Be honest...how good are you?
Discussion
having the 'talent' imho is the easy bit (good inner ear & a fine sense of touch will give you that)
having big kahouna's will help, although without the above, you'll be dead.
The hard bit is the focus, desire & commitment (both in & out of the car) ...& as we're all here typing rather driving, i'd suggest we dont have 'it'
having big kahouna's will help, although without the above, you'll be dead.
The hard bit is the focus, desire & commitment (both in & out of the car) ...& as we're all here typing rather driving, i'd suggest we dont have 'it'
Scuffers said:
Ahonen said:
I'll also dispute the comment from the person who said that in slow corners most people can be as quick as the pro. The two chicanes at Zolder are classics for that. I've worked with drvers who can be within a couple of tenths of the pros through the first sector and lose it all, and much more, through the two slow chicanes.
agree with that, it's usually the fast strights into tight/technical slow corners that's the real separator, where absolute accuracy/commitment is required.
I was fortunate enough to do a session using a proper F1 simulator (not a publicly-accessible toy) at Barcelona. At the end my telemetry was compared to the current F1 driver - the two places I lost the most time were a) Turn 9 - blind and fast, requiring massive commitment which I couldn't summon and b) the slow final chicane out onto the straight. A good friend of mine, always talented in karts and Gran Turismo, came out top, and was actually quicker than a big name sportscar driver up until Turn 9, at which point he eased off because he kept throwing the car into the scenery and wanted to set a time. Clearly talented, I wonder what he could achieve with money and a chance.superkartracer said:
Thing is most people won't even have the slightest idea what race cars feel like to drive ( single seaters ) so they think driving a road car around gives them reason to think they are good drivers.
Agree with that...Hardest think I have ever tried to drive was a 250E gearbox kart, 10 laps of Cadwell and I was finished!
seriously, they are just plan scary/physical/hard, quite apart from being somewhat slower (that the rest around me), the effect it had on me physically was just horrible, I was bruised to death, I was struggling to maintain vision (eyeballs were resonating), and my arms were fubared...
that experience really does show that we are all too old/too un-fit to race something like karts well.
I have driven/raced quite a few different cars now, and the 250E was by far and away the hardest, nothing else has come close to that level of effort/commitment required.
superkartracer said:
Thing is most people won't even have the slightest idea what race cars feel like to drive ( single seaters ) so they think driving a road car around gives them reason to think they are good drivers.
For an idea, Lambo G around 550 HP with non standard exhaust so around 350hp/ton and to most would feel scary fast, now take an F3 car, 450hp/ton and being only 500kg v 3000kg for the G would be in a different world and would scare 99% people to death if they could drive it and not wreak the engine.
Now take an ICC Kart, only 80kg and 50hp so 600 hp/ton, 3g cornering and 0-100 in 4 seconds top speed of 140 if you fancy it , with a 6 speed box, makes the F3 car feel slow. Now step up the the mental 250 E karts , 100 + HP and 90kg, 1100 hp/ton, these are now dangerous and not for the unskilled and about as close to F1 you'll get, i'd love to try one tho.
If anyone really fancies feeling what an Indy/F1 car would feel like give an ICC kart try, you might last a couple of laps 10 seconds off the pace before your body gives-up but it'll give you a wonderful idea what fast really means, for track racing anyway.
Agreed regards the talent thing but there were loads of drivers in club ICC and single seaters that could do a few laps, come in check the data and spot a few corners and point out where a 10th or so could be found, go back out and sure thing the lap time would be a 10th faster, impressive stuff but no F1 drive.
Mmm. For one thing your maths is massively flawed.For an idea, Lambo G around 550 HP with non standard exhaust so around 350hp/ton and to most would feel scary fast, now take an F3 car, 450hp/ton and being only 500kg v 3000kg for the G would be in a different world and would scare 99% people to death if they could drive it and not wreak the engine.
Now take an ICC Kart, only 80kg and 50hp so 600 hp/ton, 3g cornering and 0-100 in 4 seconds top speed of 140 if you fancy it , with a 6 speed box, makes the F3 car feel slow. Now step up the the mental 250 E karts , 100 + HP and 90kg, 1100 hp/ton, these are now dangerous and not for the unskilled and about as close to F1 you'll get, i'd love to try one tho.
