RE: DTM uber alles!

[B33FY]

EDLT said:

I'd rather have more 'chavs' than pompous s like yourself.

Yet another keyboard warrior who's post count is more important than saying something constructive thats if he can string two words together without swearing and personally attacking contributors just because it hits a nerve. I'm entitled to my voice my view as much as you if you don't like it then just crawl away and shrivel up quietly. Another piece of st I need to wipe from my shoe.

End of.

[egor110]

You do both realise that if your just a punter who's paid to watch a days racing neither of you are important.

The only people who count are those sponsoring teams, or potential sponsors everyone is a punter regardless of what you drive, how highly paid you are or how long you've been watching motorsports.

[Munter]

Riggers said:

However, we are interested in the BTCC, and we do have some plans for it later in the season, so watch this space (well not this exact one, but you know what we mean ).

(And I think you can probably guess whose efforts we are most specifically interested in)

This guy!

[EDLT]

e21Mark said:

EDLT said:

Because PH has to cater to the masses, and most of PH think that both of the Cs in BTCC stand for 'chav'.

Not entirely sure that's true given that one of the drivers is a regular poster here.

I always loved the BTCC back in the days of Soper, Winkelhock, O'dor etc. I enjoyed the cars being closer to what Jo Public could own/drive. The DTM was the other end of the spectrum. I met Jan Magnussen (as he'd driven for a Formula Opel team I was gopher for) and he told us about the front ends on his Mercedes being £45k a go! Bear in mind this was the mid-nineties. I lost interest when it became an Opel / Mercedes monopoly though. I think they're just different ends of the touring car spectrum though and there's plenty of room for both.

You should read some of the BTCC threads, or even just a few posts above this one. There is always someone who thinks we all want to hear that they don't like the BTCC and therefore it is the stuff of 'chavs'.

[EDLT]

B33FY said:

EDLT said:

I'd rather have more 'chavs' than pompous s like yourself.

Yet another keyboard warrior who's post count is more important than saying something constructive thats if he can string two words together without swearing and personally attacking contributors just because it hits a nerve. I'm entitled to my voice my view as much as you if you don't like it then just crawl away and shrivel up quietly. Another piece of st I need to wipe from my shoe.

End of.

I did say something constructive, 'chavs' (people you don't like) good, pompous s (you) bad. You might think you are entitled to an opinion, but everyone else is entitled to tell you it is a load of bks.

[DJRC]

EDLT said:

e21Mark said:

EDLT said:

Because PH has to cater to the masses, and most of PH think that both of the Cs in BTCC stand for 'chav'.

Not entirely sure that's true given that one of the drivers is a regular poster here.

I always loved the BTCC back in the days of Soper, Winkelhock, O'dor etc. I enjoyed the cars being closer to what Jo Public could own/drive. The DTM was the other end of the spectrum. I met Jan Magnussen (as he'd driven for a Formula Opel team I was gopher for) and he told us about the front ends on his Mercedes being £45k a go! Bear in mind this was the mid-nineties. I lost interest when it became an Opel / Mercedes monopoly though. I think they're just different ends of the touring car spectrum though and there's plenty of room for both.

You should read some of the BTCC threads, or even just a few posts above this one. There is always someone who thinks we all want to hear that they don't like the BTCC and therefore it is the stuff of 'chavs'.

Because the way the series has conducted itself over recent series has lead to that way of thinking. Every BTCC thread is mostly about the tactics and ethics of whether BTCC is now glorified banger racing and the damage that Plato and Neal have done to the sport. The lack of manufactuers, works, support, etc.

Im actually enjoying this season. I like the differential between the S2000 and NGTC cars and how the tyres are mixing things up.

[e21Mark]

Agressive driving / racing was something that, to me anyway, seemed to be encouraged and rivalry between the likes of Cleland and Soper has been taken a step or two, or three, further by Plato and Neil. Close racing will bring occasional incidents but nowadays the racing sometimes seems to come second. Driving a slower car defensively, to protect ones position, is now seen as justification for simply barging your way past, instead of an example of race craft and positioning of the car. I used to love the David and Goliath battles between Minis and Ford Galaxies but if they'd adopted todays tactics the Minis would have simply been tipped into a spin. Personally, I think the pendulum simply swung too far toward the aggression for entertainment and away from the racing. Maybe it will swing back a little? I think it would be sad to simply dismiss the BTCC as being the domain of chavs though.

