Poll: Pirelli tyres
Total Members Polled: 337
Discussion
Bedazzled said:
I think Schumacher is right, I want to watch F1 cars being driven on the limit but what we are seeing now is more like endurance racing. Most 'overtaking' is just when two cars on different strategies happen to occupy the same piece of track.
Give them tyres that can take some abuse with a wider operating window, and we'll see some proper wheel-to-wheel racing. I'd rather that, with less overtakes, than the artificial pantomime we have now.
I agree. It's good for spectator sport seeing these cars being put into these situations, but we are not seeing the true potential of the drivers and cars. The race has become tyre managment not hardcore racing were the best driver or best driver/car package win. My only concearn is the main reason that tyres, Kers, DRS have been brought into it. If these systems were not in place, the car with the best development at the start of the season would potentially run away with it. Good for schumacher to make that comment, but i stopped watching F1 on Shueys 3rd F1 championship and got back intto F1 about 2 years after he retired, because it got boring and predictable. Ferrari had the best of everything and no one could catch up. I doubt very much if Schuey would have had so many championships under his belt if these systems were in place during his reign ??? It's definatly not boring now, But I do think they have gone too far the other way.Give them tyres that can take some abuse with a wider operating window, and we'll see some proper wheel-to-wheel racing. I'd rather that, with less overtakes, than the artificial pantomime we have now.
I'm with Schumacher on this. There are too many artificial 'aids' to improve the racing.
DRS, KERS and bizarre tyre characteristics. It's gone too far away from the core, which should be the best driver and the best car.
Competing tyre manufacturers should be in the mix. This will allow different teams to optimise their cars with different tyre manufacturers.
The tyres should be the best they can supply, to be durable and fast. The rules that govern the design of the cars, should have the building blocks to allow competitive racing.
DRS, KERS and bizarre tyre characteristics. It's gone too far away from the core, which should be the best driver and the best car.
Competing tyre manufacturers should be in the mix. This will allow different teams to optimise their cars with different tyre manufacturers.
The tyres should be the best they can supply, to be durable and fast. The rules that govern the design of the cars, should have the building blocks to allow competitive racing.
When Kimi can lose 10 places in two laps because his tyres have gone off then that is too artificial for me. It isn't meant to be a competition as to who can look after their tyres best, or whose car reacts best to a slight change in track temperature or track surface. Tyres should be a minor element of the race weekend, not the deciding factor in the race.
RYH64E said:
Tyres should be a minor element of the race weekend, not the deciding factor in the race.
Yep, must agree. Crazy to think that three or four tyre changes are required over such a race distance and the tyres don't allow the drives to push the cars to the limit and in turn the pitstops cause problems for the drivers which they have no control over i.e. LH's wh/nut problem for example. The tail wagging the dog springs to mind when it comes to tyres. RYH64E said:
Tyres should be a minor element of the race weekend, not the deciding factor in the race.
Ross brawn for one would disagree with you. Tyres are incredibly fundamental to a race car. Should Renault not have won double world championships then? Because they won because they made the most of their tyres.BUT I do agree that the punishment for slightly overstepping the life of the tyre is too much. They should be slightly more progressive in my opinion.
One one hand, I think the single manufacturer tyre supplier solution, where the FIA specs the exact characteristics required from the tyres, is dead right.
On the other hand, the spec is all wrong.
My somewhat radical solution attempts to solve not just the tyre conundrum, but also too much dependence on aero too. Given that the contact patch is the ultimate arbiter of how fast any car can lap, I'd spec the tyres in totally the opposite direction.
Rock hard bricks with limited adhesion, that could easily last several weekends would do for me. Crazy talk? Not if you make the damn things so hard that you can then remove all engine restrictions and allow teams to use any amount of horsepower they like......
1000Hp, sideways through corners, minuscule aero gains made irrelevant and it all coming down to how delicate the driver's right foot was, and how brave his left foot and hands are....
On the other hand, the spec is all wrong.
My somewhat radical solution attempts to solve not just the tyre conundrum, but also too much dependence on aero too. Given that the contact patch is the ultimate arbiter of how fast any car can lap, I'd spec the tyres in totally the opposite direction.
