|
minghis
1,279 posts
120 months
|
It might not be his fault that he's so slow of course.... I've said here before that Alonso is something special in a car that is possibly not as good as it should be.
Remember 2009/10 - Luca Bodoer had done more time in the car than the race drivers (as tester) but couldn't get a decent result in a race - and was replaced by the hugely experienced (and obviously very skilled at driving F1 cars) Fisichella who also couldn't get the car to a decent result in a race.
|
|
|
Ja5on
4 posts
39 months
|
think massa has had his time. Ferrari need to get in some new blood, someone that can learn from Alonso.
Grosjean has been a big surprise this year, and he'll only get better with having Kimi in the squad. Di resta, perez would learn a huge amount from alonso
|
|
|
Redlake27
1,706 posts
113 months
|
oyster said: All seems such a sad way for a career to go.
I was in Singapore in 2008 when he smashed Hamilton's pole time under intense pressure in the last few seconds of qualifying. One of the best pole laps I've ever seen.
I'm not convinced the Hungary accident has taken anything out of him. I think his confidence and self-belief has been taken away by Alonso and the way that Ferrari put all their eggs in Alonso's basket. I don't think Ferrari have put all their eggs in the Alonso basket. They have supported Massa, even when he has underperformed for most of the the last two seasons. He is a mystery to me. At Sauber he looked unruly. But at Ferrari in 2006-8 he was a surprise. But I now wonder if the car was even better than it looked, and whether Kimi wasn't bothered and Schuey was past his prime even then. I wonder if the ban on traction control hit him more than most drivers? His performance at Silverstone in 2008 was one of the worst I've seen by any professional racing driver, let alone a top F1 driver. Yet on other days, he was sublime. In some ways I'm glad he didn't win the F1 world championship. There's always a lot of debate on here whether the likes of Hill and Jacques Villeneuve made deserving champions, but that debate would pale into insignificance if Massa was on the list. Despite his highs, he has had far greater troughs of performance than most topline F1 drivers and seeing his name on a WDC list would look a bit incongruous.
|
|
|
dom180
1,180 posts
133 months
|
Redlake27 said: oyster said: All seems such a sad way for a career to go.
I was in Singapore in 2008 when he smashed Hamilton's pole time under intense pressure in the last few seconds of qualifying. One of the best pole laps I've ever seen.
I'm not convinced the Hungary accident has taken anything out of him. I think his confidence and self-belief has been taken away by Alonso and the way that Ferrari put all their eggs in Alonso's basket. I don't think Ferrari have put all their eggs in the Alonso basket. They have supported Massa, even when he has underperformed for most of the the last two seasons. He is a mystery to me. At Sauber he looked unruly. But at Ferrari in 2006-8 he was a surprise. But I now wonder if the car was even better than it looked, and whether Kimi wasn't bothered and Schuey was past his prime even then. I wonder if the ban on traction control hit him more than most drivers? His performance at Silverstone in 2008 was one of the worst I've seen by any professional racing driver, let alone a top F1 driver. Yet on other days, he was sublime. In some ways I'm glad he didn't win the F1 world championship. There's always a lot of debate on here whether the likes of Hill and Jacques Villeneuve made deserving champions, but that debate would pale into insignificance if Massa was on the list. Despite his highs, he has had far greater troughs of performance than most topline F1 drivers and seeing his name on a WDC list would look a bit incongruous. They've supported him but also made it pretty clear he has to move over for Alonso so not really good for Massa's motivation, other than cashing the cheques.... I don't think he was overrated before - he drove really well at Ferrari. Maybe his style was refined against Schumacher who is also struggling with these tires - not able to brake heavily into the apex compared to before which was where he gained a lot of his speed. Also Alonso is an extremely flexible driver in terms of improvisation and the current car is probably not very good. In reality most drivers aren't that adaptable wrt driving style/cars/tires and Alonso is probably one of the best in that regard: Kimi struggled with the 2008 Ferrari, Schumacher/Massa with the current tires, Jenson has a very narrow operating window.... Lewis might or might not have tire wear issues depending on circuit/temperature.... Both Mclaren drivers were inconsistent last year.... As per previous comments, Badoer and Fisi struggled with the 2009 Ferrari.... (Silverstone was a wrong engine/throttle mapping....)
|
|
|
Redlake27
1,706 posts
113 months
|
dom180 said: They've supported him but also made it pretty clear he has to move over for Alonso so not really good for Massa's motivation, I think they've only asked him to move over once (when they were on the same lap, that is). One could argue that if Ferrari had asked Massa to move over in Australia and Malaysia earlier in the year when he was blocking Alonso, then Ferrari would've won the 2010 title.
|
Advertisement
|
|
|
oyster
5,203 posts
117 months
|
Redlake27 said: dom180 said: They've supported him but also made it pretty clear he has to move over for Alonso so not really good for Massa's motivation, I think they've only asked him to move over once (when they were on the same lap, that is). One could argue that if Ferrari had asked Massa to move over in Australia and Malaysia earlier in the year when he was blocking Alonso, then Ferrari would've won the 2010 title. There's being 'asked' to move over and being expected to move over. And ever since Alonso joined, it has been the latter for Massa. Do you remember how Alonso reacted to being held up by Massa in Australia and Malaysia in 2010? And do you remember how Ferrari backed Massa up in those situations?
|
|
|
Gaz.