I still get goose bumps when I watch this though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCij9mYIokA

[ArnageWRC]

e21Mark said:

Agressive driving / racing was something that, to me anyway, seemed to be encouraged and rivalry between the likes of Cleland and Soper has been taken a step or two, or three, further by Plato and Neil. Close racing will bring occasional incidents but nowadays the racing sometimes seems to come second. Driving a slower car defensively, to protect ones position, is now seen as justification for simply barging your way past, instead of an example of race craft and positioning of the car. I used to love the David and Goliath battles between Minis and Ford Galaxies but if they'd adopted todays tactics the Minis would have simply been tipped into a spin. Personally, I think the pendulum simply swung too far toward the aggression for entertainment and away from the racing. Maybe it will swing back a little? I think it would be sad to simply dismiss the BTCC as being the domain of chavs though.

I still get goose bumps when I watch this though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCij9mYIokA

Spot on!! Used to love the BTCC...Which was tough, hard racing, which occasionally, went over the top. But it had it all - great drivers, great racing and cars which were exciting enough for good quality racing. And look at the Teams/ drivers it attracted Winklehock, Biela, Tarquini, Ravaglia, Schnitzer, Audi, etc And I still get the TOCA games out on the PS2 from time to time.
Now, whilst I still watch it, I can't be doing with the antics of the drivers - crashing, barging is not Motor racing, but it seems to be the whole 'selling point' of the BTCC.

[Riggers]

Munter said:

Riggers said:

However, we are interested in the BTCC, and we do have some plans for it later in the season, so watch this space (well not this exact one, but you know what we mean ).

(And I think you can probably guess whose efforts we are most specifically interested in)

This guy!

[chevronb37]

I'm all for rose-tinted spectacles - I rarely remove mine...BUT...there was just as much argy bargy in the BTCC during the 90s as there is now. I concur that the Neal/Plato axis is probably stepping too far into making it a contact sport, but Cleland, Harvey, Soper, et al all did their own fair share of paint swapping. I was fortunate to attend - I think - every BTCC round held at Oulton Park from 1989 to 2000 and there was a real buzz to being there. I still recall the thrill of seeing Smokin' Jo head down from Old Hall to Cascades as the Schnitzer team debuted in Cheshire. I put my stopwatch on him and he was on lap record pace from a standing start. I was only 9 years old and that moment alone helped define my love of motor racing. Seems like yesterday...

Since the demise of Super Touring, I've only been to three BTCC meetings and one was Donington a few weeks ago. I absolutely loved it! The NGTCs move around with very mobile back ends, they sound great and they're properly quick. The crowd is a bit different to the historic events one might attend, but as entertaining motor racing it is brilliant. I just think a slightly heavier hand in policing driving standards - and applying them consistently irrespective of experience and reputation - would help.

By contrast, a DTM car in isolation is a brilliant machine. But in the half dozen-or-so times I've witnessed DTM live I've seen precious little overtaking and genuine racing. Even last year when precipitation added a layer of unpredictability, there wasn't much movement among the field. I think the extremely high general level of talent is as much to blame as the cars, but that may be a divisive view. Truth is, for pure racing, at DTM events, the greatest thrills I've experienced have been from Elise Trophy and FFord support races. Anyone who stuck around for the second Elise Trophy race at Brands in 2010 was treated to one of the finest club races you could imagine. Funnily enough, it reminded me of the BTCC race I watched at the same circuit in 2003...

So if you go to the DTM expecting constant panel-bashing and side-by-side action you'll be disappointed. Equally if you go to BTCC expecting Grand Prix rivalling levels of driving throughout the field, then it'll let you down. Take both within their own context, worry not about the demographic of the crowd and enjoy the sheer spectacle of great cars being driven by great drivers. The variety and scope of motor racing is what makes it so infinitely fascinating.

[Craiglamuffin]

Reardy Mister said:

Craiglamuffin said:

I keep getting tempted to compare DTM and BTCC too, but I'm sure they're not aiming at the same spot. Having seen both at Brands in the last year, DTM is of course the more spectacular (the noise!!), but the racing was no where near as entertaining on the small Indy circuit as the BTCC race was.

Completely different. Love both.

NB. Im not comparing the two in terms of the spectacle, just suggesting BTCC should get proportionately more airtime on PH. I enjoy both also.

Oh sorry, I was referring to the comparison in the article!

[EDLT]

chevronb37 said:

I'm all for rose-tinted spectacles - I rarely remove mine...BUT...there was just as much argy bargy in the BTCC during the 90s as there is now. I concur that the Neal/Plato axis is probably stepping too far into making it a contact sport, but Cleland, Harvey, Soper, et al all did their own fair share of paint swapping. I was fortunate to attend - I think - every BTCC round held at Oulton Park from 1989 to 2000 and there was a real buzz to being there. I still recall the thrill of seeing Smokin' Jo head down from Old Hall to Cascades as the Schnitzer team debuted in Cheshire. I put my stopwatch on him and he was on lap record pace from a standing start. I was only 9 years old and that moment alone helped define my love of motor racing. Seems like yesterday...

Shhh. You're not allowed to remind people that there has always been contact in the BTCC.

