RE: PH blog: Why Bernie makes me angry
Discussion
gtdc said:
_dobbo_ said:
there appear to be loads of people who think Bernie will step aside and let his daughters run the show.
I have never heard that as a possibility outside this forum. Given they have the collective IQ of an anchovy that seems most unlikely.Rude-boy said:
In others, ie his private life, he has been known to quietly support the careers of a number of people and there are a lot of deals behind close doors that have been financed or brokered by him but which are never reported or openly discussed.
What, like his donations to the Gribkowsky Benevolence Fund? 
The most important points to me are
1. The BBC ran away from the full fee and did a deal with Sky
2. Bernie always has his eye on "The Show" so his comments are usually made to get passions going and remind circuit owners to keep the circuits up to date.
3. The garagistes as you call them are the people who have made F1 such a good show not the motor manufacturers
4. Luca de Montezemelo has dragged Ferrari into making good reliable road cars, and needs to get to grips with the F1 cars
5. My only concerns are
Has Ecclestone committed fraud with F1 sale to CVC and over Bambino Trust and paying hush bribes?-If yes then he should be punished, and resign from F1.
Has Murdoch and Murdoch Junior committed criminal acts via News International?-If yes then SKY and News Intl boards should fire them and confsicate their shares and the US should deport them back to Oz-sorry Oz
Finally The Sky F1 teams looks the best ever with Martin Brundel, David Croft, Anthony Davidson, Ted Kravitz et al-so let's enjoy it in 2012-see you all in Melbourne in March.
Well Done Pistonheads for this democratic forum-unlike the BBC and the Daily Mail ones.
1. The BBC ran away from the full fee and did a deal with Sky
2. Bernie always has his eye on "The Show" so his comments are usually made to get passions going and remind circuit owners to keep the circuits up to date.
3. The garagistes as you call them are the people who have made F1 such a good show not the motor manufacturers
4. Luca de Montezemelo has dragged Ferrari into making good reliable road cars, and needs to get to grips with the F1 cars
5. My only concerns are
Has Ecclestone committed fraud with F1 sale to CVC and over Bambino Trust and paying hush bribes?-If yes then he should be punished, and resign from F1.
Has Murdoch and Murdoch Junior committed criminal acts via News International?-If yes then SKY and News Intl boards should fire them and confsicate their shares and the US should deport them back to Oz-sorry Oz
Finally The Sky F1 teams looks the best ever with Martin Brundel, David Croft, Anthony Davidson, Ted Kravitz et al-so let's enjoy it in 2012-see you all in Melbourne in March.
Well Done Pistonheads for this democratic forum-unlike the BBC and the Daily Mail ones.
yet another i fail to understand Bernie rant,
seriously Bernie knows exactly what saying that means, quite the opposite and anyone with an nuance of knowledge on how his head works knows that, look at what the threat of doningtion did to silverstone, Bernie know DP would never happen, this is a wake up call to Europe to get their houses in order, the threat of loosing SPA, the lack of a French GP, the snooze fest of Valenica. Bernie knows theres only 4 races in Europe worth watching ATM Monaco, Monza and Spa and Silverstone.
the lack of uptake in China ETC means he wants to re jig F1, it will go one way or another, but i suspect Bernie would like it half / half between Europe and the Americas, with the proposed mexican GP and talk of one in Argentina. with a few feature far east races in the end (Japan, Aus, India, and Singapore) since theres talk of already loosing Korea etc. and with Russia coming into it a move back towards Europe for more of the season would be worth it in the end
seriously Bernie knows exactly what saying that means, quite the opposite and anyone with an nuance of knowledge on how his head works knows that, look at what the threat of doningtion did to silverstone, Bernie know DP would never happen, this is a wake up call to Europe to get their houses in order, the threat of loosing SPA, the lack of a French GP, the snooze fest of Valenica. Bernie knows theres only 4 races in Europe worth watching ATM Monaco, Monza and Spa and Silverstone.
the lack of uptake in China ETC means he wants to re jig F1, it will go one way or another, but i suspect Bernie would like it half / half between Europe and the Americas, with the proposed mexican GP and talk of one in Argentina. with a few feature far east races in the end (Japan, Aus, India, and Singapore) since theres talk of already loosing Korea etc. and with Russia coming into it a move back towards Europe for more of the season would be worth it in the end
DJRC said:
You are incorrect with respect to Frank, Patrick and Ron. They very much worked *with* Bernie back in the day to drag the sport into the modern world. As such they have been the main beneficiaries financially from Bernie. The only one of the "garigistes" who didnt go hand in hand with Bernie was Ken Tyrell, but then "Uncle Ken" always went his own way.