47,131 posts
120 months
|
oyster said: Redlake27 said: dom180 said: They've supported him but also made it pretty clear he has to move over for Alonso so not really good for Massa's motivation, I think they've only asked him to move over once (when they were on the same lap, that is). One could argue that if Ferrari had asked Massa to move over in Australia and Malaysia earlier in the year when he was blocking Alonso, then Ferrari would've won the 2010 title. There's being 'asked' to move over and being expected to move over. And ever since Alonso joined, it has been the latter for Massa. Do you remember how Alonso reacted to being held up by Massa in Australia and Malaysia in 2010? And do you remember how Ferrari backed Massa up in those situations? They also swapped positions in Australia 2011 to get Alonso past Button when Button overshot the chicane and hand to give the place back to Massa. Would they have done so had the Ferrari drivers been the other way around before Button's excursion?
|
|
|
Redlake27
1,706 posts
113 months
|
Gaz. said: Would they have done so had the Ferrari drivers been the other way around before Button's excursion? Probably. In 2008, they asked Kimi to move over for Massa. If Massa was their best bet for a victory, the strategy calls would favour him.
|
|
|
Rude-boy
15,509 posts
102 months
|
housen said: toppstuff said: Alguisari is unemployed at the moment. He could pedal along well as a number 2. he is rubbish Behave Helmut. He might not be at the level of some as yet but is far better than many think based on the ramblings of Mr Marko. If he were that bad why did Helmet feel the need to trash him so publicly after releaseing him from his contract? 10's of ex Red Bull drivers have been booted out with little or no comment. That Marko chose to single him out, even above Buemi (SP?) suggests that whilst he doesn't want him in his team he doesn't want him in any F1 team - I wonder why that might be...
|
|
|
oyster
5,203 posts
117 months
|
Redlake27 said: Gaz. said: Would they have done so had the Ferrari drivers been the other way around before Button's excursion? Probably. In 2008, they asked Kimi to move over for Massa. If Massa was their best bet for a victory, the strategy calls would favour him. That was near the end of the season though. In fact that's what angered so many people with Germany 2010, that it happened just over halfway through the season.
|
|
|
McHaggis
7,667 posts
24 months
|
Rude-boy said: That Marko chose to single him out, even above Buemi (SP?) suggests that whilst he doesn't want him in his team he doesn't want him in any F1 team - I wonder why that might be... What story are we missing? I agree it looked very pointed...
|
|
|
Rude-boy
15,509 posts
102 months
|
McHaggis said: Rude-boy said: That Marko chose to single him out, even above Buemi (SP?) suggests that whilst he doesn't want him in his team he doesn't want him in any F1 team - I wonder why that might be... What story are we missing? I agree it looked very pointed... I must get on with some work but the basics are that Red Bull want to replace Webber but do they really want another European in the other car or someone from the other half of the World? If that is the case then best get their chosen man into a ¼ decent car and inside the fold before someone else sees how they can haul a truck round rather well at the back of the pack and starts sniffing for a look at their contract. So Buemi was going to get his marching orders anyway but what about JA? Well we aren’t quite sure about him but we have this French chap who has done rather well in the sub F1 categories and have a contract with him that we will get him an F1 drive or testing for 2012. So let us drop JA as well but to make sure that JA doesn’t get a look in elsewhere we will try to trash him and his name as much as we dare. That way we wont be eating humble pie when JA clicks fully in a good car.
|
|
|
ajprice
7,218 posts
65 months
|
I thought I saw this as Alonso crossed the line yesterday, I just looked up the results and confirmed it... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula......Alonso lapped Massa yesterday, the only other cars that finished the race 1 lap behind were the HRT/Hispanias. Are they still going to 'protect' him?
|
|
|
hotmelt
842 posts
42 months
|
Hasnt Massa crashed yesterday? Was not far of Alonso´s pace whole weekend too.
|
|
|
scrwright
780 posts
59 months
|
about .7 sec off Alonso, this season that is alot of places
|
|
|
TonyHetherington
30,875 posts
119 months
|
ajprice said: I thought I saw this as Alonso crossed the line yesterday, I just looked up the results and confirmed it... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula......Alonso lapped Massa yesterday, the only other cars that finished the race 1 lap behind were the HRT/Hispanias. Are they still going to 'protect' him? Hamilton did that to Button 2 weeks ago. It's not uncommon if someone has a bad race that it can happen between team mates
|
|
|
Fire99
8,083 posts
98 months
|
hotmelt said: Hasnt Massa crashed yesterday? Was not far of Alonso´s pace whole weekend too. I don't think many are denying Massa has raw pace. His issue is that it seems he is unable to get results. Alonso is winning and getting 100% out of the car, Massa seems victim of too many 'unfortunate' situations.
|
|
|
Mermaid
12,487 posts
40 months
|
Fire99 said: hotmelt said: Hasnt Massa crashed yesterday? Was not far of Alonso´s pace whole weekend too. I don't think many are denying Massa has raw pace. His issue is that it seems he is unable to get results. Alonso is winning and getting 100% out of the car, Massa seems victim of too many 'unfortunate' situations. Alonso =mature driver Massa = needs to be babied by Smedley.
|
|
|
oyster
5,203 posts
117 months
|
Mermaid said: Fire99 said: hotmelt said: Hasnt Massa crashed yesterday? Was not far of Alonso´s pace whole weekend too. I don't think many are denying Massa has raw pace. His issue is that it seems he is unable to get results. Alonso is winning and getting 100% out of the car, Massa seems victim of too many 'unfortunate' situations. Alonso =mature driver Massa = needs to be babied by Smedley. Really? He is an awesome driver, but Alonso is well known for his toy-throwing moments.
|
|
|
Bedazzled
4,042 posts
90 months
|
ajprice said: I thought I saw this as Alonso crossed the line yesterday, I just looked up the results and confirmed it... http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula......Alonso lapped Massa yesterday, the only other cars that finished the race 1 lap behind were the HRT/Hispanias. Are they still going to 'protect' him? Jeez... Button and Massa's fastest laps were both slower than Petrov in the Caterham?!
|
|