If anyone really fancies feeling what an Indy/F1 car would feel like give an ICC kart try, you might last a couple of laps 10 seconds off the pace before your body gives-up but it'll give you a wonderful idea what fast really means, for track racing anyway.
Agreed regards the talent thing but there were loads of drivers in club ICC and single seaters that could do a few laps, come in check the data and spot a few corners and point out where a 10th or so could be found, go back out and sure thing the lap time would be a 10th faster, impressive stuff but no F1 drive.
The Lambo weighs 3000Kg does it? That would be 183bhp/tonne, if it were true. I would suggest it weighs about 1/2 that with a driver on board, so about, as you say 350bhp/tonne though likely more than that.
An F3 car has a weight of about 550Kg with driver. With about 220bhp that is about 400bhp/tonne.
As for the kart, with a driver you have a class weight of around 175/180 kg, so with 50bhp you get ratio of no more than 285bhp/tonne, probably less.
Given that a decent F3 car has far more aero grip than any ICC kart, it will also be much quicker on a proper race track.
As for any kart giving you an idea what and F1 or Indie car feels like. I'm sorry but that is a joke.
Karts are great fun, give great racing and demand a lot of ability to master but they do not compare with a decent SS racing car.
Edited to add:
Just found some recent times. It seems a 250 Superkart is 3 or 4 seconds slower than a club F3 car on Silverstone National and about 10 seconds slower on Snet 300. Not sure where that would put an ICC but presumably significantly slower again?
Don't get me wrong, Karts are great machines but let's not exaggerate too much, eh?
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 29th May 15:10
Opps thats was lbs, so 1450kg ish, so the 350hp/ton is correct.
You have the totally wrong end of the stick..
Driving an ICC kart on a short track gives you the same experience as driving the more powerful SS's on the full tracks, the speed the corners come at you, the braking and gear changes involved, it's just scaled down. You go into corners @ 100mph hit the brakes down 5 gears and turn-in in about 1-2 seconds going from 100 to 30mph, they are awesome driving machines and pull 3g in the bends and braking it like hitting a wall.
Of course an F3 car would be faster on a full-scale track and the whole experience in the kart would be far far slower and quite pointless... so unsure why you're comparing lap times!?
Shifter karts are used for training in the US -
Paul Tracy says, "It's the closest thing on four wheels to Indy-car racing, something I do in the off-season to keep my reflexes sharp"
Scott Speed..."Driving a Shifter Kart around a go-kart track is very similar to driving a Formula 1 car around a track...it's just on a bigger scale"
P.S. i'd be quite concerned a 250k state of the art F3 car could be matched by a kart costing 8k
but yes it seems you thought i was taking about karts on full circuits.., if you read my post you'll see i looked at F3000 cars to *match* the ICC experience on full tracks, sadly no place to race them in the UK bar the odd formula libre event oh and the fact the old 92D raynard tub i had would shatter at some point, so binned the idea..
You have the totally wrong end of the stick..
Driving an ICC kart on a short track gives you the same experience as driving the more powerful SS's on the full tracks, the speed the corners come at you, the braking and gear changes involved, it's just scaled down. You go into corners @ 100mph hit the brakes down 5 gears and turn-in in about 1-2 seconds going from 100 to 30mph, they are awesome driving machines and pull 3g in the bends and braking it like hitting a wall.
Of course an F3 car would be faster on a full-scale track and the whole experience in the kart would be far far slower and quite pointless... so unsure why you're comparing lap times!?
Shifter karts are used for training in the US -
Paul Tracy says, "It's the closest thing on four wheels to Indy-car racing, something I do in the off-season to keep my reflexes sharp"
Scott Speed..."Driving a Shifter Kart around a go-kart track is very similar to driving a Formula 1 car around a track...it's just on a bigger scale"
P.S. i'd be quite concerned a 250k state of the art F3 car could be matched by a kart costing 8k
but yes it seems you thought i was taking about karts on full circuits.., if you read my post you'll see i looked at F3000 cars to *match* the ICC experience on full tracks, sadly no place to race them in the UK bar the odd formula libre event oh and the fact the old 92D raynard tub i had would shatter at some point, so binned the idea.. Edited by superkartracer on Tuesday 29th May 15:36
superkartracer said:
Opps thats was lbs, so 1450kg ish, so the 350hp/ton is correct.