What made Ferrari professional was the return of Luca. No more, no less. Under Luca the first time round Ferrari were the most professional outfit in the Paddock, not even the fore runner of the modern British Team Principal Teddy Alexander could claim to be more professional.
Bernie doesnt care less about the common fans, he never has. He didnt race for them, he didnt build winning teams for them. Now he doesnt have to play to them either, so they remain irrelevent.
sorry but you have to go back even further than that. The real commercial innovator was Colin Chapman - being the first team owner to sell space on the car to commercial sponsors.What made Ferrari professional was the return of Luca. No more, no less. Under Luca the first time round Ferrari were the most professional outfit in the Paddock, not even the fore runner of the modern British Team Principal Teddy Alexander could claim to be more professional.
Bernie doesnt care less about the common fans, he never has. He didnt race for them, he didnt build winning teams for them. Now he doesnt have to play to them either, so they remain irrelevent.
Actually the first advertising on a motor car involved in a commercial event was "I think" a wonderful man called Bill Banks who took part in the Monte Carlo rally driving a Ford Zepher. in about late 1950's
It was absolutely against the rules to put any commercial stickers on your car.
Bill had discovered Koni Shock absorbers and had taken on the franchise. So to get round the rules (something that hardly ever happens nowadays!) he thought slightly sideways and went out and purchased the number plate KON 1. Which was of course legal and defined requirement to have on your car. They looked very smart.
All in all a very elegant solution..
Cheers
J
It was absolutely against the rules to put any commercial stickers on your car.
Bill had discovered Koni Shock absorbers and had taken on the franchise. So to get round the rules (something that hardly ever happens nowadays!) he thought slightly sideways and went out and purchased the number plate KON 1. Which was of course legal and defined requirement to have on your car. They looked very smart.
All in all a very elegant solution..
Cheers
J
radlet6 said:
DJRC said:
You are incorrect with respect to Frank, Patrick and Ron. They very much worked *with* Bernie back in the day to drag the sport into the modern world. As such they have been the main beneficiaries financially from Bernie. The only one of the "garigistes" who didnt go hand in hand with Bernie was Ken Tyrell, but then "Uncle Ken" always went his own way.
What made Ferrari professional was the return of Luca. No more, no less. Under Luca the first time round Ferrari were the most professional outfit in the Paddock, not even the fore runner of the modern British Team Principal Teddy Alexander could claim to be more professional.
Bernie doesnt care less about the common fans, he never has. He didnt race for them, he didnt build winning teams for them. Now he doesnt have to play to them either, so they remain irrelevent.
sorry but you have to go back even further than that. The real commercial innovator was Colin Chapman - being the first team owner to sell space on the car to commercial sponsors.What made Ferrari professional was the return of Luca. No more, no less. Under Luca the first time round Ferrari were the most professional outfit in the Paddock, not even the fore runner of the modern British Team Principal Teddy Alexander could claim to be more professional.
Bernie doesnt care less about the common fans, he never has. He didnt race for them, he didnt build winning teams for them. Now he doesnt have to play to them either, so they remain irrelevent.
Virtual Xmas business tokens to whoever says how. (Chevron you dont count geek boy :P )
People angry at Bernie are making the fundamental error of thinking that he wants what is best for F1, over and above what is best for keeping his kids $90m houses. The two are different.
Its easy to forsee a massive shift of F1 racing to countries who can afford the fees, want to get on the world stage and are willing to pay. But its also easy to see some "normalisation" of that as it swings back our (Europe) way after the novelty wears off and the expected ROI isnt forthcoming for places like Bahrain.
And there have been some quite good additions, like Singapore.
Bernie only looks ahead and its always with the intention of upping the fees that get paid to him. Physical crowds are a few steps away from being the past as well. We all know itt and Bernie definitely knows it. As long as TV is willing to pay, who cares how many actual punter cough 50 quid to see the race? Advertisers would rather reach their audience via the TV and multimedia anyway. Soon, advertising on armcos and cars will be hyperlinked, so that during the race if you didnt know who a sponsor was, your internet TV would allow you click on it the name and go straight to the website or automatically register you to receive an emailed brochure. Which would then log directly witht he ad agency to assess the effectiveness of the positioning etc
Nevermind worrying about where the races will be, the underlying truth here is that physical crowds are no longer important.
Its easy to forsee a massive shift of F1 racing to countries who can afford the fees, want to get on the world stage and are willing to pay. But its also easy to see some "normalisation" of that as it swings back our (Europe) way after the novelty wears off and the expected ROI isnt forthcoming for places like Bahrain.
And there have been some quite good additions, like Singapore.
