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longshot
922 posts
67 months
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It's estimated that MSC has donated around $50million to charities during his life.
Does that balance out his karma?
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mattikake
4,025 posts
68 months
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^ lol I dunno. Imagine how many innocent ants have been killed because some kid was playing with his matchbox cars and thinking it was ok to squash the ants because he though he was better than them?
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CiderwithCerbie
1,419 posts
136 months
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longshot said: It's estimated that MSC has donated around $50million to charities during his life.
Does that balance out his karma? That would depend on the true spiritual impulse behind the gifts; 1. Genuine care for the needs of other human beings? 2. Selflessness & generosity? 2. Good PR and avoiding a bigger tax bill? Any views on which is more likely? PS Cosicave - yes on it goes, but it appears to have flushed out a few more with our perception of Mr. Schumacher. PPS JohnnyMac, don't get riled so easily, that's the short route to hell... and a ban. I am much better since I started my deep breathing and relaxation classes  PPS Anyone who does not know that the all human beings are important regardless of their contribution and level of qualifications is missing something. Self-importance however - well isn't that why this thread kicked off in the first place?
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CiderwithCerbie
1,419 posts
136 months
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vonuber said: Schumacher's biggest mistake, it seems, is not dying in the 2006 season. I disagree, his biggest mistake was not dying in the 1999 season... Whoops!
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MGJohn
6,657 posts
52 months
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Nah, won't bother with another Voodoo cut-out on Herr Schumacher. Gonna do a cardboard cut-out of Dolmio man and buy some stainless steel pins this time. Satisfaction Guaranteed. Be very afraid, now "The sign" has been shifted off Schumacher, expect a severe change of luck to a certain driver of a certain red car ... no names no pack drill. Can you tell who it is yet? Red Car ... Dolmio ... that's five clues. Give you three guesses. Muhahahahahahah ad. infi-wossname. I sometimes wonder if MGJohn is the right man for the job. ... .
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SRT77
509 posts
87 months
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mattikake said: b  ks. Watch some footage. Any will do. Senna moved first, THEN Prost. Senna also stopped moving once he looked in his mirrors and realised what Prost was doing. How can you deliberately push someone towards a wall if you back out of it when you realise what is going on? It was dangerous/wreckless, no doubt. But it was not malicious. Which is of course a totally different situation with the Schmacker on Barrichello. Rubens moved first, then the Schmack attempted use the wall to stop the pass. The whole time Schmacker is looking in his mirrors. He knew exactly where Rubens was and what he was doing. Just like with Hill in '94, and Villeneuve in '97... . Different world. So again we can see as I stated earlier - to be a Schumi fan it is a requirement that you do not understand motor-racing. And what would you have said if Scumacher had pretended not to notice where Barri was? Doh! of course he was looking in his mirrors. No different to what a lot of other drivers have done. Very grown up post by the way.
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mattikake
4,025 posts
68 months
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SRT77 said: mattikake said: b ks. Watch some footage. Any will do. Senna moved first, THEN Prost. Senna also stopped moving once he looked in his mirrors and realised what Prost was doing. How can you deliberately push someone towards a wall if you back out of it when you realise what is going on? It was dangerous/wreckless, no doubt. But it was not malicious. Which is of course a totally different situation with the Schmacker on Barrichello. Rubens moved first, then the Schmack attempted use the wall to stop the pass. The whole time Schmacker is looking in his mirrors. He knew exactly where Rubens was and what he was doing. Just like with Hill in '94, and Villeneuve in '97... . Different world. So again we can see as I stated earlier - to be a Schumi fan it is a requirement that you do not understand motor-racing. And what would you have said if Scumacher had pretended not to notice where Barri was? Doh! of course he was looking in his mirrors. No different to what a lot of other drivers have done. Very grown up post by the way. Using "What if's" now? That's desperate. Schumi didn't pretend not to look. He didn't not deliberately use the wall to attempt to stop an overtake. He didn't not mean it. And in true Schumi style, once the world had decided he was wrong, he was incapable of apologising properly like a fair sportsman. His fans followed suit and can't see wrong with it either. I'm so glad Vettel is reversing the damage Schumi has done to the general perception of the German attitude. I have many German friends and have been to Germany several times. I find them all to be happy and easily amused people who love the English attitude, sportsmanship and humour, who seem to be genuinely interested in your interpretation of the world. Boris Becker would be a good example. Where Schumi mutated from I have no idea.
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StuartMcKay
1,117 posts
91 months
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AreOut said: Did you edit that one yourself and choose to completely ignore the unedited clip I posted that shows what ACTUALLY happened. Please feel free to keep digging.........  lol
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AreOut
327 posts
30 months
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umm no, and this one is apparently from 2008...