You have the totally wrong end of the stick..
Driving an ICC kart on a short track gives you the same experience as driving the more powerful SS's on the full tracks, the speed the corners come at you, the braking and gear changes involved, it's just scaled down. You go into corners @ 100mph hit the brakes down 5 gears and turn-in in about 1-2 seconds going from 100 to 30mph, they are awesome driving machines and pull 3g in the bends and braking it like hitting a wall.
Of course an F3 car would be faster on a full-scale track and the whole experience in the kart would be far far slower and quite pointless... so unsure why you're comparing lap times!?
Shifter karts are used for training in the US -
Paul Tracy says, "It's the closest thing on four wheels to Indy-car racing, something I do in the off-season to keep my reflexes sharp"
Scott Speed..."Driving a Shifter Kart around a go-kart track is very similar to driving a Formula 1 car around a track...it's just on a bigger scale"
P.S. i'd be quite concerned a 250k state of the art F3 car could be matched by a kart costing 8k but yes it seems you thought i was taking about karts on full circuits.., if you read my post you'll see i looked at F3000 cars to *match* the ICC experience on full tracks, sadly no place to race them in the UK bar the odd formula libre event oh and the fact the old 92D raynard tub i had would shatter at some point, so binned the idea..
To be fair looking on tsl timing the division 1 Superkarts are on the same pace as formula Renault uk, so I'd say they give a pretty good idea of the speeds of a single seater!, oh and they're around 5 seconds a lap quicker per lap than a gt3 carYou have the totally wrong end of the stick..
Driving an ICC kart on a short track gives you the same experience as driving the more powerful SS's on the full tracks, the speed the corners come at you, the braking and gear changes involved, it's just scaled down. You go into corners @ 100mph hit the brakes down 5 gears and turn-in in about 1-2 seconds going from 100 to 30mph, they are awesome driving machines and pull 3g in the bends and braking it like hitting a wall.
Of course an F3 car would be faster on a full-scale track and the whole experience in the kart would be far far slower and quite pointless... so unsure why you're comparing lap times!?
Shifter karts are used for training in the US -
Paul Tracy says, "It's the closest thing on four wheels to Indy-car racing, something I do in the off-season to keep my reflexes sharp"
Scott Speed..."Driving a Shifter Kart around a go-kart track is very similar to driving a Formula 1 car around a track...it's just on a bigger scale"
P.S. i'd be quite concerned a 250k state of the art F3 car could be matched by a kart costing 8k
but yes it seems you thought i was taking about karts on full circuits.., if you read my post you'll see i looked at F3000 cars to *match* the ICC experience on full tracks, sadly no place to race them in the UK bar the odd formula libre event oh and the fact the old 92D raynard tub i had would shatter at some point, so binned the idea.. Edited by superkartracer on Tuesday 29th May 15:36
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dybBy7aR_WU
Shenington, they hit 100mph as they enter the corner after the main straight inches apart , i span backpacks here in the rain @ over 90, scary stuff
Shenington, they hit 100mph as they enter the corner after the main straight inches apart , i span backpacks here in the rain @ over 90, scary stuff
37chevy said:
To be fair looking on tsl timing the division 1 Superkarts are on the same pace as formula Renault uk, so I'd say they give a pretty good idea of the speeds of a single seater!, oh and they're around 5 seconds a lap quicker per lap than a gt3 car
But you could read a book going down the straights, you need to be on short tracks for the proper experience regards fast SS ^^, you barley have time to breath!.I started motor racing last year and racing is much more challenging than I expected - physically and mentally. Having been almost-pro good at one other sport (football) I thought I had the right stuff.
I must say, I am finding it difficult - it's not like any other sport I have done. Now I know how difficult racing is, and how nervous I am before every race (even quali!) I can't believe how cool some of the F1 drivers are. I'm in awe of that. I suspect if I had spent every single waking hour of my childhood racing karts, and then progressed through single seaters, GP3 or whatever, I still think being a top F1 driver is an utterly amazing achievement for a sportsman.