[e21Mark]

EDLT said:

Shhh. You're not allowed to remind people that there has always been contact in the BTCC.

I don't think anyone believes that do they? Isn't it the amount and the motive behind it, that's being discussed here though and the potentially negative effect on the series as a whole.

[Fantuzzi]

ArnageWRC said:

Yeah, except old Ralfy boy....

The BTCC is more action packed, but the driving standards are pretty poor.

Glad some agrees with me thought I was alone in thinking it had far too much contact,with the 'rubbing is racing' ethos used as an excuse for a demolition derby

Edited by Fantuzzi on Friday 4th May 02:45

[Banjo47]

EDLT said:

B33FY said:

EDLT said:

I'd rather have more 'chavs' than pompous s like yourself.

Yet another keyboard warrior who's post count is more important than saying something constructive thats if he can string two words together without swearing and personally attacking contributors just because it hits a nerve. I'm entitled to my voice my view as much as you if you don't like it then just crawl away and shrivel up quietly. Another piece of st I need to wipe from my shoe.

End of.

I did say something constructive, 'chavs' (people you don't like) good, pompous s (you) bad. You might think you are entitled to an opinion, but everyone else is entitled to tell you it is a load of bks.

Actually B33Fy you do sound a bit of a dick. Why do you think motor racing should be a secret? You sound like one of those dreadful people who wanted to keep Goodwood a secret and now moan because due to its success people want to go and enjoy it.

[chevronb37]

EDLT said:

Shhh. You're not allowed to remind people that there has always been contact in the BTCC.

Sorry, should I be perpetuating the myth that the 90s BTCC drivers were beyond criticism and the contemporary guys are a pack of chumps? Don't buy it - sorry. I saw enough panel bashing in the 90s and it was often more tactical as the manufacturer teams were investing far more money. For me, the most worrying aspect is the influence on the Ginetta Junior guys.

[B33FY]

Banjo47 said:

Actually B33Fy you do sound a bit of a dick. Why do you think motor racing should be a secret? You sound like one of those dreadful people who wanted to keep Goodwood a secret and now moan because due to its success people want to go and enjoy it.

In terms of keeping motor racing a secret I'm the last person that would want this, I encourage others to attend meetings and share the spectacle of a great day out, be it at a local club event or internatioal race meet. My anxiety as always is when events get so popular to the extent they are then a victim of their own success. As mentioned in the original article where else can you get up personal with the teams and drivers. With rising popularity its aspects like this that are the first to change along an esculation in cost.

There is a choice to go or not to go I accept things move on and change for the greater good (in most cases). I will still chooose to go as much as it is practically possible and I will support this and other events as much as I'm financially able to.

As for being a dick, at least its better than being called a

[Banjo47]

B33FY said:

In terms of keeping motor racing a secret I'm the last person that would want this, I encourage others to attend meetings and share the spectacle of a great day out, be it at a local club event or internatioal race meet. My anxiety as always is when events get so popular to the extent they are then a victim of their own success. As mentioned in the original article where else can you get up personal with the teams and drivers. With rising popularity its aspects like this that are the first to change along an esculation in cost.

There is a choice to go or not to go I accept things move on and change for the greater good (in most cases). I will still chooose to go as much as it is practically possible and I will support this and other events as much as I'm financially able to.

As for being a dick, at least its better than being called a

I think EDLT already did that for me

[Banjo47]

Banjo47 said:

I think EDLT already did that for me

But your earlier comments are understood and I agree that Motor Racing in this country needs all the support it can get. Last time I went to DTM at Brands Lewis Hamilton was there signing autographs for loads of people, Ralph nSchumachwer was whizzing round the paddock on his pit scooter and the racing was good. Just a shame they dont use the GP circuit.

[chevronb37]

B33FY said:

Banjo47 said:

Actually B33Fy you do sound a bit of a dick. Why do you think motor racing should be a secret? You sound like one of those dreadful people who wanted to keep Goodwood a secret and now moan because due to its success people want to go and enjoy it.

In terms of keeping motor racing a secret I'm the last person that would want this, I encourage others to attend meetings and share the spectacle of a great day out, be it at a local club event or internatioal race meet. My anxiety as always is when events get so popular to the extent they are then a victim of their own success. As mentioned in the original article where else can you get up personal with the teams and drivers. With rising popularity its aspects like this that are the first to change along an esculation in cost.

There is a choice to go or not to go I accept things move on and change for the greater good (in most cases). I will still chooose to go as much as it is practically possible and I will support this and other events as much as I'm financially able to.

As for being a dick, at least its better than being called a

Don't you have to pay extra for the DTM pitlane walk about? Even then the driver access is marginal. Truth be told if you want to get up close to drivers anywhere except Goodwood you really need VIP or media passes.