Pirelli tyres

[llewop]

AlpineWhite said:

The total non-spectacle that qualifying has become saddens me a bit. It's been decent enough over the last few years and I think it could be fixed by separate qualifying and race tyre allocations.

The non-running in Q3 is a problem - a thought I had was that since they are doing it to save tyres, then if they don't run (without good reason) then they lose a set. But someone would moan that meant it would be even more difficult in the race!

[llewop]

Bedazzled said:

Why can't they just give them an extra set of tyres for Q3?

Maybe because it's not in the rules... but rules could be changed of course, if the FIA etc decide they need changing.

It's not just F1 that has fun with their tyres - anyone else see the end of the WTCC yesterday? I lost count how many front left tyres blew! Rob Huff was lucky that his was the last of the Chevrolets to have his go 'pop' so gained ground on Muller and even got on the podium.

[hairykrishna]

Eric Mc said:

I see we've run out of valid points to make no so starting to throw virtual rocks. Time for me to withdraw from this particular debate then.

I hope you enjoy the rest of the season, especially when it becomes more predictable and boring - which is obviously what you prefer your F1 to be.

So long.

Come on people aren't saying that they want it predictable. That's what you decided people want. The worry people have is that the random element has gone too far and has rendered both driver and team skill far less important than it should be. If we poured sugar into the tanks of two thirds of the field at random it'd shake the results up and make it less predictable but it wouldn't be any fun.

Personally I'm not convinced either way yet - a few more races will make it apparent I think.

[Megaflow]

Scuffers said:

hairykrishna said:

I don't really want to whinge about this season but I can't get away from the feeling it's bit of lottery regardless of how exciting it can be. A good yardstick will be if Maldonado wins another race or even looks like he might.

Exactly.

How does that make it a lottery? This is a team that looked quick throughout winter testing and the races to date, has also produces some of the most technically advanced and fastest F1 cars ever conceived and Maldonado is GP2 champion.

Yep, complete lottery...

Edited by Megaflow on Monday 21st May 22:05

[entropy]

Megaflow said:

How does that make it a lottery? This is a team that looked quick throughout winter testing and the races to date, has also produces some of the most technically advanced and fastest F1 cars ever conceived and Maldonado is GP2 champion.

Yep, complete lottery...

Edited by Megaflow on Monday 21st May 22:05

Generally about a second off the pace and then suddenly becomes a front runner overnight on a track that's one of the most significant test of a car's aero.

Sorry, but its blatantly down to the shoddy tyres.

[Richard-G]

entropy said:

Generally about a second off the pace and then suddenly becomes a front runner overnight on a track that's one of the most significant test of a car's aero.

Sorry, but its blatantly down to the shoddy tyres.

Either I'm due a whoosh parrot or you didn't see his pole/2nd place lap in qually.

The Williams Is a good car and they had the most professional approach to mugelo testing. They fully deserved the win.

[Scuffers]

Richard-G said:

Either I'm due a whoosh parrot or you didn't see his pole/2nd place lap in qually.

The Williams Is a good car and they had the most professional approach to mugelo testing. They fully deserved the win.

the former...

that session, several did not bother setting a lap, and in reality, those that did were trounced by Hamilton's lap (some half a second+ faster).

[Megaflow]

First race back after the first in season test in years, it could be Williams aero package and better understanding of how to operate the car has found them a second, unlikely I'll admit, but I can't understand why people are finding a Williams win so shocking.

Wins so far:
Button - McLaren
Alonso - Ferrari
Rosberg - Mercedes
Vettel - Red Bull
Maldonado - Williams

5 of the greatest teams ever in grand prix racing, and the only non world champion race winner is a proven winner and champion in single make catagories.

Careful what you wish for, if the FIA decide the Pirelli's are not what the fans want, the opposite end of the spectrum was the concrete Bridgestones and Michelens that lastet an entire race distance, plus refuelling, what a thrilling season that was...

