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oyster

6,716 posts

135 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Derek Smith said:
DanDC5 said:
Derek Smith said:
Perhaps without Ecclestone going towards money like a rat on a rocket down a drain there would not have been a GP in Bahrain to object to. It might have been replaced by one in a country where the populace cared about F1.
If the race hadn't gone ahead Bahrain would have to pay Bernie more money than just the race fee. Financially it was in his interest for the race to be cancelled.
You miss my point. Had it not been for Eccclestone chasing after those venues willing to pay the tremendous amount he charges and those who want to use F1 to show how important the country has become, we might get races in those countries where there is support from local fans.

Further, if Ecclestone had cancelled the race then he would not, in my understanding of the financial agreements, not have received as much money. So it was in Ecclestone's interest that the race went ahead.
So which races are you referring to that have gone, when the local support was big?

I can think only of France really (which may be back soon anyway).

Surely if the support was so great then that in itself could pay for the race to be held.

llewop

2,260 posts

98 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Eric Mc said:
Sorry for sounding depressing but I just do not like the direction F1 has moved over the past ten years.
Wiki on the 2002 World Championship:
Michael Schumacher finished first or second in every race except for the Malaysian Grand Prix, where he finished third, thus achieving a podium poistion in every race. He won a record 11 Grands Prix, surpassing the previous record of 9 wins, jointly held by himself (1995, 2000 and 2001) and Nigel Mansell (1992). He would also set the record for shortest time in which the World Drivers Championship had been clinched, securing the title with a win at the French Grand Prix, with 6 races to go in the season.

On that basis: I'll take F1 V.2012 thanks!

(I do realise you're refering to other issues, not least the TV coverage and Mr E's influence - but couldn't resist with the parallel discussion re MSc's grump about tyres!)

Gene Vincent

4,002 posts

45 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Eric Mc said:
What has any of that got to do with providing a form of motorsport that is afordable and enjoyable for all - especially for those countries that have nurtured motor sport in all its guises over 100 plus years?

As for safety, I always thought that was a governing body issue - not a commercial rights holder issue.

What we have at the moment is a governing body that has been almost completely sidelined from governing.
The money... follow the money.

The circuits washed their hands, the governing body didn't have the money, the media had it all, Bernie forced the change by having the money to do it.

Nurtured a sport that had become too fast for its own bounds and didn't want to change.

The real greed was the circuits, who took the gold and accepted death as an inevitable part of that bottom line. These were largely all European circuits.

In the early nineties the sport out grew its bounds again and we lost Senna, Ratzenberger and damaged severely a few others, this galvanised him again but on a different front.

If you want it like the old days, cheap and simple then fine, I don't, I quite like the idea of Schumacher having a fabulous career and coming back in 'old age' sufficiently undamaged to compete, not another Jim Clark or countless others who didn't get the chance.

As you say, the governing body is toothless in many respects, most importantly in the financial respect, if it had the purse it would be useless, Bernie is fabulously wealthy but in reality he is nothing more than a purse holder, looking to place the pennies in the right place and to be able to do so without bankrupting the sport.

Big changes = big money.

Eric Mc

77,742 posts

152 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Not really.

The problem is that the venues have to pay BE/CVC over £40 million for the right to host the event. Very few European venues can afford that type of fee - even if they are a complete sell-out. Other countries, especially developing countries, have governments that are willing to stump up Bernie's fee and they are prepared to pay this even if nobody turns up at the venue to watch. For them, the interests of their citizens and the proper priorities for spending taxes are completely outweighed by a desire for international prestige. After a vast and glamourous international airport, a vast and glamourous F1 venue is usually next on the agenda.

It has become an impossible situation for the European circuits to match and sooner or later F1 wioll become a predominantly Asian/Middle Eastern activity.

Eric Mc

77,742 posts

152 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
llewop said:
Eric Mc said:
Sorry for sounding depressing but I just do not like the direction F1 has moved over the past ten years.
Wiki on the 2002 World Championship:
Michael Schumacher finished first or second in every race except for the Malaysian Grand Prix, where he finished third, thus achieving a podium poistion in every race. He won a record 11 Grands Prix, surpassing the previous record of 9 wins, jointly held by himself (1995, 2000 and 2001) and Nigel Mansell (1992). He would also set the record for shortest time in which the World Drivers Championship had been clinched, securing the title with a win at the French Grand Prix, with 6 races to go in the season.

On that basis: I'll take F1 V.2012 thanks!

(I do realise you're refering to other issues, not least the TV coverage and Mr E's influence - but couldn't resist with the parallel discussion re MSc's grump about tyres!)
I was not referring to events on track at all. Atr the moment the regs are giving us better racing than we had a few years ago (no complaints there). What I am concerned about is the long term commercial sustainability of the sport and how it can survive without its European heart being ripped out in the chase for bigger and more glamourous but soulless venues in developing countries.
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Gene Vincent

4,002 posts

45 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Eric Mc said:
What I am concerned about is the long term commercial sustainability of the sport and how it can survive without its European heart being ripped out in the chase for bigger and more glamoures venues in developing countries.
4 locations outside Europe, 9 inside Europe and then 7 outside again. F1 2012.

1 location outside Europe, 9 inside Europe and then 3 outside again. F1 1970.

Errrrrrmmmmm, care to explain?

Eric Mc

77,742 posts

152 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
OK, I'll, rephrase.

I would include North and South America as "traditional" venues for F1 as they have both contributed to the history of the sport and its drivers, especially South America.

The non-European races in 1970 would have been mainly American (North South and Mid) and South Africa.