Rock hard bricks with limited adhesion, that could easily last several weekends would do for me. Crazy talk? Not if you make the damn things so hard that you can then remove all engine restrictions and allow teams to use any amount of horsepower they like......
1000Hp, sideways through corners, minuscule aero gains made irrelevant and it all coming down to how delicate the driver's right foot was, and how brave his left foot and hands are....
IMO the real elephant in the room is aero. With the lock on engines, KERS and effective lock on tyres since there's no competition there, the only real place the teams can differentiate is aero. I think they've got it the wrong way round in that respect.
Make engines and tyres free; no limit on engine configuration at all, be it 1.0 3cyl with massive turbo and hybrid, flywheels, screaming v10s, whatever. Limit the amount of fuel allowed per race, and drop it a little each season in the name of developing fuel economy technology.
Establish a maximum downforce level the cars are allowed to achieve at 200mph, and then the teams will have to concentrate on reducing turbulence to increase performance, which will make the races closer.
Make engines and tyres free; no limit on engine configuration at all, be it 1.0 3cyl with massive turbo and hybrid, flywheels, screaming v10s, whatever. Limit the amount of fuel allowed per race, and drop it a little each season in the name of developing fuel economy technology.
Establish a maximum downforce level the cars are allowed to achieve at 200mph, and then the teams will have to concentrate on reducing turbulence to increase performance, which will make the races closer.
I think we should bring back refuelling, and scrap the both tyre rule.
Then someone who wants to go flat out on less durable but quicker tyres with lower fuel loads, but would have to pit loads can do so.
And drivers who can maintain tyre quality can do long stints with high fuel loads.
Get rid of this DRS nonsense, KERS is alright, but make it more powerful.
Put more restrictions on shape/No planes on wings to reduce aero grip.
Put wider/larger tyres on front and rear to increase mech grip.
Outlaw Carbon brakes, steels mean you have to break earlier, meaning the braking zone is longer, therefore two cars coming into a corner spend more time side by side fighting for position.
Oh, and bring back qualifying tyres, so grid position at least means something!
Not likely to happen, but that's what I'd like to see.
Then someone who wants to go flat out on less durable but quicker tyres with lower fuel loads, but would have to pit loads can do so.
And drivers who can maintain tyre quality can do long stints with high fuel loads.
Get rid of this DRS nonsense, KERS is alright, but make it more powerful.
Put more restrictions on shape/No planes on wings to reduce aero grip.
Put wider/larger tyres on front and rear to increase mech grip.
Outlaw Carbon brakes, steels mean you have to break earlier, meaning the braking zone is longer, therefore two cars coming into a corner spend more time side by side fighting for position.
Oh, and bring back qualifying tyres, so grid position at least means something!
Not likely to happen, but that's what I'd like to see.
Making the engines open would be fantastic but isn't a realistic option due to the spiralling costs it would entail and the constant tweaking of the rules to make things relatively even. Would, say, Renault spend 10's of millions bringing their twin turbo V6 up to speed if Mercedes are running a single turbo V10 that is making 100 more Hp than the V6 or are they more likely to say 'we're not spending that, limit the mercedes engine in some way or we're off!' leaving the sport with not enough engines to go round?
I would love to say something like 'Maximum capacity 3.0 for NA engines, 1.6L for turbo's, maximum two rotors if you want to use that, minimum 10MPG and stock fuel pump and have at it, but it would be expensive!
At least formula 1 isn't quite in the realms of indycar where the whole race is spent eeking out as much MPG as you can, hoping there's a yellow flag so you can make it to the end on less fuel stops!
I don't like the 'both tyres' rule but without it I reckon everyone would end up on the same strategy. Use the fastest tyre always as, usually this would be the fastest lap after lap. No one would be using a different strategy.
I would love a return to qualifying tyres also. Pirelli say they can do it but the teams aren't so keen and Parc Fermé rules would need to be changed.
I would love to say something like 'Maximum capacity 3.0 for NA engines, 1.6L for turbo's, maximum two rotors if you want to use that, minimum 10MPG and stock fuel pump and have at it, but it would be expensive!
