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toppstuff
Original Poster
8,388 posts
116 months
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They are'nt really new anymore, are they? They have been at it for a couple of seasons. They have useful enough engines. Four wheels and a steering wheel and the same tyres as everyone else. They also have perfectly capable drivers. Indeed, I was watching the Pedro de la Rosa interview with DC on Sunday, and the way he described driving the HRT was interesting. He explained that other cars would take a corner flat and have grip, while the HRT would be sliding going into the corner, sliding through the corner and sliding even more going out of the corner ! Far from being hopeless backmarkers, you could make a case for saying that some of the drivers at the back of the grid are pretty heroic. Driving a nailed down, stable RedBull at 180mph into Eau Rouge is one thing, driving an HRT sideways into the same corner at similar speeds needs big cajones. I think maybe these drivers deserve more respect. So what about the teams and their lack of pace? Well I guess it all comes down to aero. They have poor aero grip and so their cornering speeds are way lower than the rest of the grid. Why is this? It can't be so hard, shirley? All the cars look the same to me anyway. Why is the aero package of the back-end teams so rubbish compared to the others? And what can they do about it? 
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Dubai
455 posts
32 months
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Costs of development must be a big factor?
The $$ spent on the I.T equipment and running thousands of hrs of simulations etc.
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BelperJim
1,607 posts
52 months
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Vocal Minority
2,107 posts
21 months
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toppstuff said: Why is this? It can't be so hard, shirley? All the cars look the same to me anyway. Well the devil truly in the detail in aerodynamics at this level. It is, as said above, pounds and pence, dollars and cents. Wind tunnels and CFD are ferrociously expensive to run. As are people. The more staff and facilities you have the more ideas you can come up with and trial. Therefore the teams with the most research budget and therefore capacity (as well as the odd flash of genius like Newey) are the one's who win.
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toppstuff
Original Poster
8,388 posts
116 months
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Its easy to blame a lack of money. To an extent it is true but there must be more to it. Brawn were not exactly minted were they?
I don't expect a Marrussia to win , but the distance between the back and the front of the grid is too great.
What are the lower teams doing? Can't they just copy everyone else ? Its not as if the air keeps changing is it? Or the tracks?
There is plenty of data out there. And everyone can pretty much see everyone elses cars. There are some secrets, so they don't remain a secret for long.
Cars of essentially the same design have been pounding the same tracks for a couple of seasons now. It is a known and measured environment.
In Qualy at Silverstone in 2010, Vettel took pole in 1.29.6. Glock in a Virgin did it in 1.34.7. In 2011 it was Webber on pole in 1.30.39, with a Virgin at 1.36.2.
The gap is getting larger , not smaller.
I think I could do this F1 design malarkey. I could hardly make HRT or Marussia Virgin results any worse, could I?
If Red Bull decide to stick a used lolly stick to the upper McGurney flap attached to the rear force field array of their cars, then why don't Marrussia just do the same thing?
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Cyder
4,774 posts
89 months
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toppstuff said: I think I could do this F1 design malarkey. I could hardly make HRT or Marussia Virgin results any worse, could I?
If Red Bull decide to stick a used lolly stick to the upper McGurney flap attached to the rear force field array of their cars, then why don't Marrussia just do the same thing? I assume you don't work in, or have connections to the industry as the above are very naive points. The guys working at HRT/Marussia are not daft, they're very good engineers and are working their nuts off to try and keep up (I know a couple of lads at Marussia) they simply can't compete with the resources and knowledge of the bigger teams but are still producing updates and mod's albeit not as quickly as the bigger boys, hence the gap widening. Making a change to one part of the car can adversely affect other areas, so making a mod to the rear wing could unsettle the front/reduce stability etc. They can't just copy stuff without ensuring it isn't going to bugger up the rest of the car. Also, if they thought just sticking the lolly stick on would work I'm pretty sure they'd give it a go!
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davepoth
19,945 posts
68 months
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toppstuff said: Its easy to blame a lack of money. To an extent it is true but there must be more to it. Brawn were not exactly minted were they? Honda were though. And Brawn did absolutely no development work that year because they had no money - that's why the car appeared slower in the second half of the season. That's why the Mercedes was slow in the first year too.
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900T-R
18,563 posts
126 months
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toppstuff said: Its easy to blame a lack of money. To an extent it is true but there must be more to it. Brawn were not exactly minted were they? Small detail: Honda spent a couple of hundred million developing their car for them. Also, look how far they fell back because of lack of funds developing the car through the season...
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StevieBee
4,266 posts
124 months
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Several years ago, I had a tour round the Jordan factory. One of the things that fascinated me was a bit of kit called 'Stereo Lithographic'. This took a 3D CAD drawing and using lasers fired onto a liquid polymer, created a physical, 3D version of what was created on the computer (think of hitting print but instead of getting a printout on a bit of paper, you get the actual thing you'd just designed).