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Mike 402
28 posts
29 months
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For anyone to say that his biggest mistake was not dying is disgusting whether meant in jest or being serious.
Would this debate even be happening if he was English? I think not. Everyone would be raving about how amazing he is. Let us not forget Hamilton is also a cheat, yet I don't see anyone abusing him is this way. He race's hard but surely thats what we all want to see.
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MGJohn
6,657 posts
52 months
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Mike 402 said: For anyone to say that his biggest mistake was not dying is disgusting whether meant in jest or being serious.
Would this debate even be happening if he was English? I think not. Everyone would be raving about how amazing he is. Let us not forget Hamilton is also a cheat, yet I don't see anyone abusing him is this way. He race's hard but surely thats what we all want to see. Order, order. Stop talking reason and sense. Definitely out of order.
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vonuber
3,899 posts
34 months
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mattikake said: I'm so glad Vettel is reversing the damage Schumi has done to the general perception of the German attitude. I have many German friends and have been to Germany several times. I find them all to be happy and easily amused people who love the English attitude, sportsmanship and humour, who seem to be genuinely interested in your interpretation of the world. Boris Becker would be a good example. Where Schumi mutated from I have no idea. Man meets Germans and finds them normal and not represenative of one peson they have seen on TV screens and read about from myopically biased media reports shocker. I'll pass the message on; they will be grateful to know that you have seen the light.
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StuartMcKay
1,117 posts
91 months
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AreOut said: umm no, and this one is apparently from 2008... What difference does the fact that it was edited and uploaded in 2008 make? It's edited to make Schumacher look a when infact that simply wasn't the case. It shows a sorry looking Larini but happily misses the happy and smilng Larini lifting his trophy in a joyful way......funny that.......  Unfortunately, this nonsense fuels the haters who choose to believe that this is what happened even after they have been shown an unedited clip that was broadcast live in 94. 
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Alfanatic
5,991 posts
88 months
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mattikake said: b ks. Watch some footage. Any will do. Senna moved first, THEN Prost. Senna also stopped moving once he looked in his mirrors and realised what Prost was doing. How can you deliberately push someone towards a wall if you back out of it when you realise what is going on? It was dangerous/wreckless, no doubt. But it was not malicious. You're the first person I've come across on a planet full of people who have seen the incident who has drawn that conclusion. EDIT: And since my version comes from Prost himself, a man who I'm pretty sure has a reasonable understanding on motorsport, and who's opinion is the only one that matters when discussing why he did not move over for Senna at Suzuka, whether or not Senna actually was being malicious or incompetent is moot. It's what Prost concluded that counts.
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mattikake
4,025 posts
68 months
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Alfanatic said: mattikake said: b ks. Watch some footage. Any will do. Senna moved first, THEN Prost. Senna also stopped moving once he looked in his mirrors and realised what Prost was doing. How can you deliberately push someone towards a wall if you back out of it when you realise what is going on? It was dangerous/wreckless, no doubt. But it was not malicious. You're the first person I've come across on a planet full of people who have seen the incident who has drawn that conclusion. Stop hanging around in playgrounds then.  Alfanatic said: EDIT: And since my version comes from Prost himself, a man who I'm pretty sure has a reasonable understanding on motorsport, and who's opinion is the only one that matters when discussing why he did not move over for Senna at Suzuka, whether or not Senna actually was being malicious or incompetent is moot. It's what Prost concluded that counts.
Ah good old Alain... a man you said yourself, some see comes with a considerable smokescreen, apparently. He had his opinions on Senna openly since Imola '89. They must've been brewing long before that for him to be public about it. Most likely when he realised he had his work cut out trying to beat Senna. How could he see if Senna was looking in his mirrors from his driving seat? Can drivers really do that? Anyway, are you talking about Suzuka '89? I have a video that absolutely 100% catagorically proves Prost rammed Senna deliberately, despite what he has maintained ever since. You can see him cruise though 130R to sucker Senna in for the overtake, check his mirrors, turn in about 5 metres early (compared to his usual racing line), and keep turning in after contact has been made. I did it on an overlay - mixing a regular lap with the contact lap over the top of each other using in-car and extra-car angles, so the differences are plain to see. There many incidents with Senna that Prost states, that are provable lies. FOM wouldn't allow it to be public though. Ho-hum.
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Flanders.
5,958 posts
77 months
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mattikake said: Complete drivel. You like the sound of your own voice to much.
