RE: Nissan DeltaWing: the full story

RE: Nissan DeltaWing: the full story

Author
Discussion

zac510

5,546 posts

205 months

Friday 22nd June 2012
quotequote all
To build that car, win the support of ACO, Nissan and take it to Le Mans is a far greater achievement than I'm ever likely to achieve in my lifetime. Ignoring the car entirely my respect is for the motivation and abilities of the engineers, Bowlby, team and drivers who took it racing.

Nick M

3,624 posts

222 months

Friday 22nd June 2012
quotequote all

Actually, I see exactly where VM is coming from, and it's been mentioned before by other commentators in the motoring press, websites, etc.

It's *not* innovative, just different. It doesn't do anything new in and of itself, but it is presenting a light-wieight, small engined racing car in a different form.

However...

It got a lot of interest because it's different, and by being different it allowed the chance to test, and to some extent prove, the concept that more efficient racing cars could run at Le Mans and not disgrace themselves in terms of safety and speed.

So yes, it was a solution looking for a problem, but I think to some extent it found its problem and can help pave the way for possibly more conventional looking cars but which are more efficient and, dare I say it, 'greener'.

VictorMeldrew

8,293 posts

276 months

Friday 22nd June 2012
quotequote all
I think that might have some truth to it. There is certainly more than a whiff of marketing about the whole exercise.

Personally I've always been an advocate of lightness*, so from an engineering perspective I 100% support that aspect of the DeltaWing, but the shape just screams gimmick to me.

* Back in the eighties I put together a bike based on a Yamaha 400 but with a race engine making 750 bike power, which was featured in Bike magazine. I bought the first GSXR750 model when it came out and ran it in drag races totally stock and creamed 1300cc drag modified Suzukis. I have a TVR, and I have owned a number of aluminium bodied Audi's. I'd have had an Elise if I could have got in one. I GET the light weight thing!

groomi

9,317 posts

242 months

Friday 22nd June 2012
quotequote all
VictorMeldrew said:
...I have owned a number of aluminium bodied Audi's.

I DON'T GET the light weight thing![/small]
Aren't they actually no lighter than the equivalent steel bodied BMW/Merc/Jag etc? wink

zac510

5,546 posts

205 months

Friday 22nd June 2012
quotequote all
That'd be an Audi with a aluminium body but a 150kg gearbox biggrin

scubadude

2,618 posts

196 months

Friday 22nd June 2012
quotequote all
VictorMeldrew said:
Even that original premise is fatally, and obviously, flawed though Eric. It exposes the rear wheel instead, and the entire side of the car, and basically turns the entire racecar into a wedge designed to punt other cars into the air. Not surprised it got rejected.

The whole thing smacks of an engineering vanity project - a solution looking for a problem. Which fits with them trying at at Le Mans I suppose. I just can't help thinking comon sense got left at the door somewhere along the line. "I want to race a souped up Reliant Robin at Le Mans please". The answer should be eye bleedingly obvious.
Sorry One-foot-in-the-Grave man, you are wrong.

Unless you can think of another example of a "half" car competing on a level with LMP2 cars? (Half power, weight, drag etc as per the design)

Had it run longer I suspect it would have crept up the standings (I know it didn't qualify) as it was more economical on tyres and fuel, Le Mans as originally concieved is an endurance race for different types of car to compete, with that in mind the Deltawing WAS successful, it did what it claimed and made the Designers and Nissan a shed load of advertising (and a newfound respect for the Juke engine!)

More fool the Yanks for not picking it, can you imagine 50 DW's on a oval at 200mph?!!!

VictorMeldrew

8,293 posts

276 months

Friday 22nd June 2012
quotequote all
groomi said:
Aren't they actually no lighter than the equivalent steel bodied BMW/Merc/Jag etc? wink
Really? Not sure that's actually true if you are referring to the A8. And I don't recall any BMW/Merc equivalent to an A2.

VictorMeldrew

8,293 posts

276 months

Friday 22nd June 2012
quotequote all
zac510 said:
That'd be an Audi with a aluminium body but a 150kg gearbox biggrin
Exactly, even with 4WD the A8 is lighter than a Merc or BMW. Maybe not by much, but subtract the weight of the 4WD and its a different story.