This meant that a new part could be designed, rendered and fitted to a wind tunnel model to see if actually worked before putting it into full production.
The issue was that it took a good 10 hours or so render some of the more complex parts. The guy doing the tour mentioned that each bit of kit costs £0.5m and Jordan had three of them. Ferrari had 25!
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NHK244V
1,636 posts
41 months
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BelperJim said: Money. this and the fact the top teams have years and years more development under thier belts, inploy cleverer peeps although thats back down to money, less clever peeps cost less to employ lol
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NHK244V
1,636 posts
41 months
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toppstuff said: Its easy to blame a lack of money. To an extent it is true but there must be more to it. Brawn were not exactly minted were they?
I don't expect a Marrussia to win , but the distance between the back and the front of the grid is too great.
What are the lower teams doing? Can't they just copy everyone else ? Its not as if the air keeps changing is it? Or the tracks?
There is plenty of data out there. And everyone can pretty much see everyone elses cars. There are some secrets, so they don't remain a secret for long.
Cars of essentially the same design have been pounding the same tracks for a couple of seasons now. It is a known and measured environment.
In Qualy at Silverstone in 2010, Vettel took pole in 1.29.6. Glock in a Virgin did it in 1.34.7. In 2011 it was Webber on pole in 1.30.39, with a Virgin at 1.36.2.
The gap is getting larger , not smaller.
I think I could do this F1 design malarkey. I could hardly make HRT or Marussia Virgin results any worse, could I?
If Red Bull decide to stick a used lolly stick to the upper McGurney flap attached to the rear force field array of their cars, then why don't Marrussia just do the same thing? Using Brawn is totaly floored, yes brawn had little cash but the team that actually built the car was Honda who over the prev few years had spent millions on the car! never be fooled into thinking it was a Brawn car than won Brawn the championship  Do you actually follow F1 ? not seen the amount of court cases where one team sues another for copying thier ideas  Yes secret don't remain secret very long but only to teams with the money to analise the "secrets" IE employ photographers to take pics/record the other cars, pay somone to analise the info, pay somone to build from the data ect ect like people keep saying MONEY. "I think I could do this F1 design malarkey. I could hardly make HRT or Marussia Virgin results any worse, could I?" sorry most stupid coment ever on an F1 forum "If Red Bull decide to stick a used lolly stick to the upper McGurney flap attached to the rear force field array of their cars, then why don't Marrussia just do the same thing?" Because they dont have the same car and aero at the rear is affected by the way air flow is directed at the front, what works for one car doesn't work for another car, that's why it takes weeks if not months to intergrate those "secrets" you seem to think you could copy so easyly.
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toppstuff
Original Poster
8,388 posts
116 months
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Cyder said: I assume you don't work in, or have connections to the industry as the above are very naive points. Well my tongue is firmly in my cheek, for sure, but F1 does need to think about how the current model seems to prevent teams from being able to be competitive from lower down the grid. I wonder sometimes if the results for F1 are decided in a massive bunga bunga party thrown by Bernie. All the team heads gather together and Bernie decides who is going to win over the next 3 or 4 years. The teams then go away and plan accordingly. So if a team knows that it is their turn to be fast in 2013, they started making plans to be a bit better in 2011, peaking at the back end of 2012 and then winning loads in 2013. Other teams will know that they are set to go into decline for a few years, so they hire different drivers and alter their profile until it is their turn again. I know this is right. After all, it is the only possible explanation for Ralf Schumacher. Right now, Williams are gearing up for a big push in 2013. They fired everyone and have a much better car. Same goes for Sauber. Ferrari have arranged for Alonso to be WDC in 2012 , which explains why they were not bothered about Massa. However, Massa is being a bit more rubbish than we was meant to be, prompting the team to take action in case anyone rumbles their plan. McLaren keep upsetting Bernie by not playing to his game, pretending they did'nt get the email. Hamilton was not meant to win on Sunday - his pole position was an "up yours" to the pre-determined decision to let Williams win because it was Franks birthday and Bernie felt sorry for him. Bernie's boys got things back to normal using a 3 foot bit of plastic hose and a strong suck when the McLaren was waiting for qually to start and Lewis was having a pee break. What the guys at Marrussia don't know is that they have already booked a podium position at the first Moscow GP. Bernie thought it would play well with the TV advertisers there. The deal is done. The Marussia is going to be fantastic in 2014. You read it here first. edited to add that I cannot believe how seriously people are taking me... While I think the poor performance of the lower teams is a worry and a serious point, the humour seems to be lost on a few of you here...anyway, as you were....