Bernie only looks ahead and its always with the intention of upping the fees that get paid to him. Physical crowds are a few steps away from being the past as well. We all know itt and Bernie definitely knows it. As long as TV is willing to pay, who cares how many actual punter cough 50 quid to see the race? Advertisers would rather reach their audience via the TV and multimedia anyway. Soon, advertising on armcos and cars will be hyperlinked, so that during the race if you didnt know who a sponsor was, your internet TV would allow you click on it the name and go straight to the website or automatically register you to receive an emailed brochure. Which would then log directly witht he ad agency to assess the effectiveness of the positioning etc
Nevermind worrying about where the races will be, the underlying truth here is that physical crowds are no longer important.
DJRC said:
Er nope. Besides discussing professional business organisations and not commercial sponsorship...and Chapman certainly wasnt in the same league as guys like Teddy and Luca...Chapman was still arguably beaten to that commercial sponsorship claim by 20 yrs by Vandervall.
Virtual Xmas business tokens to whoever says how. (Chevron you dont count geek boy :P )
because the team name of Vanwall was derrived from the name of the team owner Tony Vandervell and his companyThinwall Bearings. His first cars were also known as Thinwall Specials.Virtual Xmas business tokens to whoever says how. (Chevron you dont count geek boy :P )
Sorry but that is very different from actively going out and selling ad space on the car to cigarette companies. Chapman was the first to do it and was openly scorned by offiacldom for it.
DJRC said:
You are incorrect with respect to Frank, Patrick and Ron. They very much worked *with* Bernie back in the day to drag the sport into the modern world. As such they have been the main beneficiaries financially from Bernie. The only one of the "garigistes" who didnt go hand in hand with Bernie was Ken Tyrell, but then "Uncle Ken" always went his own way.
What made Ferrari professional was the return of Luca. No more, no less. Under Luca the first time round Ferrari were the most professional outfit in the Paddock, not even the fore runner of the modern British Team Principal Teddy Alexander could claim to be more professional.
Bernie doesnt care less about the common fans, he never has. He didnt race for them, he didnt build winning teams for them. Now he doesnt have to play to them either, so they remain irrelevent.
It depends entirely what you mean by modern world. Bernie organised the transport in the early days. His influence was limited. He just dreamed off the top. The change to the teams, that of the move from amateur to professional, which is what was suggested for Bernie, was done without him. Bernie did his bit for Brabham, I'll grant you that, but he was the start. Williams/Head and Dennis were the real pros and they didn't need any lessons from Bernie.What made Ferrari professional was the return of Luca. No more, no less. Under Luca the first time round Ferrari were the most professional outfit in the Paddock, not even the fore runner of the modern British Team Principal Teddy Alexander could claim to be more professional.
Bernie doesnt care less about the common fans, he never has. He didnt race for them, he didnt build winning teams for them. Now he doesnt have to play to them either, so they remain irrelevent.
It was only later, much later, when Bernie and his little me in the FIA did things with the commercial rights that Bernie's influence became all pervading.
Bernie was mates with Balestre. It seemed to me at the time that Bernie was frustrated that Balestra, for all his many, oh! so many, faults was an enthusiast for the sport first and foremost. Then along came Mosley and things changed and slowly things changed.
You should not mistake the £billions that have rolled in from the commercial rights for professionalism. Teams were very professional way before that.
I went in the McLaren pits at Silverstone after qually in the final year of Senna at McL. This was when Bernie's influence on the teams, apart from the domestic arrangements, was very limited, and it was nothing like amateur. A friend of mine worked for Couthaulds, then sponsors of McL and Tyrell, and he was of the opinion that RD was very, very professional. This was nothing to do with Bernie.
Bernie brought money into the teams but took a fair old cut himself. If the money had not been there then the big teams would still have been professional. Just not quite so rich possibly.
coleclough said:
he thought slightly sideways and went out and purchased the number plate KON 1. Which was of course legal and defined requirement to have on your car. They looked very smart.
All in all a very elegant solution..
Cheers
J
Excellent idea - I've got M4LB0R0 on retention, I'm gonna be rich!!!!All in all a very elegant solution..
Cheers
J
BBC coverage has been brilliant. Brundle and Coulthard et al superb - even Jake (had my doubts) came up trumps and Eddie Irvine is so watchable it is untrue. Latterly in the season I even took to watching practice. Next year - I am going to miss those Sky only races. Nuts. As for Bernie, grace is not his long suit. But when Riggers is taking the drivers for a tour of MK roundabouts (much respect!) maybe he could sample the mood in the car. No Europe, no F1, not as we know it. Truth be told, I suspect the billionaire with the bowlcut knows that too.
