Be honest...how good are you?
Discussion
kazste said:
Probably way off the mark, but I feel as though on any given corner with a decent amount of practice I would be as quick as any driver currently in f1, however when it comes to a lap I would he no where near as for a race, forget it!
Went on a karting day and it was strongly recommended to me that I take it up due to my lap times and consistency (in the wet I might add on slick tyres) after they found out that I didn't already race. Must say that did make me feel good
Your not the techy bloke off 'The Office' are you Went on a karting day and it was strongly recommended to me that I take it up due to my lap times and consistency (in the wet I might add on slick tyres) after they found out that I didn't already race. Must say that did make me feel good
The only times I've been going for it on a track was in the Topcats' racing Tuscan. Three separate Trackdays, once at Bedford and twice at Silverstone (full gp circuit), although one of these was very wet.
The last time, it was dry and I basically had the use of car for the afternoon, open pitlane. Bliss.
As many on here know, the Topcats guys/gal are top people, and I was allowed out on track alone.
Consequently, I had a really enjoyable, good old blat-about. Thought I was doing well.
The day done, I was quite proud to find out my lap times were actually quite respectable and not too dissimilar to Charlotte's (Mrs Topcats), whose driving skill I admire. I don't remember exactly - it was 5 or 6 years ago, now - but I think I was lapping around 2 minutes 10-ish.
Of course, I was all chuffed with myself - until I found out that Michael Caine (whose old car I had actually been driving) used to be under 2 minutes.
Realistic head on, I could NEVER have found ten whole seconds on a lap. Not in a million years.
Balloon of ego deflated, I thenceforth had to concede that:
a) I wouldn't be anywhere NEAR good enough to race a car, and
b) The guys that really can, are in a different league entirely.
I recently watched the TT3D: Closer to the Edge film, and Ian Hutchinson's quote just about sums it up - "There you are, plodding along on your road-bike thinking you were a legend.... until you see the race-bikes come through."
Quite.
It was bloody good fun thraping someone else's racing car, though.
The last time, it was dry and I basically had the use of car for the afternoon, open pitlane. Bliss.
As many on here know, the Topcats guys/gal are top people, and I was allowed out on track alone.
Consequently, I had a really enjoyable, good old blat-about. Thought I was doing well.
The day done, I was quite proud to find out my lap times were actually quite respectable and not too dissimilar to Charlotte's (Mrs Topcats), whose driving skill I admire. I don't remember exactly - it was 5 or 6 years ago, now - but I think I was lapping around 2 minutes 10-ish.
Of course, I was all chuffed with myself - until I found out that Michael Caine (whose old car I had actually been driving) used to be under 2 minutes.
Realistic head on, I could NEVER have found ten whole seconds on a lap. Not in a million years.
Balloon of ego deflated, I thenceforth had to concede that:
a) I wouldn't be anywhere NEAR good enough to race a car, and
b) The guys that really can, are in a different league entirely.
I recently watched the TT3D: Closer to the Edge film, and Ian Hutchinson's quote just about sums it up - "There you are, plodding along on your road-bike thinking you were a legend.... until you see the race-bikes come through."
Quite.
It was bloody good fun thraping someone else's racing car, though.
When I was in charge of my police force’s driving school in we went out with the late Peter Gethin, winner of the fastest GP, in a Ford 4x4 Sierra to see if there was anything we could learn from his teaching methods. There was a lot of pressure on me politically due to the number of deaths during police pursuits. I saw this as a way of showing my force was open to different ideas.
My instructors took Gethin around Goodwood circuit and then it was his turn to show us. And he did.
The method of teaching his officers to drive requires that they should be systemised, safe and smooth. Speed comes later. However all my instructors were class one and of the highest quality, as indeed they should be given the amount of practice they had.
Peter Gethin was made of different stuff. He was an athlete. I've never been in a car driven so quickly on a road. He would have failed any form of driver assessment as he took on many people, and no doubt many of his passengers, would consider inappropriate risks. However he showed tremendous car control.