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Scuffers
10,418 posts
143 months
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StevieBee said: Several years ago, I had a tour round the Jordan factory. One of the things that fascinated me was a bit of kit called 'Stereo Lithographic'. This took a 3D CAD drawing and using lasers fired onto a liquid polymer, created a physical, 3D version of what was created on the computer (think of hitting print but instead of getting a printout on a bit of paper, you get the actual thing you'd just designed).
This meant that a new part could be designed, rendered and fitted to a wind tunnel model to see if actually worked before putting it into full production.
The issue was that it took a good 10 hours or so render some of the more complex parts. The guy doing the tour mentioned that each bit of kit costs £0.5m and Jordan had three of them. Ferrari had 25! that was the case some years ago, but they are (relatively) cheap as chips today, you can even buy domestic ones in the US for under $1K (they do 6,6,7 inch objects)
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DanDC5
6,937 posts
36 months
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900T-R said: toppstuff said: Its easy to blame a lack of money. To an extent it is true but there must be more to it. Brawn were not exactly minted were they? Small detail: Honda spent a couple of hundred million developing their car for them. Also, look how far they fell back because of lack of funds developing the car through the season... Honda also left the Brawn team with just shy of a £100million to get them through the next season or 2. The sad part was that Honda themselves said the 2009 car was a championship contender then pulled out of F1!
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toppstuff
Original Poster
8,388 posts
116 months
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DanDC5 said: Honda also left the Brawn team with just shy of a £100million to get them through the next season or 2. Yeah, that was a hefty reminder of just how pig headedly stupid large corporations can be. The Brawn was essentially, the new Honda. It was always going to be a Honda. Only a bad case of panic attacks in tokyo in the teeth of a financial crisis caused Honda management to have some kind of collective attack of stupidity. They did'nt even bother with a clause insisting that the cars carry a Honda logo on the engine cover if they started being competitive. It was a complete cut and run job. For Brawn it was awesome. Essentially, Honda won a championship. They paid for it. But they did'nt benefit from it. I wonder if the clown responsible still has a prominent job at Honda or has he been retired? Maybe Bernie had a bad experience with a warranty claim on his Honda Jazz and they fell out.
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Otispunkmeyer
2,810 posts
24 months
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Vocal Minority said: toppstuff said: Why is this? It can't be so hard, shirley? All the cars look the same to me anyway. Well the devil truly in the detail in aerodynamics at this level. It is, as said above, pounds and pence, dollars and cents. Wind tunnels and CFD are ferrociously expensive to run. As are people. The more staff and facilities you have the more ideas you can come up with and trial. Therefore the teams with the most research budget and therefore capacity (as well as the odd flash of genius like Newey) are the one's who win. Really is. For example, Ive seen McLaren CFD footage of them modelling air pressure waves in the air box, with valve openings timed to take the waves. The result is a kind of supercharging...without mechanical compressors. Again with McLaren, when the diffusers were clamped down on again, McLaren had little turning vanes that mixed air from the sidepods, with exhaust gases creating a vortex column of air shot between tyre and rear wing to act as sort of air curtain to try control the flow from the diffuser. I.e. trying to make the diffuser bigger than it was. Its fascinating stuff... but you need the man power and the CPU time to even begin to try look at these things. After that you probably need to at least do some scale tests in a wind tunnel. The problem with just doing CFD is, its really no good unless you have some actual field tests or wind tunnel tests to validate what you are doing. And Topstuff Brawn werent minted no, but they did inherit a good base with the car mostly designed by Honda. In that case, with the change of regulations, Brawn spotted a loop hole and it was too late by the time everyone else caught up. They didnt have the money, but they had that one little trick that no one else spotted and in this game, thats all you need. (also helps that Brawn is a very very clever man)
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CocoUK
433 posts
51 months
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I was discussing this after the Spanish qualifying as Caterham, Marussia & HRT are always 2.5-3.0 seconds off the top teams pace in every session.
It would be great if they were fighting out with the Toro Rossos & Massa... but money does indeed talk.
It's a catch22 scenario for them. They all need more sponsors dollas to make the cars go faster but they need to make the cars go faster to attract more sponsors dollas.
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Munter
23,712 posts
110 months
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Otispunkmeyer said: The problem with just doing CFD is, its really no good unless you have some actual field tests or wind tunnel tests to validate what you are doing. I think it was Virgin/Marussia who proposed that they would be 100% CFD. To a lot of raised eyebrows. And then after a while decided tunnel time is required.
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dtrump
1,281 posts
60 months
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Money and the fact that while the slower teams have excellent engineers, the top teams have engineers which are even more excellent
I also believe that while working at the top you are more willing to put in the effort, after all you may win.
At the back you have little drive if all you are aiming for is 19th on a fairytale afternoon
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joewilliams
1,465 posts
70 months
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Go back twenty years and compare the gaps between the teams at the front and those at the back.
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