At least formula 1 isn't quite in the realms of indycar where the whole race is spent eeking out as much MPG as you can, hoping there's a yellow flag so you can make it to the end on less fuel stops!
I don't like the 'both tyres' rule but without it I reckon everyone would end up on the same strategy. Use the fastest tyre always as, usually this would be the fastest lap after lap. No one would be using a different strategy.
I would love a return to qualifying tyres also. Pirelli say they can do it but the teams aren't so keen and Parc Fermé rules would need to be changed.
There are plenty of competing 'pulls' on F1 in terms of how this discussion might pan out, not least the views of drivers vs. fans.
Drivers will always want the competitive advantage and don't want to have to throttle back to secure a better result (be that in qualifying or in the race). But there is a balance and skill required in managing your overall package to best effect. That's not unique to F1, or even motor-racing.
As a fan I want to see racing, i.e. wheel to wheel dicing and overtaking, ideally based on the skill of the driver. But, to many a casual observer of F1, an overtake is an overtake... (but make it too easy and other people will bang on about how it's artificial... there's no pleasing everyone...
). And I'd wager these same people are unlikely to see much difference between a driver going flat out and one who is in 'preservation mode'.
At the moment I'm enjoying the tendency for races to build to something of a climax with action taking place in the last few laps, rather than people throttling back to preserve a gap and maintain that to the finish. I'd rather have that (artificial or otherwise) than a bore-fest where cars just circulate in their starting order for 90 minutes or so.
If I had one complaint, however, the thing which *still* gets on my nerves is the difficulty of a car behind to be consistantly able to pass the car in front in anything other than a DRS zone (and even then it's not guaranteed, as we saw yesterday). To my mind the aero regs still have some room for improvement, not least so the car behind doesn't unduly suffer with increased tyre wear while they're sliding around in dirty air.
Overall I think they need to leave things alone for a while and let us enjoy the racing, even if the drivers aren't able to go flat out for the entire race.
the main issue with the tyres in my opinion is that they are preventing fast cars which slip down the grid from being able to regain lost ground. as soon as you're in traffic then you take more out of the tyres and if you do manage to get past it, you have nothing less to chase down the leaders. I think that pirelli need to solve this problem a bit for us to get really good racing. for example when a front-running car has a poor pitstop and slips down its now very hard for them to fight their way back.
Matt_N said:
Seperate allocation of tyres for qualy would be my suggestion.
I tend to agree, but one of the arguments for using the tyres you qualified on for the race (if you're in Q3) was that it gave the cars behind a bit of a chance to catch and race with the cars in front.Again, it's artificial, but in terms of the overall 'entertainment' I can sort of see their point.
It's a bit like the 'fuel burning' laps when they banned refuelling and cars were just tootling round putting fuel in the bank rather than doing qualifying speed laps - if there's a way for the engineers to find and exploit a loophole then they will, and qualifying tyres would probably be no exception.
other issue seems to be that they are somewhat inconsistent, one set is OK, the next is dire going on what the drivers/teams have been saying all year. (this used to be a problem back in the past of F1, the stories of Bernies man sniffing out the decent ones for Brabham are well known)
I am surprised by the ammount of people calling for a tyre war and durable tyres.
That's what we had from 1995-2009, a tyre war followed by the indestructable Bridgestones with refuelling, it resulted in drivers running qualifing pace for 15-20 laps and from what I remember most of that dull beyond words.
That's what we had from 1995-2009, a tyre war followed by the indestructable Bridgestones with refuelling, it resulted in drivers running qualifing pace for 15-20 laps and from what I remember most of that dull beyond words.
Megaflow said:
I am surprised by the ammount of people calling for a tyre war and durable tyres.
That's what we had from 1995-2009, a tyre war followed by the indestructable Bridgestones with refuelling, it resulted in drivers running qualifing pace for 15-20 laps and from what I remember most of that dull beyond words.
you just answered your own question....That's what we had from 1995-2009, a tyre war followed by the indestructable Bridgestones with refuelling, it resulted in drivers running qualifing pace for 15-20 laps and from what I remember most of that dull beyond words.
it was great right up to Bridgestone being sole supplier (when Michelin were forced out by Spankies political agenda)
Scuffers said:
Megaflow said:
I am surprised by the ammount of people calling for a tyre war and durable tyres.