At one time we went over the brow of a hill that was on a left-hand bend. As we got negative G the car drifted to the right and he admitted negative lock. As you do.
My drivers, never ones to go over the top, were full of praise for the chap. They felt that they could not emulate him. And these are class one drivers, they drive fast cars fast for a living and do so under difficult conditions. Yet they failed to Gethin.
All that said, there was no way that we could teach the methods that Gethin used when driving as it was felt his innate ability based on what by guys said the perfect balance, is hardly common.
I've noticed in my time when driven by quality drivers that those whom I would describe as the best, and not only me but their assessors, were always those who made it look easy.
I once wanted to be a rally driver. A chap I knew in the Bexley light car club took me out on a rally once, a sort of special stage. During the day first competitors rolled their cars, hit trees, rolled their cars and hit trees of the special ones, rolled their cars up trees. When I questioned my friend as to their abilities he said the only way to find out how good you are is to find out where your ability runs out. Deciding that I could not afford to replace body shell after body shell I decided to go cycling instead.
I am quite good at cycling.
My instructors took Gethin around Goodwood circuit and then it was his turn to show us. And he did.
The method of teaching his officers to drive requires that they should be systemised, safe and smooth. Speed comes later. However all my instructors were class one and of the highest quality, as indeed they should be given the amount of practice they had.
Peter Gethin was made of different stuff. He was an athlete. I've never been in a car driven so quickly on a road. He would have failed any form of driver assessment as he took on many people, and no doubt many of his passengers, would consider inappropriate risks. However he showed tremendous car control.
At one time we went over the brow of a hill that was on a left-hand bend. As we got negative G the car drifted to the right and he admitted negative lock. As you do.
My drivers, never ones to go over the top, were full of praise for the chap. They felt that they could not emulate him. And these are class one drivers, they drive fast cars fast for a living and do so under difficult conditions. Yet they failed to Gethin.
All that said, there was no way that we could teach the methods that Gethin used when driving as it was felt his innate ability based on what by guys said the perfect balance, is hardly common.
I've noticed in my time when driven by quality drivers that those whom I would describe as the best, and not only me but their assessors, were always those who made it look easy.
I once wanted to be a rally driver. A chap I knew in the Bexley light car club took me out on a rally once, a sort of special stage. During the day first competitors rolled their cars, hit trees, rolled their cars and hit trees of the special ones, rolled their cars up trees. When I questioned my friend as to their abilities he said the only way to find out how good you are is to find out where your ability runs out. Deciding that I could not afford to replace body shell after body shell I decided to go cycling instead.
I am quite good at cycling.
If i'd not had an alcoholic father and maybe came from money then most prob yes if i'd started karting from age 6 or something, weather or not i'd have won is another matter tho
Having driven super fast road cars to super fast karts it's just a matter of fitness and seat time tbh, if you can spend hours a week flying around a track you'll get good, its that simple, this talent thing is b
ks really, some drivers have an edge but generally seat time will gain you speed and what seems scary fast at first actually becomes slow and you get used to the speed.
Out of all the wonderful machines i've driven over the years from gallardo @ 160 mph rear stepping out in the wet, to NSX ( awesome machine ) stepping out over 120+ in the dry to racing ICC gearbox karts and rally cars , the most brutal and closest i've ever got to experience F1 type speed/reactions were the ICC Karts, made the gallardo look/feel like a bus, if any of you ever get the chance to try one do it, then you'll know whats required to drive at that sort of speed. In the USA the Indy drivers use them in training. I got near the best in the UK running huge teams on mega ££ but sadly you need the ££ to win, it was getting silly, new sets of tires x5 in one race day + all the other costs, the motorhomes the spares etc etc etc , self funded even club karting gets silly regards the money and the fun drops away quickly if you take it too serious.