Kong said:
I don't know who was more to blame (Bernie/Mosley) but the following has all happened on their watch:
Engines: V12/V10/V8 - V10, now just V8 only = Boring
The Technical Working Group. You know the team managers/Tech directorsEngines: V12/V10/V8 - V10, now just V8 only = Boring
Kong said:
Tyres: We used to have two or more tyres manufacturers mixing up the battles in F1, now it's just Pirelli = Boring
Basic economics. Michelin pulled out because it was expensive/didn't suit their advertising needs. Eventually Bridgestone wondered what the point of beating themselves was. Tyre Wars will come back.Kong said:
Refueling: Used to be interesting to see the different strategies, now it's banned = Boring
1) Safer for all concerend2) Even FASTER pit stops
3) Who wants their race decided by the stops anyway. I prefer on track overtaking.
Kong said:
Qualifying: Before the entire grid could be turned on it's head in the final few seconds. The 3 sessions means we know roughly the starting order in advance. = Boring
Only when it was raining, or getting drier. It was designed to stop the teams just sitting in the garage. It's designed mainly for the people at the track to see their hour of cars racing round. Could do with a few tweaks, but it's infinetly better than the SuperPole style they had.
As said above Derek is normally spot on with his views. But his views on Bernie are WAY off
t load of money to the teams. And the fact that BE got the green light from the powers that be to do that shows how clever a bloke he is.
Only when it was raining, or getting drier. It was designed to stop the teams just sitting in the garage. It's designed mainly for the people at the track to see their hour of cars racing round. Could do with a few tweaks, but it's infinetly better than the SuperPole style they had.
Kong said:
Circuits: Byebye Adelaide street circuit, Buenos Aires, Imola, Magny-Cours, A1-Ring and Hockenheim has been completely ruined. Instead we get these generic flatpack IKEA circuits in Asia, the rot started with Sepang and it's only going to get worse = Boring
Manufacturers/Advertisers WANT to be seen all over the world. Obviously some of these places have no F1 history whatsoever. But they will only be around for the short term. Some of the tracks you mention above are virtually broke through mis management. Why should they get a hand out if the other tracks. Monza, Silverstone, Spa etc don't?radlet6 said:
Personally I have been an F1 fan for over 4 decades and although the revenues may be high, in my eyes it's stock value has never been lower; all due to the money grabbing antics of this greedy little man...
You appear to have not been paying attention to the action away from the 2 hours on a sunday then...radlet6 said:
Will I be watching it on Sky next year, swelling the coffers of yet another greedy odious individual? There's more chance of HRT winning the 2012 constructors' title.
Here we go again. DonkeyApple said:
F1 is a global marketing and sales machine. The vast levels of money come from the advertisers, this includes manufacturers who are promoting their brand....
But of course, it's easier to blame others.
+200 on your whole post!But of course, it's easier to blame others.
DJRC said:
You are incorrect with respect to Frank, Patrick and Ron. They very much worked *with* Bernie back in the day to drag the sport into the modern world. As such they have been the main beneficiaries financially from Bernie. The only one of the "garigistes" who didnt go hand in hand with Bernie was Ken Tyrell, but then "Uncle Ken" always went his own way.
What made Ferrari professional was the return of Luca. No more, no less. Under Luca the first time round Ferrari were the most professional outfit in the Paddock, not even the fore runner of the modern British Team Principal Teddy Alexander could claim to be more professional.
Bernie doesnt care less about the common fans, he never has. He didnt race for them, he didnt build winning teams for them. Now he doesnt have to play to them either, so they remain irrelevent.
Agree.What made Ferrari professional was the return of Luca. No more, no less. Under Luca the first time round Ferrari were the most professional outfit in the Paddock, not even the fore runner of the modern British Team Principal Teddy Alexander could claim to be more professional.
Bernie doesnt care less about the common fans, he never has. He didnt race for them, he didnt build winning teams for them. Now he doesnt have to play to them either, so they remain irrelevent.
As said above Derek is normally spot on with his views. But his views on Bernie are WAY off
Rude-boy said:
.
Many people think that because of the way Bernie acts with statements like this that he is because he is purely driven by the greenbacks. This is correct, but only in that area of his life. In others, ie his private life, he has been known to quietly support the careers of a number of people and there are a lot of deals behind close doors that have been financed or brokered by him but which are never reported or openly discussed.
I am not a fan of Bernie but will hold my final judgement until after he and a few other have passed on and the full stories start to become apparent to a wider audience.
