Be honest...how good are you?
Discussion
HustleRussell said:
Not good enough...
...yet
Still haven't won a championship race out of my 26 attempts. I have had 6 podiums. I've had a class win in a non-champ race, a team win at the Holly Birkett and I've won a few corporate karting events despite being up against about 50 <27 year old engineers, most of which were keen car/bike people, and many of which were at least 20kg lighter.
Forgot about this thread!...yet
Still haven't won a championship race out of my 26 attempts. I have had 6 podiums. I've had a class win in a non-champ race, a team win at the Holly Birkett and I've won a few corporate karting events despite being up against about 50 <27 year old engineers, most of which were keen car/bike people, and many of which were at least 20kg lighter.
UPDATE: Finally managed to win my first championship race on my 38th attempt in April this year. The second win has so far proven illusive though!
IforB said:
There's a yawning chasm between having a bit of talent and being someone who has honed that talent over many years.
There may well be the odd person on PH who may have the natural aptitude that Senna had, but without actually doing anything about it, it's irrelevant.
As for my driving skills, well, I can generally get to work and back without killing myself or anyone else, so they're good enough for that, but put me on a track and I'm fully aware that even in my most enthusiastic mode, then I'd be getting passed left right and centre.
I learnt humility on the motocross track, when I made a not very glorious comeback after 15 years away and found myself getting lapped by fearless 16 year olds a bit more regularly than I remembered ever happening in the past. When you go onto the track thinking "I hope I don't hurt myself" rather than "I'm going to win this" then you know you are past it!
This.There may well be the odd person on PH who may have the natural aptitude that Senna had, but without actually doing anything about it, it's irrelevant.
As for my driving skills, well, I can generally get to work and back without killing myself or anyone else, so they're good enough for that, but put me on a track and I'm fully aware that even in my most enthusiastic mode, then I'd be getting passed left right and centre.
I learnt humility on the motocross track, when I made a not very glorious comeback after 15 years away and found myself getting lapped by fearless 16 year olds a bit more regularly than I remembered ever happening in the past. When you go onto the track thinking "I hope I don't hurt myself" rather than "I'm going to win this" then you know you are past it!
I always wanted to be a racing driver. Had a modicum of ability when put in a kart, but didn't have the mindset to go anywhere with it.....and that was in my early to mid twenties. I then tried my hand at minimoto racing, which seemed like a really easy sport to get into. Yes, getting into it, fine, being any good? no not at all. So I then switched to motocross/enduro riding. Going through an empty field at full chat? no problem. Jumps, other riders, ruts etc? hopeless. Utterly woeful. Oh, and your fitness for that kind of stuff, you have to go out and build it.
I then made the transition to quads, which is where I've been for the past six years. At local level and given the right circumstances, I can compete. But the fast guys have the money, the ability built up over years, and the balls to run rings round me.
Still, it's better than being on the golf course, right?
Two of my sons took up motor racing in a big way from a young age, one making it to GP3, the other to high level UK karting and some club racing. They regularly have the argument about who is quicker and have on occasion gone out in the same kart/car and it is 90% of the time pretty close but the extra experience gained by racing for longer and to a higher level definitely have given the elder the edge. As for me? In karts I'm well off them and in road cars the difference is definitely large, but not overly so. I have done some classic racing and done reasonably well thanks to their friendly hints.
In the late 80's I had a go at 250 production bike racing. There were a couple of guys who disappeared into the distance on their RD350LC's (two classes, one grid).
First was Sean Emmett followed by his brother Jason.... I soon realised I didn't have the talent keep these guys insight.
First was Sean Emmett followed by his brother Jason.... I soon realised I didn't have the talent keep these guys insight.
I reckon most people, with the desire to succeed and enough cash and resources could partake in CLUB LEVEL sprints, hillclimbs or circuit racing and not disgrace themselves, and be middle-field. To reach the front though, and to have the balls to brake later than the guy in front and put your car in a vunerable position, has to come from within. That bit cannot be taught. However, to just drive acceptably fast on your own I think CAN be taught to most of us willing to learn. The hunger to win and the balls to push hard I think you have or you don't have, I feel good racing drivers are often good at other hand/eye co-ordination sports. And the older we get without trying it, I feel makes it less likely you could. I do club level stuff and have had some reasonable results and don't stick out like a sore thumb at the back using my bike-engine car. BUT I have driven some really quick stuff and been in a Radical SR4, frankly it would scare the s
t out of me actually racing one of those three-abreast pulling a couple of G in the corners. I know my limits and I don't really want to go any further!! I doubt I could have done it 20 years younger either.
t out of me actually racing one of those three-abreast pulling a couple of G in the corners. I know my limits and I don't really want to go any further!! I doubt I could have done it 20 years younger either. babelfish said:
In the late 80's I had a go at 250 production bike racing. There were a couple of guys who disappeared into the distance on their RD350LC's (two classes, one grid).