VictorMeldrew

8,293 posts

276 months

Friday 22nd June 2012
quotequote all
scubadude said:
if and buts
or ... in actuality it didn't finish, it went off after a nudge that didn't look that serious, and sustained terminal damage to a driveshaft (exposed by the design to impact damage maybe?) that such a featherweight crisp packet of a car shouldn't really have sustained.

Opinions may vary.

Eric Mc

121,779 posts

264 months

Friday 22nd June 2012
quotequote all
Lightweight cars have competed at Le Mans before - and even won their class.

david_b

413 posts

242 months

Friday 22nd June 2012
quotequote all
VictorMeldrew said:
or ... in actuality it didn't finish, it went off after a nudge that didn't look that serious, and sustained terminal damage to a driveshaft (exposed by the design to impact damage maybe?) that such a featherweight crisp packet of a car shouldn't really have sustained.
It survived a hard hit into a solid concrete wall remarkably well IMO. The video below was a similar minor "nudge" that doesn't look very serious, but resulted in a normal four wheeled car heading straight off the circuit into a wall as well. A lot of the damage is caused by the second impact, but it was hardly unscathed in the first place...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detail...

Great Dane

2,719 posts

165 months

Saturday 23rd June 2012
quotequote all
I saw it race and I was impressed (and I was the biggest sceptic - expecting it to crash in the Dunlop chicane first time out) over 300k down the straight from a 1.6l engine is very impressive

Northern Munkee

5,354 posts

199 months

Sunday 24th June 2012
quotequote all
scubadude said:
Sorry One-foot-in-the-Grave man, you are wrong.

Unless you can think of another example of a "half" car competing on a level with LMP2 cars? (Half power, weight, drag etc as per the design)

Had it run longer I suspect it would have crept up the standings (I know it didn't qualify) as it was more economical on tyres and fuel, Le Mans as originally concieved is an endurance race for different types of car to compete, with that in mind the Deltawing WAS successful, it did what it claimed and made the Designers and Nissan a shed load of advertising (and a newfound respect for the Juke engine!)

More fool the Yanks for not picking it, can you imagine 50 DW's on a oval at 200mph?!!!
I can remember the LMP675 MG car of Blundell being as quick as the LMP900s. Does that count, then the ACO just tweaked the rules to slow them down (to LMP2) I have no doubt that if the ACO would let a designer have a blank piece of paper they could make a more conventional looking or indeed perhaps more outlandish design do just as well, and I wish they would 1 experimental car running outside the rules is amusing but a bit pointless for a "competition", where 55 other cars are within a defined sets of rules. They should build another 10 garages (which they are sounding like the might be, if they can fit them into the pitlane) define a total amount of energy for 24hrs, a safety cell and max set of dimensions and leave everything else free, and give it a EXP class to compete in.

If they are serious.

VictorMeldrew

8,293 posts

276 months

Monday 25th June 2012
quotequote all
Northern Munkee said:
I can remember the LMP675 MG car of Blundell being as quick as the LMP900s. Does that count, then the ACO just tweaked the rules to slow them down (to LMP2) I have no doubt that if the ACO would let a designer have a blank piece of paper they could make a more conventional looking or indeed perhaps more outlandish design do just as well, and I wish they would 1 experimental car running outside the rules is amusing but a bit pointless for a "competition", where 55 other cars are within a defined sets of rules. They should build another 10 garages (which they are sounding like the might be, if they can fit them into the pitlane) define a total amount of energy for 24hrs, a safety cell and max set of dimensions and leave everything else free, and give it a EXP class to compete in.

If they are serious.
That sounds more like it, then we'd be able to see the merits or otherwise of lightweight and efficient design without it getting mixed up in the whole DeltaWing thing. Too many changes - to be sure a change works it need to be done in isolation (i.e. continuous improvement or Kaizen) not as part of a wholesale mess of changes (i.e. Kaikaku) where the effects of any individual change cannot be quantified.