I don't think you can appreciate how difficult motor racing is until you have done it - it's certainly a hundred million miles away from track days.
I must say, I am finding it difficult - it's not like any other sport I have done. Now I know how difficult racing is, and how nervous I am before every race (even quali!) I can't believe how cool some of the F1 drivers are. I'm in awe of that. I suspect if I had spent every single waking hour of my childhood racing karts, and then progressed through single seaters, GP3 or whatever, I still think being a top F1 driver is an utterly amazing achievement for a sportsman.
I don't think you can appreciate how difficult motor racing is until you have done it - it's certainly a hundred million miles away from track days.
superkartracer said:
But you could read a book going down the straights, you need to be on short tracks for the proper experience regards fast SS ^^, you barley have time to breath!.
Dunno if I want to be reading a book doing 160mph in a division 1 kart!Especially at places like Caldwell or oulton!
37chevy said:
superkartracer said:
But you could read a book going down the straights, you need to be on short tracks for the proper experience regards fast SS ^^, you barley have time to breath!.
Dunno if I want to be reading a book doing 160mph in a division 1 kart!Especially at places like Caldwell or oulton!
Why don't you email ian ian.rushforth@superkart.org.uk and ask him ( i'm a member of the club ) 180 mph you say? he could also sort you a test 
http://www.superkart.org.uk/Getting_Started.htm#Th...
Division 1 Superkarts -
Performance Facts :- Top Speed is 140mph - 0 - 60mph in 2.5secs Power Output = 85 to 95bhp
From memory Div 1 hit around 140 around cadwell, ICC around 110 ish
http://www.superkart.org.uk/Getting_Started.htm#Th...
Division 1 Superkarts -
Performance Facts :- Top Speed is 140mph - 0 - 60mph in 2.5secs Power Output = 85 to 95bhp
From memory Div 1 hit around 140 around cadwell, ICC around 110 ish
superkartracer said:
Why don't you email ian ian.rushforth@superkart.org.uk and ask him ( i'm a member of the club ) 180 mph you say? he could also sort you a test
http://www.superkart.org.uk/Getting_Started.htm#Th...
Division 1 Superkarts -
Performance Facts :- Top Speed is 140mph - 0 - 60mph in 2.5secs Power Output = 85 to 95bhp
From memory Div 1 hit around 140 around cadwell, ICC around 110 ish
why? I'm way too old/fat for karts!http://www.superkart.org.uk/Getting_Started.htm#Th...
Division 1 Superkarts -
Performance Facts :- Top Speed is 140mph - 0 - 60mph in 2.5secs Power Output = 85 to 95bhp
From memory Div 1 hit around 140 around cadwell, ICC around 110 ish
180 wise could well have been Kmh?
I agree with SKR. I have driven lots of very different machines and you can get to grips with most within a lap or two. A superkart is the only thing that I felt I needed much more time to get to grips with.
One of my friends has won lots of national championships but the one I most respect him for is the long course 250 championship.
One of my friends has won lots of national championships but the one I most respect him for is the long course 250 championship.
I used to be a gopher for a Formula Opel Euroseries team back in the early 90's and we ran drivers like Jan Magnussen, Jason Watt (who won the championship after changing teams) and Richard Westbrook. Richard was always an extremely gifted driver but lacked the budget to be able to exploit his talent to the full. I have no doubt that given the budget/opportunity he could have made it in F1. I wouldn't feel too bad for him though as he's a successful GT race driver nowadays. It just goes to show that no matter how gifted you are, as a driver, unless you have the cash to back it up you'll struggle against the mediocre that do.
Even back then I had a passion for cars/motorsport and used to day dream about competing in a BMW touring car. I didn't have the talent or the cash though. I had to wait till my kids had grown up and the divorce settlement was a distant memory. It was then that I found that actually driving a circuit was nothing like I had imagined. (my only experience to that day had been barreling around Spa in the teams Austin Montego countryman!) If I'm honest, I was more than a little intimidated by the other cars/drivers and the shortcomings of my car and my ability (or lack of) were made all the more obvious. In the end I had to leave my ego at home and ask for some advice/instruction. Once I did that I was able to actually enjoy track time all the more. I also realised that sitting at home on the sofa watching the BTCC and thinking I could do better, was far easier than getting out there and trying.