First was Sean Emmett followed by his brother Jason.... I soon realised I didn't have the talent keep these guys insight.
same story - 1990-91 i raced a 350LC at Brands, one wet race finished 7 of about 15, second race a dry line appeared but i couldn't keep to it so got lapped. I sat on the grid with Jason Emmett, never saw him again. Had fun though, till the costs went up. Being fast on the road was one thing, but being on the limit all the time was too difficult.First was Sean Emmett followed by his brother Jason.... I soon realised I didn't have the talent keep these guys insight.
I can't talk about racing other drivers but for outright speed and car handling my experience, as i/c a police driving school, is that there are two types of good driver: those with natural ability and those who will dedicate them selves to improving.
Those with natural ability will retain that ability throughout their life but those who have to work at it have to work at it or else standards drop.
The late Peter Gethin took us all out on the roads of East Sussex in a Sierra 4x4. It is the most terrified I've ever been in a car and I've been driven by some talentless idiots. His reactions were tremendously quick and, as he proved in a four wheel drift over a rise where he used the negative G to stabilise the car, he seemed to be able to sense where every wheel was and what it was doing.
Very, very impressive.
Another time I was asked to view a PC who was on surveillance squad. She was tremendous and that was after just three weeks on an advanced course. She showed a lot of what Gethin showed but with some consideration for safety (that didn't stop her writing off three cars in her surveillance career though.)
When I was on a special operations group we had a driver who lacked the natural ability these two showed but he used to go through his drives afterwards to see if he could improve. He was his biggest critic but he was the only driver I rode with who got a score of 100 (in the old days) on his advanced tests. He was brilliant. He once turned a 3-litre Transit around, 180 degrees, to avoid a car that had shot the lights despite us being on blues and twos. We ended up going backwards at 50+ with the tyres doing 100. Yet, at the time, I felt completely safe.
If you are one of those irritating people with oddles of natural ability you still have to work at it to get the best from your abilities.
I, as you have probably guessed, am not a natural and, to my shame, I am not one of those willing to work at driving to the level the 100 chap was. If I do something wrong or there is a moment of danger I then try and work out what caused the incident and how I can improve but that's about it.
It takes me miles and miles before I become 'comfortable' in a different car and so can, or at least am willing to, push it. I find it frustrating when a driver just gets it, wiggles the gearlever, adjusts the mirrors and then goes flat out. I just can't do it.
Those with natural ability will retain that ability throughout their life but those who have to work at it have to work at it or else standards drop.
The late Peter Gethin took us all out on the roads of East Sussex in a Sierra 4x4. It is the most terrified I've ever been in a car and I've been driven by some talentless idiots. His reactions were tremendously quick and, as he proved in a four wheel drift over a rise where he used the negative G to stabilise the car, he seemed to be able to sense where every wheel was and what it was doing.
Very, very impressive.
Another time I was asked to view a PC who was on surveillance squad. She was tremendous and that was after just three weeks on an advanced course. She showed a lot of what Gethin showed but with some consideration for safety (that didn't stop her writing off three cars in her surveillance career though.)
When I was on a special operations group we had a driver who lacked the natural ability these two showed but he used to go through his drives afterwards to see if he could improve. He was his biggest critic but he was the only driver I rode with who got a score of 100 (in the old days) on his advanced tests. He was brilliant. He once turned a 3-litre Transit around, 180 degrees, to avoid a car that had shot the lights despite us being on blues and twos. We ended up going backwards at 50+ with the tyres doing 100. Yet, at the time, I felt completely safe.
If you are one of those irritating people with oddles of natural ability you still have to work at it to get the best from your abilities.
I, as you have probably guessed, am not a natural and, to my shame, I am not one of those willing to work at driving to the level the 100 chap was. If I do something wrong or there is a moment of danger I then try and work out what caused the incident and how I can improve but that's about it.
It takes me miles and miles before I become 'comfortable' in a different car and so can, or at least am willing to, push it. I find it frustrating when a driver just gets it, wiggles the gearlever, adjusts the mirrors and then goes flat out. I just can't do it.
I remember having a similar discussion, to this thread, when I did my ARD's course at Thruxton. The instructor I was speaking with was also an F3000 driver and said how some other sportsmen had tested cars recently. He agreed that anyone who practiced their hand eye coordination would have an advantage behind the wheel, but practice, so that taught responses were second nature, was something most could learn. Racing instinct however, was something within. He also said that women tend to be better students. He said they listen to instruction more and generally their ego doesn't get in the way, as it often did with some men.
I was lucky enough to do a few laps with Tiff Needell last year. Being able to witness high speed car control first hand, was a real eye opener.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcbDdcN3bF0
I was lucky enough to do a few laps with Tiff Needell last year. Being able to witness high speed car control first hand, was a real eye opener.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcbDdcN3bF0
To the OP, if you feel things changing at 38, wait until you get in your 50’s 
Some have talent some don’t, if you do, to be “up there” you need to get you bum in the seat as much as possible without this, you will not be up there, no substitute for experience, sadly this does cost so a typical catch 22 situation.