Maybe DeltaWing IS the way to go with efficient design, but as we have NOTHING to compare it to (other than its performance to an arbitrary target) we just don't know. Let's have a few more designs, some real competition in a proper class, and find out for sure if this is a credible design or a marketing gimmick. Frankly, it's the only fair thing for the fantastic team behind the DeltaWing as they have not been given a fair crack of the whip otherwise.

robmlufc

5,227 posts

185 months

Monday 25th June 2012
quotequote all
Light weight car goes quick ish, what did this prove that Mr Chapman didn't show us years ago?

Build it to compete to a set of rules and then we can see how quick it is.

davepoth

29,395 posts

198 months

Monday 25th June 2012
quotequote all
VictorMeldrew said:
or ... in actuality it didn't finish, it went off after a nudge that didn't look that serious, and sustained terminal damage to a driveshaft (exposed by the design to impact damage maybe?) that such a featherweight crisp packet of a car shouldn't really have sustained.
the back was repaired out on the track sufficiently to get it back to the pits, it was the damage to the steering caused by hitting the barrier that finished the car off in the end. In any case the rear of the car was a fairly conventional design (indeed the CF tub was formerly an AMR-One) so it's likely any other LMP car subjected to a similar accident would have suffered similar rear damage.

Munter

31,319 posts

240 months

Monday 25th June 2012
quotequote all
davepoth said:
VictorMeldrew said:
or ... in actuality it didn't finish, it went off after a nudge that didn't look that serious, and sustained terminal damage to a driveshaft (exposed by the design to impact damage maybe?) that such a featherweight crisp packet of a car shouldn't really have sustained.
the back was repaired out on the track sufficiently to get it back to the pits, it was the damage to the steering caused by hitting the barrier that finished the car off in the end. In any case the rear of the car was a fairly conventional design (indeed the CF tub was formerly an AMR-One) so it's likely any other LMP car subjected to a similar accident would have suffered similar rear damage.
When he tries to drive it it rotates around the point under the center of the body. Almost pretty much under the driver. Shirly a normal 4 point design the car would have balanced on the "good" rear wheel (pushing the car when he tries to drive it), and the diagonal front. But it couldn't so it was resting on the floor. The same as if a traditional car had lost both wheels on one side. Unless the front wheels were pointed at 90 degrees to the desired direction of travel, I can't see why the car pivoted around a central point. Given a damaged drive shaft and steering as suggested.

davepoth

29,395 posts

198 months

Monday 25th June 2012
quotequote all
Munter said:
When he tries to drive it it rotates around the point under the center of the body. Almost pretty much under the driver. Shirly a normal 4 point design the car would have balanced on the "good" rear wheel (pushing the car when he tries to drive it), and the diagonal front. But it couldn't so it was resting on the floor. The same as if a traditional car had lost both wheels on one side. Unless the front wheels were pointed at 90 degrees to the desired direction of travel, I can't see why the car pivoted around a central point. Given a damaged drive shaft and steering as suggested.


the front suspension was utterly shagged and as a result the car would have been sat on the plank underneath, which is what the car would have been pivoting on. There wasn't a car in the race that could have recovered to the pits with that damage. It was an experimental car in its very first race. It could be that there is something to learn, but it doesn't make it a failure just because it broke when a car hit it.

robmlufc

5,227 posts

185 months

Monday 25th June 2012
quotequote all
davepoth said:
There wasn't a car in the race that could have recovered to the pits with that damage.



Regiment

2,799 posts

158 months

Monday 25th June 2012
quotequote all
davepoth said:


the front suspension was utterly shagged and as a result the car would have been sat on the plank underneath, which is what the car would have been pivoting on. There wasn't a car in the race that could have recovered to the pits with that damage. It was an experimental car in its very first race. It could be that there is something to learn, but it doesn't make it a failure just because it broke when a car hit it.
I suppose it depends on why it broke, was the car to fragile to race in a 24hour race with cars that are much bigger and much faster. A few of the LMP1 cars had coming togethers with the crash barriers and the tire walls and were able to limp home quite happily to be repaired.