The non-European rounds today are in "new" venues with no history and no drivers of note. Even Japan, which many would say deserves a place in the championship circuit

a) because it has a good circuit

and

b) has a very important motor industry

Has contributed very little in the form of decent drivers and if it wasn't for Honda, not even much from a technical side.

llewop

2,260 posts

98 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Eric Mc said:
What I am concerned about is the long term commercial sustainability of the sport and how it can survive without its European heart being ripped out in the chase for bigger and more glamourous but soulless venues in developing countries.
I would share that concern - but then it's equally (or even more pronounced) in other sports. I cannot fathom how the business model of football is sustainable; there is a headlong rush across sports to chase the money, chase the new markets etc etc. All sports (and sports coverage - which to some degree is probably linked by £$€) have changed dramatically over the last few decades, F1 is not really different to any of the others.

With F1, to me, one of Bernie's greatest crimes is chasing the money of the new world to set up GPs in the far east etc and at the time telling the world 'it's the future'... then several years later with empty grandstands but the venue's being propped up by the local governments, he spins it round that 'they need to react to the market - night races!' - so that the race is on at a 1/2 way decent time for....Europe!

DanDC5

9,067 posts

54 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Eric Mc said:
OK, I'll, rephrase.

I would include North and South America as "traditional" venues for F1 as they have both contributed to the history of the sport and its drivers, especially South America.

The non-European races in 1970 would have been mainly American (North South and Mid) and South Africa.

The non-European rounds today are in "new" venues with no history and no drivers of note. Even Japan, which many would say deserves a place in the championship circuit

a) because it has a good circuit

and

b) has a very important motor industry

Has contributed very little in the form of decent drivers and if it wasn't for Honda, not even much from a technical side.
See I wouldn't class North America as a traditional F1 venue, it had it's good years yes but the popularity of F1 has never matched any of the yanks home grown motorsport, particularly NASCAR.

South America is very different imo, I think that does hold more of a tradition to the F1 calender, but that is currently taken care of for the last 30-40 years by Brazil and Argentina (which if rumours are to be believed is also due back on the calender).

I honestly don't see the problem with F1 going to new circuits as long as they are good to drive on and provide good racing (sadly that has lacked slightly). But to gain 'heritage' and a history in F1 it needs to be new at some point. There was a time when Suzuka was seen as a new circuit on the calender. If F1 is described as a World Championship then it should go around the world. Yes there should always be more races in Europe as that's where most of the teams/drivers are from. But there's racing talent outside of Europe and to get that interest F1 needs to go to new countries.

Eric Mc

77,742 posts

152 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Don't forget Mexico, which had plenty of GP races.

DanDC5

9,067 posts

54 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Did forget that to be honest. I think Mexico would be more relevant for F1 than going back to Argentina at the moment to be honest with Perez on the grid now, especially if/when he goes to Ferrari.

Gene Vincent

4,002 posts

45 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Eric Mc said:
Don't forget Mexico, which had plenty of GP races.
Well, they've 40 years... where are the teams from the Americas?

Then look at the emerging areas and see that in a few short years teams have started to appear...

I'd say the emerging areas are promoting F1 better than the Americas ever did, apart from drivers and that will change soon enough.

StevieBee

4,769 posts

142 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Eric Mc said:
Not really.

The problem is that the venues have to pay BE/CVC over £40 million
I believe that the amount varies considerably. Silverstone pays something like $17m. Singapore is the highest fee at around $70m

This too is not simply a rights fee but the cost of providing a product (the provision of a Formula 1 race weekend and all that entails) - which will include a rather handsome margin.

Eric Mc

77,742 posts

152 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Perhaps. The US has its own home grown motor sport and has never truly taken to Grand Prix racing.
But it certainly has a long history of motor sport and car manufacturing and engineeruing and technology.

I;m not sure how Bahrain, Abu Dhabi ir even Singapore fit into that scenario. China has apsirations as does India but I'm not altogether sure either of these countries will really ever become the technical inovators the west became.

To me F1 and motor sport in general is a Western activity and the only non-Western country that has truly embraced it is Japan.

IainT

9,238 posts

125 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Eric Mc said:
To me F1 and motor sport in general is a Western activity and the only non-Western country that has truly embraced it is Japan.
If you look at the common denominator to all those that can afford those types of leisure activities.

Moley RUFC

2,573 posts

76 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Eric Mc said:
My prediction - at the end of this season Brundle will retire from Sky TV.
Utter tosh

Chrisgr31

8,956 posts

142 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
I am minded towards the doomsayers. At some point F1 will implode, and someone (some people) somewhere will lose a lot of money.

The reason is that the Bernie model only works whilst he can find circuits (currently in the Middle and Far East) who are prepared to pay handsomely for the priveledge. At some point governments will decide that its not worth supporting a Grand Prix because they have achieved a status beyond that and they no longer need F1.

We already know that because circuits only receive the income from ticket sales and therefore the nun-supported races in Europe are struggling. When the days come that Governments no longer support races the fees paid by the circuiots to stage a race will fall, hence a loss of income to F1, and those that have invested in it. With a projected sale later this year people could be borrowing to invest in it and a loss of income will hit them hard.

Bernie has done well at making huge sums of money for himself and others from F1, but as RBS and HBOS discovered at some point the gravytrain stops and the buffers are hit.

Eric Mc

77,742 posts

152 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Moley RUFC said:
Eric Mc said:
My prediction - at the end of this season Brundle will retire from Sky TV.
Utter tosh
We shall see.

rubystone

8,588 posts

146 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
Eric Mc said:
We shall see.
Eric, why do you think he will retire?

ETA, if he does, he will have nowhere to go - the Beeb will pull out of F1 completely at the end of this season.

Eric Mc

77,742 posts

152 months

[news] 
Tuesday 24th April 2012 quote quote all
It's a pure feeling - nothing more.

I just don't think he is enjoying it as much as he did last year.

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