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Life Saab Itch
34,076 posts
57 months
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Flanders. said: You like the sound of your own voice to much. That's the first statement of fact in this thread. Well done.
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Alfanatic
5,991 posts
88 months
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mattikake said: Ah good old Alain... a man you said yourself, some see comes with a considerable smokescreen, apparently.
He had his opinions on Senna openly since Imola '89. They must've been brewing long before that for him to be public about it. Most likely when he realised he had his work cut out trying to beat Senna.
How could he see if Senna was looking in his mirrors from his driving seat? Can drivers really do that?
Anyway, are you talking about Suzuka '89? I have a video that absolutely 100% catagorically proves Prost rammed Senna deliberately, despite what he has maintained ever since. You can see him cruise though 130R to sucker Senna in for the overtake, check his mirrors, turn in about 5 metres early (compared to his usual racing line), and keep turning in after contact has been made. I did it on an overlay - mixing a regular lap with the contact lap over the top of each other using in-car and extra-car angles, so the differences are plain to see. There many incidents with Senna that Prost states, that are provable lies.
FOM wouldn't allow it to be public though. Ho-hum.
Firstly, that's enough of the patronising bulls t from you. You were always happy to talk to me as an adult when I've supported your viewpoint, have the manners to do so when I don't support it. You have little enough credibility around here as it is. Secondly, prost's views on Senna changed, in his own words, when he realised that Senna was willing to crash into him rather than be overtaken. So did Mansell's. And Brundle. They and many others who raced against Senna have gone on record as saying that he would risk a crash rather than be overtaken, and rely on the likelihood that the other driver will choose to back off and come second rather than crash. That was his reputation. No different to Schumacher. Senna was fast, no doubt, but there is no way he was a driver of sound morals and a well developed sense of fair play. He was a driver obsessed with winning and willing to do whatever it took to do so. And so was Schumacher. Doesn't make it right, but a willingness to crash doesn't make him a slow driver.
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mattikake
4,025 posts
68 months
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Alfanatic said: Firstly, that's enough of the patronising bulls t from you. You were always happy to talk to me as an adult when I've supported your viewpoint, have the manners to do so when I don't support it. You have little enough credibility around here as it is. What part of the previous post was patronising? :s Anyway, it's a matter of respect. I still have found no reason to respect a Schmacker fan for any empirical reason they choose to be a Schmacker fan. I have no issues with opinion on any subject when it can be reasoned reasonably. Alfanatic said: Secondly, prost's views on Senna changed, in his own words, when he realised that Senna was willing to crash into him rather than be overtaken. So did Mansell's. And Brundle. They and many others who raced against Senna have gone on record as saying that he would risk a crash rather than be overtaken, and rely on the likelihood that the other driver will choose to back off and come second rather than crash. That was his reputation. No different to Schumacher. Senna causing accidents when someone attempted to overtake? Hmm... 5 arguable incidents come to mind. Mansell, Imola '87 and Portugal '89. Both Mansell's fault. Both generally accepted to be Mansell's fault. Patrese Germany '92. No contact made. Patrese spun on his own accord, being over exuberant in the last few laps of a charge. One incident against the Schmacker himself. Schumi only had his wing alongside Senna by the apex, so really he should've backed out of it. Schumi's fault. So that just leaves Rosberg Britian '85. One incident creates a reputation? So no. I still see no reason to respect a Schmacker fan. Alfanatic said: He was a driver obsessed with winning and willing to do whatever it took to do so. Actually I seem to pretty clearly remember Senna being someone obsessed with being the best, not winning. This is why he was so eager to take Prost on at McLaren as Prost was the "man to beat" of the times... It's only the Schmacker who wanted to win at any cost, even at the sport itself. Anyway, why is it the best defense the pro-Schmacker camp can come with to justify him is that one guy, Senna, did it first? That's childlike playground reasoning. "He threw that stone first teacher, so why can't I?" That's the thing about respect, it's only earned. One thing you need to consider is that despite Schumi's clearly outstanding record, is why are ALL the polls, professional and public opinion you see, is he never listed at the greatest of all time? If only stats count, how can that be?
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Killer2005
15,390 posts
97 months
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mattikake said: Alfanatic said: Firstly, that's enough of the patronising bulls t from you. You were always happy to talk to me as an adult when I've supported your viewpoint, have the manners to do so when I don't support it. You have little enough credibility around here as it is. Anyway, it's a matter of respect. I still have found no reason to respect a Schmacker fan for any empirical reason they choose to be a Schmacker fan. I have no issues with opinion on any subject when it can be reasoned reasonably. I usually keep out of pointless arguments on the internet, but this bit does make you sound like a monumental idiot.
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