A couple of years later and I am still doing track days and sprint events. In truth I am probably an average driver but I have fun and there is nothing I would rather spend my money on. I might not drink, smoke or party but I'd much rather be out on a track. In sprints I compete against myself and on track-days, I can still have a bit of a day dream about what might have been. If I was younger, thinner, richer and more talented I would be a racing driver, but if my sister had balls she'd be my brother.
Even back then I had a passion for cars/motorsport and used to day dream about competing in a BMW touring car. I didn't have the talent or the cash though. I had to wait till my kids had grown up and the divorce settlement was a distant memory. It was then that I found that actually driving a circuit was nothing like I had imagined. (my only experience to that day had been barreling around Spa in the teams Austin Montego countryman!) If I'm honest, I was more than a little intimidated by the other cars/drivers and the shortcomings of my car and my ability (or lack of) were made all the more obvious. In the end I had to leave my ego at home and ask for some advice/instruction. Once I did that I was able to actually enjoy track time all the more. I also realised that sitting at home on the sofa watching the BTCC and thinking I could do better, was far easier than getting out there and trying.
A couple of years later and I am still doing track days and sprint events. In truth I am probably an average driver but I have fun and there is nothing I would rather spend my money on. I might not drink, smoke or party but I'd much rather be out on a track. In sprints I compete against myself and on track-days, I can still have a bit of a day dream about what might have been. If I was younger, thinner, richer and more talented I would be a racing driver, but if my sister had balls she'd be my brother.
Sorry to bump my own thread but found this in the YouTube thread and thought it illustrates my original point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paClRcT39HY
So do you, as I do, think it's purely having the balls to go right up to and over the limit rather than technical ability that seperates most of us from the professionals?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=paClRcT39HY
So do you, as I do, think it's purely having the balls to go right up to and over the limit rather than technical ability that seperates most of us from the professionals?
There's a yawning chasm between having a bit of talent and being someone who has honed that talent over many years.
There may well be the odd person on PH who may have the natural aptitude that Senna had, but without actually doing anything about it, it's irrelevant.
As for my driving skills, well, I can generally get to work and back without killing myself or anyone else, so they're good enough for that, but put me on a track and I'm fully aware that even in my most enthusiastic mode, then I'd be getting passed left right and centre.
I learnt humility on the motocross track, when I made a not very glorious comeback after 15 years away and found myself getting lapped by fearless 16 year olds a bit more regularly than I remembered ever happening in the past. When you go onto the track thinking "I hope I don't hurt myself" rather than "I'm going to win this" then you know you are past it!
There may well be the odd person on PH who may have the natural aptitude that Senna had, but without actually doing anything about it, it's irrelevant.
As for my driving skills, well, I can generally get to work and back without killing myself or anyone else, so they're good enough for that, but put me on a track and I'm fully aware that even in my most enthusiastic mode, then I'd be getting passed left right and centre.
I learnt humility on the motocross track, when I made a not very glorious comeback after 15 years away and found myself getting lapped by fearless 16 year olds a bit more regularly than I remembered ever happening in the past. When you go onto the track thinking "I hope I don't hurt myself" rather than "I'm going to win this" then you know you are past it!
An interesting test is to have a professiona driver tkae your car aound the track with you as a passenger.
I have a guy who instructs me periodically and is a professional DTM driver. It is a complete revelation how smooth,skilful and aware he is in the same car,same conditions and on the same track.
I am not terrible but am not fast either compared to a very skilled driver. Also I do not practice enough. That's being said,even if I practiced daily I would never reach the skill level of even a midrange professional driver.
I just drive to the limit of my comfort,clearly less than the limits of the car.
I have a guy who instructs me periodically and is a professional DTM driver. It is a complete revelation how smooth,skilful and aware he is in the same car,same conditions and on the same track.
I am not terrible but am not fast either compared to a very skilled driver. Also I do not practice enough. That's being said,even if I practiced daily I would never reach the skill level of even a midrange professional driver.
I just drive to the limit of my comfort,clearly less than the limits of the car.
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