I purchased an old F3 car and ran it for a while and was going to race at club level ( Mono/club F3 ) , but again 30-50k is needed to get near the top, i also looked at building an f3000 car to match the ICC karts and do hill climbs and race in Formula Ireland but the truth of the matter is to get good anywhere in motor racing requires serious money and driving skill is very much the last thing to worry about.
Still have that *what if* tho every time i watch F1
It's impossible these days to get into F1 without serious backing running into millions , old friend of mine ( ex F1 F5000 champ ) purchased a van/fford and got to F1 in a few years, it was a lot easier back then ( 1970's ) but then of course it was rather lethal too...
I race bikes now at national level ( the ones you peddle ) and it's pure skill/talent that gets results not ££ , it's actually just as fun as motorsport in many ways but still think about those crazy gearbox karts, maybe one day i'll drive them again, scary things
Club motorsport is ace fun but take it too serious and think you're gonna hit pro level and the fun and funds will slip away along with the enjoyment.
S
Having driven super fast road cars to super fast karts it's just a matter of fitness and seat time tbh, if you can spend hours a week flying around a track you'll get good, its that simple, this talent thing is b
ks really, some drivers have an edge but generally seat time will gain you speed and what seems scary fast at first actually becomes slow and you get used to the speed. Out of all the wonderful machines i've driven over the years from gallardo @ 160 mph rear stepping out in the wet, to NSX ( awesome machine ) stepping out over 120+ in the dry to racing ICC gearbox karts and rally cars , the most brutal and closest i've ever got to experience F1 type speed/reactions were the ICC Karts, made the gallardo look/feel like a bus, if any of you ever get the chance to try one do it, then you'll know whats required to drive at that sort of speed. In the USA the Indy drivers use them in training. I got near the best in the UK running huge teams on mega ££ but sadly you need the ££ to win, it was getting silly, new sets of tires x5 in one race day + all the other costs, the motorhomes the spares etc etc etc , self funded even club karting gets silly regards the money and the fun drops away quickly if you take it too serious.
I purchased an old F3 car and ran it for a while and was going to race at club level ( Mono/club F3 ) , but again 30-50k is needed to get near the top, i also looked at building an f3000 car to match the ICC karts and do hill climbs and race in Formula Ireland but the truth of the matter is to get good anywhere in motor racing requires serious money and driving skill is very much the last thing to worry about.
Still have that *what if* tho every time i watch F1
It's impossible these days to get into F1 without serious backing running into millions , old friend of mine ( ex F1 F5000 champ ) purchased a van/fford and got to F1 in a few years, it was a lot easier back then ( 1970's ) but then of course it was rather lethal too...
I race bikes now at national level ( the ones you peddle ) and it's pure skill/talent that gets results not ££ , it's actually just as fun as motorsport in many ways but still think about those crazy gearbox karts, maybe one day i'll drive them again, scary things
Club motorsport is ace fun but take it too serious and think you're gonna hit pro level and the fun and funds will slip away along with the enjoyment.
S
superkartracer said:
Having driven super fast road cars to super fast karts it's just a matter of fitness and seat time tbh, if you can spend hours a week flying around a track you'll get good, its that simple, this talent thing is bks really, some drivers have an edge but generally seat time will gain you speed and what seems scary fast at first actually becomes slow and you get used to the speed.
Having sat next to plenty of different drivers in the course of my day job there is definitely a fairly chunky percentage of people that just can't do it and probably never will for whatever reason.ks really, some drivers have an edge but generally seat time will gain you speed and what seems scary fast at first actually becomes slow and you get used to the speed. I do agree though that 'talent' isn't nearly as rare as some make out though, although that rare 'edge' does exist.
The Wookie said:
Having sat next to plenty of different drivers in the course of my day job there is definitely a fairly chunky percentage of people that just can't do it and probably never will for whatever reason.
I do agree though that 'talent' isn't nearly as rare as some make out though, although that rare 'edge' does exist.
