you actually wish harm or death on someone who has done nothing of significance to you. Very sad and contemptible behaviour.
People need to understand that if F1 leaves Europe it won't be because they want to but because the European governments have made their countries totally uncompetitive against the world and because the population are up to their eyeballs in debt because they were so thick as to be unable to stop themselves borrowing more and more to finance a lifestyle beyond their means.
But of course, it's easier to blame others.
Derek Smith said:
coleclough said:
perhaps it was too much to ask because it might have become an interesting thread. Bernie is a remarkable individual. Anyone who could take F1 from an insignificant weekend amateur race meeting at brands hatch to what it is today and do that in their life time is pretty special.To say that he does not like the sport and is only in it for the money misses the point by a few yards even miles.
Did you not see his interplay with Vettel two weeks ago.
His market and audience is the world. not individual circuits. It is pretty foolish to say that the European following is
larger than say Brazil Japan and China.
What remains fascinating is that it has it base here in the UK. We still have the best brains for engineering and because there is not the time to outsource to cheaper countries and because they do not have the skills nor can they deal with such minuscule production runs it will most likely remain here.
It is a shame when we have the worlds best promoter and possible one of the cleverest that the immediate reaction is only to express envy and pour scorn
See managed to say all that without a single swear word.
Cheers
J
Bernie, despite the hype, did not take F1 out of the amateur era. That was done well before his influence with the commercial rights. Bernie did a fair bit when he was manager of Brabham but both Frank Williams/Patrick Head and Ron Dennis did much more to bring the sport into the current professional era. Bernie was separate from the spectacle.Did you not see his interplay with Vettel two weeks ago.
His market and audience is the world. not individual circuits. It is pretty foolish to say that the European following is
larger than say Brazil Japan and China.
What remains fascinating is that it has it base here in the UK. We still have the best brains for engineering and because there is not the time to outsource to cheaper countries and because they do not have the skills nor can they deal with such minuscule production runs it will most likely remain here.
It is a shame when we have the worlds best promoter and possible one of the cleverest that the immediate reaction is only to express envy and pour scorn
See managed to say all that without a single swear word.
Cheers
J
Amateur? I don’t think that is right. Ron Dennis built McLaren regardless of (perhaps even despite) Ecclestone into a massive business. Ferrari were in the wilderness because of the professionalism of the British teams. For ten years, Williams and McLaren were F1 because of their professionalism. Bernie’s influence on the sport came later.
If Frank Williams can run a desire for money with a love of the sport, it is a shame that Bernie can’t. He’s out for the money only. Williams is every bit as acquisitive as Bernie but also has some feeling for F1. The same goes for Dennis. Despite his ‘Business of Winning’ mantra he is first and foremost dedicated to F1. I saw him sitting in the #1 Mclaren GP car and he was out of the world.
What made Ferrari into a professional F1 team was not Bernie but the challenge of Williams and McLaren. Ferrari had to buy the members of its team to get anywhere near the British teams. This had nothing to do with Bernie.
F1 would have survived had not Bernie become involved. The BBC would be running F1, probably not with the investment they have at the moment, but we'd not be gazing at the screen wondering which Tilke creation the cars were wasting their time travelling to.
Amateur? If you accuse Head of that, can you let me know. I like a bit of fun.
Bernie's main influence has been on the broadcasting rights. Everything else he did for F1 was a bit amateurish.
What made Ferrari professional was the return of Luca. No more, no less. Under Luca the first time round Ferrari were the most professional outfit in the Paddock, not even the fore runner of the modern British Team Principal Teddy Alexander could claim to be more professional.
Bernie doesnt care less about the common fans, he never has. He didnt race for them, he didnt build winning teams for them. Now he doesnt have to play to them either, so they remain irrelevent.
cliffie said:
Bernie is in fact doing good things for F1 as far as making sure it remains financially secure. This way he can continue to make the huge payments he makes to the teams and continue to make a spectacle worthy of the TV millions that are oh so important to the sponsors of the teams.
That would be the case were it not for the fact that all of the money raised by F1 goes to venture capitalists CVC to pay off the loans they took out to buy the rights to the sport (which allegedly Bernie has sold and resold several times, each time through bankrupting the owners, re-acquiring the rights by reversion and starting the process all over again).The 'real estate' of Formula 1 belongs to the circuit owners and the teams, which is why Bernie goes to great lengths to talk down the value of these to keep the value of his intangible bits of paper artificially high.
r11co said:
PS. I got banned from the PitPass forum 8 years ago for making the above points, so clearly someone over there must like him.....
They don't like him, they are scared.If Mr E. doesn't like what you say or what you report or print then you will find that your access to the World of F1 does a Verbal Kint.
This is standard Bernie sound bite stuff. He's been saying the same thing for many years. Sometimes it is aimed at the BRDC, sometimes another Country, sometimes a continent.
It does not matter to him if a race is a success or not, only that the fees due to his employers are as high as possible and paid on time - everything else is a side show.
Many people think that because of the way Bernie acts with statements like this that he is because he is purely driven by the greenbacks. This is correct, but only in that area of his life. In others, ie his private life, he has been known to quietly support the careers of a number of people and there are a lot of deals behind close doors that have been financed or brokered by him but which are never reported or openly discussed.
I am not a fan of Bernie but will hold my final judgement until after he and a few other have passed on and the full stories start to become apparent to a wider audience.
Doesn't stop me shouting profanities at some of his comments from time to time though
" 1. First you get da money...
http://www.britishnotes.co.uk/news_and_info/featur...
2. den you get da power...
http://www.f1rules.com/bernie-ecclestone-paid-germ...
3. den you get de women...."
Seems to me like he's re-exercising his right to point 2).
http://www.britishnotes.co.uk/news_and_info/featur...
2. den you get da power...
http://www.f1rules.com/bernie-ecclestone-paid-germ...
3. den you get de women...."
Seems to me like he's re-exercising his right to point 2).
Fail... Epic....
He never seems to give the people what they want, rather what he wants. As a recent fan of F1 (only in the last couple of years) I have noticed that when Ol' Bernie tries to line his pockets (the sky deal for example), it always seems to play out worse for us ''common folk''... unless you suck the corporate big one and actualy pay out for things that used to be free not that long ago. Surely he makes enough money from all the sponsors and track fees???
He never seems to give the people what they want, rather what he wants. As a recent fan of F1 (only in the last couple of years) I have noticed that when Ol' Bernie tries to line his pockets (the sky deal for example), it always seems to play out worse for us ''common folk''... unless you suck the corporate big one and actualy pay out for things that used to be free not that long ago. Surely he makes enough money from all the sponsors and track fees???
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