[RYH64E]

Megaflow said:

First race back after the first in season test in years, it could be Williams aero package and better understanding of how to operate the car has found them a second, unlikely I'll admit, but I can't understand why people are finding a Williams win so shocking.

Wins so far:
Button - McLaren
Alonso - Ferrari
Rosberg - Mercedes
Vettel - Red Bull
Maldonado - Williams

5 of the greatest teams ever in grand prix racing, and the only non world champion race winner is a proven winner and champion in single make catagories.

Careful what you wish for, if the FIA decide the Pirelli's are not what the fans want, the opposite end of the spectrum was the concrete Bridgestones and Michelens that lastet an entire race distance, plus refuelling, what a thrilling season that was...

Sauber nearly got a win at Malaysia, I think that their 2nd place finish was their best ever result.

Mercedes win in China was their first in F1 for 57 years...

Williams previous win was in 2004, their last podium was in 2008.

[Megaflow]

RYH64E said:

Sauber nearly got a win at Malaysia, I think that their 2nd place finish was their best ever result.

Mercedes win in China was their first in F1 for 57 years...

Williams previous win was in 2004, their last podium was in 2008.

Sauver is the same team as BMW, with all the investment BMW made, and they won the Canadian GP in 2008.

Mercedes were previously Brawn which won the world championship in 2009.

And Williams now back with Renault have their first competitive engine in years.

[Richard-G]

RYH64E said:

Sauber nearly got a win at Malaysia, I think that their 2nd place finish was their best ever result.

Mercedes win in China was their first in F1 for 57 years...

Williams previous win was in 2004, their last podium was in 2008.

thats a VERY simplistic way of looking at it.

[RYH64E]

So all of these things happening in the first 5 races of the season isn't random?

Megaflow said:

Sauver is the same team as BMW, with all the investment BMW made, and they won the Canadian GP in 2008.

And have won nothing since, not even been close.

Megaflow said:

Mercedes were previously Brawn which won the world championship in 2009.

And won nothing since, not even close. Rosberg's results this year have been 12, 13, 1, 5, 7. That is the pattern you usually see when there has been one wet race in five and a good driver outperforms his car, or in this case lucks in to a tyre/circuit/temperature combination that happens to work.

Megaflow said:

And Williams now back with Renault have their first competitive engine in years.

Since the engine specifications were frozen a few years back they have had much less influence on results. Aero would appear to have been the dominant factor up until this season when tyres are the (inconsistent) key.

[Richard-G]

RYH64E said:

So all of these things happening in the first 5 races of the season isn't random?

Megaflow said:

Sauver is the same team as BMW, with all the investment BMW made, and they won the Canadian GP in 2008.

And have won nothing since, not even been close.

Megaflow said:

Mercedes were previously Brawn which won the world championship in 2009.

And won nothing since, not even close. Rosberg's results this year have been 12, 13, 1, 5, 7. That is the pattern you usually see when there has been one wet race in five and a good driver outperforms his car, or in this case lucks in to a tyre/circuit/temperature combination that happens to work.

Megaflow said:

And Williams now back with Renault have their first competitive engine in years.

Since the engine specifications were frozen a few years back they have had much less influence on results. Aero would appear to have been the dominant factor up until this season when tyres are the (inconsistent) key.

sauber didnt have a very good EBD in 2011

Mercedes EBD was way behind due to them not really adopting it until 2011

The cosworth engine was unable to run a consistant blown effect in 2011 which hurt williams. The renault engine (as discussed at length by newey who refused to go to merc power due to packaging) is tiny in comparison to the cosworth that williams had, this has allowed them to properly utilise their lowline gearbox, which is how they have managed to attach the flow of their exhaust so well to the rear of the bodywork, which in effect has given them great traction.

its not as simplistic as you saying "TYRES = LOTTERY"

[RYH64E]

Richard-G said:

its not as simplistic as you saying "TYRES = LOTTERY"

Even within a team there is no consistency, Button's was completely off the pace in Spain (qualified 10th finished 9th) whilst hamilton was flying ((qualified an easy first, started last and finished 8th).