That's what we had from 1995-2009, a tyre war followed by the indestructable Bridgestones with refuelling, it resulted in drivers running qualifing pace for 15-20 laps and from what I remember most of that dull beyond words.
you just answered your own question....That's what we had from 1995-2009, a tyre war followed by the indestructable Bridgestones with refuelling, it resulted in drivers running qualifing pace for 15-20 laps and from what I remember most of that dull beyond words.
it was great right up to Bridgestone being sole supplier (when Michelin were forced out by Spankies political agenda)
Tyre war threw up a few surprise results, and the odd weekend where one make would be dominant.
The tyres are about the only spec component in F1. If they can't make them work then that is the team and the driver's issue, perhaps they would like to find another place to display their talent?
Sorry whilst the cars might not be able to race flat strap 100% of the time F1 has always been about far, far more than that. If we change the tyres the next thing is people will moan that with the fuel restrictions they can't run at full pace the whole race. Once that is dealt with there will be the next thing such as why don't we have T/C back, and then another and another.
Sorry I think that Pirelli have produced a cracking tyre. The racing is wonderful this year and for the teams it is a total nightmare to choose if it is better to stay out and try to hang on or if they should pit for new boots.
So far F1 2012 is turning into a stellar year and I would rather see 4 or 5 teams in with a shout than 1 or 2 sharing all the spoils between them.
Rude-boy said:
Things and stuff
What he said ^^^As an aside I think motorsport is it's most entertaining when there is an excess of power over grip. If anything I'd want to see much less grip from the tyres to start with, make the drivers really have to work the car to get it to go fast.
llewop said:
exactly - you can't look at the tyres in isolation - current F1 is very very reliable, so it is almost unheard of for a high percentage of cars to have problems or perish the thought, not finish!
MSc is probably looking whistfully back to 'his' era when the tyres were indestructable & tailored to his requirements!
Some might look back to 60's, 70's or 80's and say that you need the tyre competition from some of these times - but in those days, as well as quali tyres - that wouldn't last 5 minutes in a race, the cars themselves were fragile as hell! Yes, this year, even more than last year, they are having to nurse the tyres, but in previous decades they were nursing engines, gearboxes and just about everything else!
With reliable cars there must be variables that require the drivers to exert their skill, otherwise they will generally finish in more or less the order they start in - so in my view: damned well done Pirelli - keep up the good work!
Interesting post. Thanks for that.MSc is probably looking whistfully back to 'his' era when the tyres were indestructable & tailored to his requirements!
Some might look back to 60's, 70's or 80's and say that you need the tyre competition from some of these times - but in those days, as well as quali tyres - that wouldn't last 5 minutes in a race, the cars themselves were fragile as hell! Yes, this year, even more than last year, they are having to nurse the tyres, but in previous decades they were nursing engines, gearboxes and just about everything else!
With reliable cars there must be variables that require the drivers to exert their skill, otherwise they will generally finish in more or less the order they start in - so in my view: damned well done Pirelli - keep up the good work!
I find myself being a little frustrated by the tyre situation and feeling for the spectators when some drivers don't even bother to come out in Q3. Mind you, Rosberg seems to manage the tyres better than Schuey.
Whilst my first thought is that, as a purist, I'd prefer to do away with DRS, KERS and poor tyres, we've had a season so far that has had four different drivers on the top step in the first four races. We've had teams whom you never saw a couple of years ago up at the front and even leading the GP for a while.
Drivers have always had to manage something.
The best GP I ever saw was the 87 British and that was, to a great extent, artificial. There were tyres and fuel to manage there.
It is all very well for MSc to ask for 80% of drivers to put pressure on the rule makers but there was a time when everyone but Ferrari were upset with the way tyres were made for just one team, and that one had one driver.
So my vote goes for the status quo.
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