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Bedazzled

7,968 posts

107 months

[news] 
Friday 18th May 2012 quote quote all
I think people are getting their wires crossed when they look back at the noughties, in fact there were multiple factors responsible for the lack of overtaking.

The main culprits were the ever-increasing aero making it hard to follow the car in front, refuelling strategies resulting in overtaking in the pits, unlimited testing favouring the big teams, traction control and ABS brakes reducing driver input, FIA bias toward Ferrari, etc... the tyres were never the problem.

Then the cars got too fast, and the FIA faced a choice; either limit aero grip or mechanical grip. They made fundamentally the wrong choice (imo) and it went hand-in-hand with the subsequent Tilke track designs.

Proper wheel-to-wheel racing only has any value if the guy in front is able to defend. What we've got now isn't overtaking, it's cars shuffling themselves into order according to how well they manage their tyres.

Scuffers

14,273 posts

160 months

[news] 
Friday 18th May 2012 quote quote all
Bedazzled said:
I think people are getting their wires crossed when they look back at the noughties, in fact there were multiple factors responsible for the lack of overtaking.

The main culprits were the ever-increasing aero making it hard to follow the car in front, refuelling strategies resulting in overtaking in the pits, unlimited testing favouring the big teams, traction control and ABS brakes reducing driver input, FIA bias toward Ferrari, etc... the tyres were never the problem.

Then the cars got too fast, and the FIA faced a choice; either limit aero grip or mechanical grip. They made fundamentally the wrong choice (imo) and it went hand-in-hand with the subsequent Tilke track designs.

Proper wheel-to-wheel racing only has any value if the guy in front is able to defend. What we've got now isn't overtaking, it's cars shuffling themselves into order according to how well they manage their tyres.
Well said.

SRT77

528 posts

104 months

[news] 
Friday 18th May 2012 quote quote all
Paul Hembrey seems intent on saying the same thing over and over again. In time the teams will get to understand the tyres - well we've had winter testing & five races and still no ones's got a clue. Maybe it'll be the last race of the season when it all comes together only for the compounds to change yet again next year.
He also said -
"and I think the vast majority of fans will be pleased to see exciting races" Yes sod the switching on, finding the sweet spot, understanding, managing etc etc, because that is definitely not exciting.

And - " The vast majority of feedback we get is that people are enjoying the races " . I guess I'm in the minority then which actually seems to be bigger than the majority if that makes sense.

Eric Mc

77,123 posts

151 months

[news] 
Friday 18th May 2012 quote quote all
SRT77 said:
Maybe it'll be the last race of the season when it all comes together only for the compounds to change yet again next year.
I do hope so.

rdjohn

Original Poster:

1,229 posts

81 months

[news] 
Friday 18th May 2012 quote quote all
Bedazzled said:
I think people are getting their wires crossed when they look back at the noughties, in fact there were multiple factors responsible for the lack of overtaking.

The main culprits were the ever-increasing aero making it hard to follow the car in front, refuelling strategies resulting in overtaking in the pits, unlimited testing favouring the big teams, traction control and ABS brakes reducing driver input, FIA bias toward Ferrari, etc... the tyres were never the problem.

Then the cars got too fast, and the FIA faced a choice; either limit aero grip or mechanical grip. They made fundamentally the wrong choice (imo) and it went hand-in-hand with the subsequent Tilke track designs.

Proper wheel-to-wheel racing only has any value if the guy in front is able to defend. What we've got now isn't overtaking, it's cars shuffling themselves into order according to how well they manage their tyres.
Agreed

How does racing take place in all sub-F1 open-wheel series?

1. There is untimed practice to set up the car.
2. Drivers qualify for their place on the grid – fastest first; slowest at the back

With this scenario, the scope for overtaking should be difficult and limited; fans for decades have understood this criterion.

Winners collect points and the one with the greatest number of points wins the championship. Talent shows through in Gp2, the best get to play in F1. They get the most technically complex equipment, and then all the sensible rules are thrown out of the window.

Why does F1 have to break free from these very simple principles? Cos there is lots of money in it and huge vested interests.

Is it possible to introduce technical regulations that limit big budgets and aero effects? Yes, but team principals and technical directors don’t like it, so they ask for Mickey Mouse tyres instead and the consequence of that is a lottery of results.

Ironically, I do think that the cream of drivers – dare I suggest Alonso and Hamilton – will rise to the top over 20 throws of the dice, but individually Q3s and the races are somewhat farcical.

For the first time ever, rather than endure another throw of the dice at Monaco, I have decided to go out and have some fun and do a track day at Magny Cours, In any event, I will probably come home and find that the Stewards have penalised everyone, because there was so much overtaking going on.

Or, maybe Jackie Stewart is right, these tyres could be just too dangerous on such a restricted track.

Look out for marbles in the tunnel Felipe!
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Eric Mc

77,123 posts

151 months

[news] 
Friday 18th May 2012 quote quote all
F1 disconected f4rom mainstream motor sport quite a while ago.

entropy

2,374 posts

89 months

[news] 
Saturday 19th May 2012 quote quote all
This: http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/22058/775...

"Within this ambiguity it becomes more difficult than ever to assess the performances of the drivers. Maldonado drove a perfectly controlled race, delicately balancing the requirements of looking after the Williams' rear tyres while sustaining big pressure from Alonso. It was a thinking drive which combined with his qualifying speed became the winning combination. But, like Nico Rosberg's China win, or Jenson Button's in Australia, it was a drive that was all about measuring out the energy of the tyres in the fastest, most efficient way. The sustained aggression and relentlessness, maintaining flat-out on-the-limit driving for lap after lap, a skill that so few can master, is currently an obsolete requirement.