Most people, with money and desire as you said could get to within a second or two of the ultimate pace of a given car. Its the last second that is the killer to find...every lap.I do agree though that 'talent' isn't nearly as rare as some make out though, although that rare 'edge' does exist.
pw32 said:
Most people, with money and desire as you said could get to within a second or two of the ultimate pace of a given car. Its the last second that is the killer to find...every lap.
Yyyeaaah, I think you'd be suprised at how rubbish some people are. Remember that even if you're doing tuition you're sitting next to people that want to be there, and generally you don't take an expensive past time up unless you at least think you can do it.Those tail enders you get in most series that could drive the proverbial greasy stick up a dog's posterior and get lapped by the field in a 15 minute race probably represent 30-40% of 'normal' drivers. Granted the remaining 60-70% could manage getting within a couple of seconds of the ultimate pace, and perhaps 30% of them able to be within half a second of it. Then you've got the few percent right at the top who are really gifted.
Having done a few instruction days here, I would rate the worst billy with no track experience at even pegging with the best no-interest guest that's come for a meeting and is getting a ride/drive thrown in to keep them entertained.
I suppose one way of comparing a good racing driver to normal people and some enthusiasts could be to look at the Top Gear Celebrity times.
Off the top of my head I think most get within 10% of the Stig quite a few get within 5% but very few if any get to within 1-2%. Granted Stig does have a lot more experience.
I expect most of these people think they are good drivers.
I think its usually the reaction of most people not to question their driving ability.
I was on a trackday at Castle Combe a few years back.
I was driving my standard E30 BMW 325 sport and very easily caught, passed and left behind by 5 or so secs per lap a guy driving an E30 M3.
Back in the paddock after the session he came over to me and said "Bloody hell what have you had done to that thing" I just said nothing it is standard. "Just your driving then is it?" I guess so. Then he avoided me all day
Off the top of my head I think most get within 10% of the Stig quite a few get within 5% but very few if any get to within 1-2%. Granted Stig does have a lot more experience.
I expect most of these people think they are good drivers.
I think its usually the reaction of most people not to question their driving ability.
I was on a trackday at Castle Combe a few years back.
I was driving my standard E30 BMW 325 sport and very easily caught, passed and left behind by 5 or so secs per lap a guy driving an E30 M3.
Back in the paddock after the session he came over to me and said "Bloody hell what have you had done to that thing" I just said nothing it is standard. "Just your driving then is it?" I guess so. Then he avoided me all day
The Wookie said:
pw32 said:
Most people, with money and desire as you said could get to within a second or two of the ultimate pace of a given car. Its the last second that is the killer to find...every lap.
Yyyeaaah, I think you'd be suprised at how rubbish some people are. Remember that even if you're doing tuition you're sitting next to people that want to be there, and generally you don't take an expensive past time up unless you at least think you can do it.Those tail enders you get in most series that could drive the proverbial greasy stick up a dog's posterior and get lapped by the field in a 15 minute race probably represent 30-40% of 'normal' drivers. Granted the remaining 60-70% could manage getting within a couple of seconds of the ultimate pace, and perhaps 30% of them able to be within half a second of it. Then you've got the few percent right at the top who are really gifted.
Having done a few instruction days here, I would rate the worst billy with no track experience at even pegging with the best no-interest guest that's come for a meeting and is getting a ride/drive thrown in to keep them entertained.
Don't mind doing instruction to people who already race and want to improve. Corporate stuff or begineers, not sure my heart is up to the excitement.
drakart said:
Brilliant. You've been karting and now you think you can match an F1 driver in a corner?! You're right, you are way off the mark! Have you ever driven with a decent driver?
Yep I'm fairly confident that I would be able to do a comparative time around a corner given the same equipment and time to get accustomed, what I would lack is the consistency to repeat it with any degree of regularity or to piece together lap. Nothing wrong with self confidence
RB Will said:
I think its usually the reaction of most people not to question their driving ability.
I was on a trackday at Castle Combe a few years back.
I was driving my standard E30 BMW 325 sport and very easily caught, passed and left behind by 5 or so secs per lap a guy driving an E30 M3.