Doesn't stop me shouting profanities at some of his comments from time to time though
Another poster that "Gets it" Many people think that because of the way Bernie acts with statements like this that he is because he is purely driven by the greenbacks. This is correct, but only in that area of his life. In others, ie his private life, he has been known to quietly support the careers of a number of people and there are a lot of deals behind close doors that have been financed or brokered by him but which are never reported or openly discussed.
I am not a fan of Bernie but will hold my final judgement until after he and a few other have passed on and the full stories start to become apparent to a wider audience.
Doesn't stop me shouting profanities at some of his comments from time to time though
radlet6 said:
sorry but you have to go back even further than that. The real commercial innovator was Colin Chapman - being the first team owner to sell space on the car to commercial sponsors.
Sort of. He certainly wasn't the first. Just the first who did a good deal. It was Bernie with the aformentioned that reaslised you need the tracks to pay people to turn up and the TV to pay to film it and give that st load of money to the teams. And the fact that BE got the green light from the powers that be to do that shows how clever a bloke he is.radlet6 said:
DJRC said:
Er nope. Besides discussing professional business organisations and not commercial sponsorship...and Chapman certainly wasnt in the same league as guys like Teddy and Luca...Chapman was still arguably beaten to that commercial sponsorship claim by 20 yrs by Vandervall.
Virtual Xmas business tokens to whoever says how. (Chevron you dont count geek boy :P )
because the team name of Vanwall was derrived from the name of the team owner Tony Vandervell and his companyThinwall Bearings. His first cars were also known as Thinwall Specials.Virtual Xmas business tokens to whoever says how. (Chevron you dont count geek boy :P )
Sorry but that is very different from actively going out and selling ad space on the car to cigarette companies. Chapman was the first to do it and was openly scorned by offiacldom for it.
And no it isnt different. It is *exactly* what Chapman did. The Thinwall Special was pure ad space for Vandervell. The only difference was that Chapman did it with cig companies and was a factory team.
Vanwall conversely doesnt count as that wasnt a commercial enterprise for Vandervell, it was purely about being "those bloody red cars" and cost him a fortune.
Derek Smith said:
DJRC said:
You are incorrect with respect to Frank, Patrick and Ron. They very much worked *with* Bernie back in the day to drag the sport into the modern world. As such they have been the main beneficiaries financially from Bernie. The only one of the "garigistes" who didnt go hand in hand with Bernie was Ken Tyrell, but then "Uncle Ken" always went his own way.
What made Ferrari professional was the return of Luca. No more, no less. Under Luca the first time round Ferrari were the most professional outfit in the Paddock, not even the fore runner of the modern British Team Principal Teddy Alexander could claim to be more professional.
Bernie doesnt care less about the common fans, he never has. He didnt race for them, he didnt build winning teams for them. Now he doesnt have to play to them either, so they remain irrelevent.
It depends entirely what you mean by modern world. Bernie organised the transport in the early days. His influence was limited. He just dreamed off the top. The change to the teams, that of the move from amateur to professional, which is what was suggested for Bernie, was done without him. Bernie did his bit for Brabham, I'll grant you that, but he was the start. Williams/Head and Dennis were the real pros and they didn't need any lessons from Bernie.What made Ferrari professional was the return of Luca. No more, no less. Under Luca the first time round Ferrari were the most professional outfit in the Paddock, not even the fore runner of the modern British Team Principal Teddy Alexander could claim to be more professional.
Bernie doesnt care less about the common fans, he never has. He didnt race for them, he didnt build winning teams for them. Now he doesnt have to play to them either, so they remain irrelevent.
It was only later, much later, when Bernie and his little me in the FIA did things with the commercial rights that Bernie's influence became all pervading.
Bernie was mates with Balestre. It seemed to me at the time that Bernie was frustrated that Balestra, for all his many, oh! so many, faults was an enthusiast for the sport first and foremost. Then along came Mosley and things changed and slowly things changed.
You should not mistake the £billions that have rolled in from the commercial rights for professionalism. Teams were very professional way before that.
I went in the McLaren pits at Silverstone after qually in the final year of Senna at McL. This was when Bernie's influence on the teams, apart from the domestic arrangements, was very limited, and it was nothing like amateur. A friend of mine worked for Couthaulds, then sponsors of McL and Tyrell, and he was of the opinion that RD was very, very professional. This was nothing to do with Bernie.
Bernie brought money into the teams but took a fair old cut himself. If the money had not been there then the big teams would still have been professional. Just not quite so rich possibly.
I was expecting to get back tonight and read a post from you asking who the hell Teddy Alexander was!!! I did of course mean Teddy Mayer and the only reason I realised that mistake was because I was reading Peter Gethin's obit this evening!
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