Measured by the new, Pirelli-dominated, set of requirements Maldonado is a top driver. The worrying thing is that he may be equal first with the 23 others"


Bedazzled

7,968 posts

107 months

[news] 
Saturday 19th May 2012 quote quote all
Sky said:
...the limit is no longer wear, but heat durability. In essence the tyre becomes saturated with the energy being fed through it and overheats into uselessness.
That says it all, push for a couple of laps and the heat destroys the tyres, cruising at a constant 80% and undercutting the pit-stops is now the only way to win. How is that 'good racing'? irked

Scuffers

14,273 posts

160 months

[news] 
Saturday 19th May 2012 quote quote all
Bedazzled said:
Sky said:
...the limit is no longer wear, but heat durability. In essence the tyre becomes saturated with the energy being fed through it and overheats into uselessness.
That says it all, push for a couple of laps and the heat destroys the tyres, cruising at a constant 80% and undercutting the pit-stops is now the only way to win. How is that 'good racing'? irked
exactly...

Racing is not longer about who is the fastest driver...

Munter

25,284 posts

127 months

[news] 
Sunday 20th May 2012 quote quote all
Scuffers said:
exactly...

Racing is not longer about who is the fastest driver...
It never was.

Scuffers

14,273 posts

160 months

[news] 
Sunday 20th May 2012 quote quote all
Munter said:
Scuffers said:
exactly...

Racing is not longer about who is the fastest driver...
It never was.

hairykrishna

9,802 posts

89 months

[news] 
Sunday 20th May 2012 quote quote all
Define 'fastest' in this context. It's still about who's fastest over the full race distance because the person who crosses the line first still wins.

Scuffers

14,273 posts

160 months

[news] 
Sunday 20th May 2012 quote quote all
hairykrishna said:
Define 'fastest' in this context. It's still about who's fastest over the full race distance because the person who crosses the line first still wins.
I would argue it's as much now about who luck's into the right setup for the day (or hour) of the race where their tyres don't fall apart as fast as others around them.

For example, how can we have Button, world champion, renowned for being mr nice to tyres yet he's all at sea....

zac510

5,493 posts

92 months

[news] 
Sunday 20th May 2012 quote quote all
Next week's winner will be withheld until Scuffers the driver his approval on whether the driver was racy enough. We'll delay the podium ceremony until he gives it the thumbs up.

Munter

25,284 posts

127 months

[news] 
Sunday 20th May 2012 quote quote all
Scuffers said:
Munter said:
Scuffers said:
exactly...

Racing is not longer about who is the fastest driver...
It never was.
dhead photo
Would one be suggesting that the car has no influence on racing?

It's never about the fastest driver. Put the fastest F1 driver in a HRT and will he win? I doubt it.

It's about the best car/driver/team combination. Being the fastest driver does not mean you win.

Scuffers

14,273 posts

160 months

[news] 
Sunday 20th May 2012 quote quote all
zac510 said:
Next week's winner will be withheld until Scuffers the driver his approval on whether the driver was racy enough. We'll delay the podium ceremony until he gives it the thumbs up.
I would suggest this sums it up better...



(Shamelessly stolen from Here)

zac510

5,493 posts

92 months

[news] 
Sunday 20th May 2012 quote quote all
Scuffers, what did you make of my observation earlier in the thread that the top 5 drivers in the WDC from last year are still in the top 6 of this year's WDC? Raikkonen being the interloper.

My point is that it's not a gamble, or random; the top drivers are still at the top.

Scuffers

14,273 posts

160 months

[news] 
Sunday 20th May 2012 quote quote all
zac510 said:
Scuffers, what did you make of my observation earlier in the thread that the top 5 drivers in the WDC from last year are still in the top 6 of this year's WDC? Raikkonen being the interloper.

My point is that it's not a gamble, or random; the top drivers are still at the top.
two answers:

1) the 'top' drivers are all in 'top' cars this year, it would be odd in this situation for them not all to be at the front half (although in the first 5 races one or two have had some howlers)

2) history tell us that given a set format and known situations, the best driver/car combination will usually be dominant, the very fact this is not happening this year kind of gives it away.

Now, yes, you could say what we now has is better than the predictable 3rd championship for Vettel or the like, but how is this any different from rolling a dice?

llewop

2,236 posts

97 months

[news] 
Monday 21st May 2012 quote quote all
Scuffers said:
Now, yes, you could say what we now has is better than the predictable 3rd championship for Vettel or the like, but how is this any different from rolling a dice?
If it were dice rolling - Caterham, HRT and Marussia would have points by now.

A single team dominating is boring - Red Bull had mastered the EBD, so great to get rid of it. Some uncertainties and challenges for the engineers and drivers to get their heads round is a good thing, F1 is not supposed to be easy!

It would be tempting to suggest that, perhaps, if you can't accept that F1 is the way it is now - then you find something else to watch and comment on.

Scuffers

14,273 posts

160 months

[news] 
Monday 21st May 2012 quote quote all
llewop said:
Scuffers said:
Now, yes, you could say what we now has is better than the predictable 3rd championship for Vettel or the like, but how is this any different from rolling a dice?
If it were dice rolling - Caterham, HRT and Marussia would have points by now.

A single team dominating is boring - Red Bull had mastered the EBD, so great to get rid of it. Some uncertainties and challenges for the engineers and drivers to get their heads round is a good thing, F1 is not supposed to be easy!

It would be tempting to suggest that, perhaps, if you can't accept that F1 is the way it is now - then you find something else to watch and comment on.
that's just laughable though, the bottom 3 teams are no where near capable of taking a win unless the rest of the field collectively take themselves out.

realistically, we are looking at the top 6 teams (and a dice has 6 sides does it not?)

Also, if you think EBD is over, think again.

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