Back in the paddock after the session he came over to me and said "Bloody hell what have you had done to that thing" I just said nothing it is standard. "Just your driving then is it?" I guess so. Then he avoided me all day
I don't think it's always people not questioning their own ability, I think there's the fact that people get into their own comfort zone. Sometimes they push and get to the edge of that zone, but it doesn't necessarily mean they're going that quick.I was on a trackday at Castle Combe a few years back.
I was driving my standard E30 BMW 325 sport and very easily caught, passed and left behind by 5 or so secs per lap a guy driving an E30 M3.
Back in the paddock after the session he came over to me and said "Bloody hell what have you had done to that thing" I just said nothing it is standard. "Just your driving then is it?" I guess so. Then he avoided me all day
I've had similar experiences on track days with other drivers who generally feel a lot better when I tell them what I've raced and what I do for a living! I always tell them I had exactly the same experience when I started in the Caterham Academy, went and practiced on a few track days in my car and went to the first 'group' test day when everyone was there to be passed like I was standing still by someone in an identical car.
I immediately watched what they were doing, followed them and found myself able to keep up, all the while barely believing how late you could brake and how much speed the damn thing could actually carry around a corner!
There are those who don't question their ability however, and they are the ones who don't move forwards because they think there's nothing they can be taught despite obvious evidence to the contrary, constantly believing that others are cheating or have a better setup or are spending far too much money on their car. They exist at every level of motorsport.
pw32 said:
Sorry, the thinking was they already raced and were looking to throw money at it to get to the front. I was off on a tangent somewhere. As you were.
Don't mind doing instruction to people who already race and want to improve. Corporate stuff or begineers, not sure my heart is up to the excitement.
No worries, I was fairly sure we were thinking along the same lines Don't mind doing instruction to people who already race and want to improve. Corporate stuff or begineers, not sure my heart is up to the excitement.
ETA In fact know one or two in your championship who have thrown a hell of a lot of money at instruction to get to where they are...Yeah it can be hairy at times, particularly in a 170mph road car with 3 point belts and no cage... Most people are fine, almost everyone listens to instruction, the crap people drive slow and the decent ones generally drive within their limits. The only scares come from the ones who both drive beyond their ability and don't listen to your instruction who are thankfully rare.
Worth pointing out that they aren't always executives, the closest I've come to a shunt was with a lesser known F1 test driver who was trying to show off and had surprisingly poor car control in the wet. How do you tell someone that's raced at a much higher level than you how to drive?
Edited by The Wookie on Tuesday 29th May 12:41
Thing is most people won't even have the slightest idea what race cars feel like to drive ( single seaters ) so they think driving a road car around gives them reason to think they are good drivers.
For an idea, Lambo G around 550 HP with non standard exhaust so around 350hp/ton and to most would feel scary fast, now take an F3 car, 450hp/ton and being only 500kg v 3000kg for the G would be in a different world and would scare 99% people to death if they could drive it and not wreak the engine.
Now take an ICC Kart, only 80kg and 50hp so 600 hp/ton, 3g cornering and 0-100 in 4 seconds top speed of 140 if you fancy it , with a 6 speed box, makes the F3 car feel slow. Now step up the the mental 250 E karts , 100 + HP and 90kg, 1100 hp/ton, these are now dangerous and not for the unskilled and about as close to F1 you'll get, i'd love to try one tho.
If anyone really fancies feeling what an Indy/F1 car would feel like give an ICC kart try, you might last a couple of laps 10 seconds off the pace before your body gives-up but it'll give you a wonderful idea what fast really means, for track racing anyway.
Agreed regards the talent thing but there were loads of drivers in club ICC and single seaters that could do a few laps, come in check the data and spot a few corners and point out where a 10th or so could be found, go back out and sure thing the lap time would be a 10th faster, impressive stuff but no F1 drive.