I was VERY fortunate in my 20’s to have a great car and some top class tuition, both a must IMO to be Quick. I was, but gave up a chance to go further due to not wanting to change my car.
When I hit 50, I So wanted to have another go, as I wanted to see if this “The older I get, the faster I was” was true or not, I am glad to say, now I have had around 500 stage miles of experience in the last couple of years, I am Almost as fast as I was, given the right piece of road that I know, I would say As fast, throw in some new bits, and the reactions to unfamiliarity are not as good, however, the Fun this time around is much more.
No matter how good you think you are, IMO, there is always someone that little bit quicker on the day, trying to match them is part of the fun.
Some have talent some don’t, if you do, to be “up there” you need to get you bum in the seat as much as possible without this, you will not be up there, no substitute for experience, sadly this does cost so a typical catch 22 situation.
I was VERY fortunate in my 20’s to have a great car and some top class tuition, both a must IMO to be Quick. I was, but gave up a chance to go further due to not wanting to change my car.
When I hit 50, I So wanted to have another go, as I wanted to see if this “The older I get, the faster I was” was true or not, I am glad to say, now I have had around 500 stage miles of experience in the last couple of years, I am Almost as fast as I was, given the right piece of road that I know, I would say As fast, throw in some new bits, and the reactions to unfamiliarity are not as good, however, the Fun this time around is much more.
No matter how good you think you are, IMO, there is always someone that little bit quicker on the day, trying to match them is part of the fun.
Mark A S said:
Some have talent some don’t, if you do, to be “up there” you need to get you bum in the seat as much as possible without this, you will not be up there, no substitute for experience, sadly this does cost so a typical catch 22 situation.
This ^ is ture. You can have all the talent in the world but if you don't practice forget it.
To all those people who drive fast on the road and or trackdays. You have no idea how committed you need to be to do well racing. Even at club level the top boy's leave nothing on the table.
I thought like I would walk it. Got a shock when I qualified 9th for my first race 1.8 seconds off pole. Didn't even see which way the leaders went in that first race, or the second, or the third.
I did a test at Brands last year, when there were some of the front running e30 BMW production guys there also. I was in a 2.5 and they, their 320's. I figured that if I followed them round I could pick up their lines, braking points etc.
Erm, it didn't quite work out as I had planned.
Erm, it didn't quite work out as I had planned.
probably better than joe public i'd say, seem to do ok on trackdays and little karts. but crap compared to anyone with proper skills, even at a fairly low level.
went karting with the willliams F1 team in sao paulo a few years back - some of the mechanics and engineers were very quick and consistent and just seemed to manage to find the grip that i couldn't - not to mention barichello...
i also went out in a passenger run with marko martin in wales, just a demo / exhibition. having it sideways three corners in advance on gravel throughout the whole stage rather clearly demonstrated the difference between those with serious talent and a normal driver.
went karting with the willliams F1 team in sao paulo a few years back - some of the mechanics and engineers were very quick and consistent and just seemed to manage to find the grip that i couldn't - not to mention barichello...
i also went out in a passenger run with marko martin in wales, just a demo / exhibition. having it sideways three corners in advance on gravel throughout the whole stage rather clearly demonstrated the difference between those with serious talent and a normal driver.
If you think you are quick or brave or both have a watch of this.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jLUf6KwosOQ
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jLUf6KwosOQ
Quick in comparison to average Joe, but not never got any further from karting. Got a few club race wins in my last year or two of karting 10-ish years ago.
Still think about trying racing now and then but not decided on anything, all the options look expensive!!!
I have taken the old race kart out again a couple times a year or two back though, even more fun than I remembered!
Still think about trying racing now and then but not decided on anything, all the options look expensive!!!
I have taken the old race kart out again a couple times a year or two back though, even more fun than I remembered!
2 years ago i joined my local motor club aged 20 and ive had a few 1st's in class in autotests and normally in the top half of the results, last year i did some sprints and hill climbs never finished last which im happy about as i always have the least powerful car there (70bhp 35 year old mini). last year my efforts got me first in class in clubs speed championship, this years has started well with a 2nd and a 1st in class at the first 2 events. ive also done some historic/road rallies in the mini and in my crappy 205 and done well considering
but the urge is too much and im currently building a 1600 peugeot 309 to go stage rallying next year, i'll probably be rubbish but you dont know if you dont try
but the urge is too much and im currently building a 1600 peugeot 309 to go stage rallying next year, i'll probably be rubbish but you dont know if you dont try
I'm pretty rubbish and have resigned myself to the fact that I will continue to be whilst the family are young. You need seat time to get better and that's not gonna happen for me until my kids are grown up.
Having had a proper driver in my car I know I'm 1.5-2 seconds a lap off the ultimate pace of the car and it would take me a lot of time in the car to find 75% of that. Not sure I'd ever find the last few tenths though.
Dan
Having had a proper driver in my car I know I'm 1.5-2 seconds a lap off the ultimate pace of the car and it would take me a lot of time in the car to find 75% of that. Not sure I'd ever find the last few tenths though.
Dan
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