If you look at Button's race finishes so far this season, (1, 14, 2, 18, 9) you have to conclude that there is somnething strange going on.

[zac510]

It's a common human trait that when people don't understand something they ascribe it to some greater force or something that can't be quantified. A good example of this is luck. It's impossible to quantify luck and it's open to tremendous variations in interpretation from each individual person.

In this case it's a gamble or lottery. "I can't understand it and it's out of my control therefore it must be a lottery or gamble."

In the past people ascribed the variations in weather to an invisible sky daddy.

[entropy]

Megaflow said:

Careful what you wish for, if the FIA decide the Pirelli's are not what the fans want, the opposite end of the spectrum was the concrete Bridgestones and Michelens that lastet an entire race distance, plus refuelling, what a thrilling season that was...

Last year's tyre construction was fine but they've messed with this year's for no good reason at all.

[Richard-G]

RYH64E said:

Richard-G said:

its not as simplistic as you saying "TYRES = LOTTERY"

Even within a team there is no consistency, Button's was completely off the pace in Spain (qualified 10th finished 9th) whilst hamilton was flying ((qualified an easy first, started last and finished 8th).

If you look at Button's race finishes so far this season, (1, 14, 2, 18, 9) you have to conclude that there is somnething strange going on.

that'll be due to the squidgy organic thing behind the wheel. Hamilton Made his tyres last, button didn’t. Button couldn’t make the inters last in Malaysia either. He did make them work for him in OZ and we all know the result.

with that logic you could argue a case FOR Felipe Massa 'he’s always behind Alonso due to the tyres'

De la rosa > Karthikeyan

etc etc etc

im not arguing that the season isn’t a lottery, but its not just down to the tyres. All of the cars are different in the following ways this year

hugely different behaviour under breaking and mid corner
hugely different under power
different rake settings along with the banning of the EBD has mean far less predictability of the rear downforce generated by the rear of the bodywork.
all this has meant suspension kinematics along with overall aero balance are far more important this year as you haven’t got a skirt of air acting as a skirt giving loads of predictable downforce. You can clearly see that the two main proponents of the ebd are struggling to understand and recoup the losses that the rule change caused, to the point where red bull, Neweys Red bull ran two different configs during china. THAT is not the action of a team that’s confidant. Mclaren are also looking adventurous as they have started to realise they don’t fully understand what the car is doing now the back of it isn’t jacked up 10% more than the front. That rake effect has a huge difference during the race with all that fuel weight.

trust me, it isn’t just 'tyres'.

[entropy]

Richard-G said:

that'll be due to the squidgy organic thing behind the wheel. Hamilton Made his tyres last, button didn’t. Button couldn’t make the inters last in Malaysia either. He did make them work for him in OZ and we all know the result.

with that logic you could argue a case FOR Felipe Massa 'he’s always behind Alonso due to the tyres'

De la rosa > Karthikeyan

etc etc etc

im not arguing that the season isn’t a lottery, but its not just down to the tyres. All of the cars are different in the following ways this year

hugely different behaviour under breaking and mid corner
hugely different under power
different rake settings along with the banning of the EBD has mean far less predictability of the rear downforce generated by the rear of the bodywork.
all this has meant suspension kinematics along with overall aero balance are far more important this year as you haven’t got a skirt of air acting as a skirt giving loads of predictable downforce. You can clearly see that the two main proponents of the ebd are struggling to understand and recoup the losses that the rule change caused, to the point where red bull, Neweys Red bull ran two different configs during china. THAT is not the action of a team that’s confidant. Mclaren are also looking adventurous as they have started to realise they don’t fully understand what the car is doing now the back of it isn’t jacked up 10% more than the front. That rake effect has a huge difference during the race with all that fuel weight.

trust me, it isn’t just 'tyres'.

Agree on all apart from the conclusion.

It is the tyres. Whatever flaws the cars have they've been grossly exaggerated by the tyres.

[Eric Mc]

Good.

[SRT77]

Eric Mc said:

Good.

Bad