For an idea, Lambo G around 550 HP with non standard exhaust so around 350hp/ton and to most would feel scary fast, now take an F3 car, 450hp/ton and being only 500kg v 3000kg for the G would be in a different world and would scare 99% people to death if they could drive it and not wreak the engine.
Now take an ICC Kart, only 80kg and 50hp so 600 hp/ton, 3g cornering and 0-100 in 4 seconds top speed of 140 if you fancy it , with a 6 speed box, makes the F3 car feel slow. Now step up the the mental 250 E karts , 100 + HP and 90kg, 1100 hp/ton, these are now dangerous and not for the unskilled and about as close to F1 you'll get, i'd love to try one tho.
If anyone really fancies feeling what an Indy/F1 car would feel like give an ICC kart try, you might last a couple of laps 10 seconds off the pace before your body gives-up but it'll give you a wonderful idea what fast really means, for track racing anyway.
Agreed regards the talent thing but there were loads of drivers in club ICC and single seaters that could do a few laps, come in check the data and spot a few corners and point out where a 10th or so could be found, go back out and sure thing the lap time would be a 10th faster, impressive stuff but no F1 drive.
Truthfull... honestly....
No good at all, I lack the skills, experience and desire to drive anything at a level where I could even be competitive (Though I'd love to actually have a chance to be taught properly)
What I do have though is a complete lack of fear when sat in the suicide seat so I got into rally co-driving a few years before leaving the UK.
I've won a championship on the loose and another on tarmac in road rallying but budget constraints limited anything serious.
Now I have the budget, I live in a country that has almost no motorsport and certainly no rallying so I guess I'll never know!
No good at all, I lack the skills, experience and desire to drive anything at a level where I could even be competitive (Though I'd love to actually have a chance to be taught properly)
What I do have though is a complete lack of fear when sat in the suicide seat so I got into rally co-driving a few years before leaving the UK.
I've won a championship on the loose and another on tarmac in road rallying but budget constraints limited anything serious.
Now I have the budget, I live in a country that has almost no motorsport and certainly no rallying so I guess I'll never know!
I did an Arrive and Drive kart thing once with a mate. We both had never driven a car before so had to get used to the steering/modulating the acceleration/brakes during the session itself but were both car nuts. IIRC by the end of the 15 min session, I was lapping about 15 secs down from a typical days fastest lap and was 5 secs faster than my mate who was about 15kg lighter than me! Does this count?!
I worked at a Go-Kart track during 6th Form and early Uni days, got to see some real expert (self professed) drivers humiliated by non-driving partners, children and people without much interest in motorsport.
One of our mechanics was untouchable on the track, any kart, any conditions against any competition he would pass anyone, anywhere but when we (as the mechanics and instructors) entered an endurance race for fun he was hopeless- it wasn't "his" track that he knew so he lost the advantage!
I was heavier than most of them (Rugby player) so while I could keep up in customer karts I was never competitive, when we ran twin engined or 2-stroke karts I could take places off the others but as the karts got quicker so it sorted the men from the boys. When we finally got our hands on a couple of really fast race spec karts no-one was able to do more than 10laps before crawling out of them and puking.
Driving fast is one things, driving for a long time is another, racing other drivers while driving fast and for a full race distance is a physical and mental test, my hats off to those who can do it.
One of our mechanics was untouchable on the track, any kart, any conditions against any competition he would pass anyone, anywhere but when we (as the mechanics and instructors) entered an endurance race for fun he was hopeless- it wasn't "his" track that he knew so he lost the advantage!
I was heavier than most of them (Rugby player) so while I could keep up in customer karts I was never competitive, when we ran twin engined or 2-stroke karts I could take places off the others but as the karts got quicker so it sorted the men from the boys. When we finally got our hands on a couple of really fast race spec karts no-one was able to do more than 10laps before crawling out of them and puking.
Driving fast is one things, driving for a long time is another, racing other drivers while driving fast and for a full race distance is a physical and mental test, my hats off to those who can do it.
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