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rumple
Original Poster
2,501 posts
20 months
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Listening to Sir Jackie Stewart, a man who can drive abit, 27 f1 wins out of 99 starts, his stats stack up to anyones, when asked about Senna he gives the impression that he dosent really rate him as a driver, he put Prost in his top five but Senna he said was a driver that took too many risks and drove beyond the level of his skill. I always rated Senna as the greatest and schumacher, i always disliked for certain dubious accidents, costing Hill a title for one, but Jackie really made me think, if you regard Schumacher in that way the surely you must also regard senna in that way. The point was also made that Senna always put himself in a position that the other driver had to react to prevent an accident, Jackie rightly claimed that a driver would not have survied in the sixties when it was a truley dangerous sport, he also claimed Senna had had more shunts than all the previous f1 champs put together, and that is not really very good is it, is Jackie right, was senna a very good driver but not the greatest, was he someone that had talent but drove above his means, you cant say he was a s  t driver, but how good was he?. Opinions please.
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freedman
4,075 posts
76 months
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Deove beyopnd the level of his skill? JYS really does talk some s t, irrespective of how good he was as a driver himself
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DrTre
12,428 posts
101 months
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Greatest is always going to be subjective. Doubtless his tactics were unsavoury at times, but I think for some people, of a certain age he was the "best" and I'm one of those people.
Did he drive beyond the level of his skill at times? Probably, but I daresay all competitors, Sir Jackie included, have done the same. Could be argued that if you aren't then you're not doing it properly?
The point about number of shunts, again possibly true but it could be argued that the safety of cars improved quite startlingly in the early 80's so did that lead to more drivers taking more risks etc? Being charitable to Senna, I guess Sir Jackies point could be extrapolated to asking whether Senna would have adopted the same tactics and so been as successful in the 60's? Maybe not. It's not necessarily one particular aspect but an accumulation of many factors.
It's all a bit too tied in to contemporary circumstance to make a definite, subjective judgement on, which isn't the same as saying it's a pointless debate.
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pwrc
1,339 posts
21 months
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huge respect to JYS for what he did for the sport but yeah he does talk some s t sometimes, he never got on with senna either. I don't think there's much doubt about ayrton's sheer talent, but he also took it to the next level in terms of personal fitness, involvement in strategy and and technical focus. It's been said before that he was the predecessor to the modern F1 driver. But it's often easy to be blinded by people with religious obsessions over him which make it easy to forget that Senna also did plenty of questionable things on and off the track. As martin brundle once said, he was a huge paradox, that could happily force someone off the track one lap and then stop to help a crashed driver the next. For me the most complete driver will always be Jim Clark - but you can't really compare them, different sport back then.
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Carfolio
1,124 posts
50 months
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Senna was always a danger to other drivers and drove without any consideration for their safety. A fair number of other drivers could have looked as fast had they been as completely reckless. His undoubted talent has been overhyped due in no small amount to the fact that he died racing.
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Fire99
8,083 posts
98 months
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Senna was in my opinion a rough diamond. Supremely talented (perhaps one of the most naturally talented of all time) but with a few distinct flaws. However, he was true to himself and always raced to win. That was always compelling for me.
Stewart became all about safety. You could argue, almost obsessed. That wouldn't gel well with Senna's racing philosophy, so I'm not surprised that they 'clashed heads' somewhat.
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freedman
4,075 posts
76 months
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Carfolio said: Senna was always a danger to other drivers and drove without any consideration for their safety. A fair number of other drivers could have looked as fast had they been as completely reckless. His undoubted talent has been overhyped due in no small amount to the fact that he died racing. Clueless
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Carfolio
1,124 posts
50 months
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freedman said: Clueless Thanks for your contribution.
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freedman
4,075 posts
76 months
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Carfolio said: Thanks for your contribution. It was rather more accurate in your comments than the comments were about Senna's ability
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Jasandjules
45,368 posts
98 months
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I always felt he was too close to the lines of fairness to be truly great. Perhaps I am too "British"... But his skill with a car, well, there is no doubt about that.
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shirt
14,287 posts
70 months
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as a kid i didn't like senna, mansell and patrese in the williams were the guys for me.
looking back though, those cars were proper handfuls and senna's ability to keep the car under control when you think he's about to lose it is amazing.
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pwrc
1,339 posts
21 months
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i wouldn't have been that blunt, but carfolio is right.
but don't forgot senna made huge contributions to charity in brazil (which continues to this day). he was also massively concerned over driver safety to the point that it upset him greatly (in fact the death of ratzenberger nearly made him leave the sport that night, and one could argue that it destroyed his focus for the race and tragically contributed to his death - although that depends on weather you believe his car failed or not)
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Carfolio
1,124 posts
50 months
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freedman said: It was rather more accurate in your comments than the comments were about Senna's ability I think if you read my comments again you'll find that I am not slating his ability as much as his recklessness and the fact that his ability has been overhyped due to the manner and the fact that he's dead now. Want a mulligan?
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Johnboy Mac
2,666 posts
47 months
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Carfolio said: His undoubted talent has been overhyped due in no small amount to the fact that he died racing. 
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Nicholas Blair
4,002 posts
153 months
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freedman said: Deove beyopnd the level of his skill? JYS really does talk some s t, irrespective of how good he was as a driver himself JYS just really annoys me.
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Crafty_
4,511 posts
69 months
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In short yes he was that good.
I've got alot of time for JYS, you have to remember that he came from a time where death was frequent, often needlessly. One summer he saw a fellow racer buried every month. Thats going to make anyone think a bit.
Senna was so utterly focussed on winning, being the best that nothing got in the way of that. It was a viewpoint at odds with Jackie and both struggled to see each others point of view.
Was Senna the best ever ? I don't know, but he was certainly one of the most determined and focussed drivers, maybe he was the most focussed driver ever. Racing was and still is a poorer place without him.
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HotRod32
49 posts
14 months
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Crafty_ said: In short yes he was that good.
I've got alot of time for JYS, you have to remember that he came from a time where death was frequent, often needlessly. One summer he saw a fellow racer buried every month. Thats going to make anyone think a bit.
Senna was so utterly focussed on winning, being the best that nothing got in the way of that. It was a viewpoint at odds with Jackie and both struggled to see each others point of view.
Was Senna the best ever ? I don't know, but he was certainly one of the most determined and focussed drivers, maybe he was the most focussed driver ever. Racing was and still is a poorer place without him. Well said...
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KaraK
10,594 posts
78 months
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Johnboy Mac said: Carfolio said: His undoubted talent has been overhyped due in no small amount to the fact that he died racing. He's right though - Senna was massively talented but at the same time he was reckless at times and downright dirty at others. Much of the negative aspects get glossed over though because of the timing and manner of his death.
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stephen300o
12,637 posts
97 months
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KaraK
10,594 posts
78 months
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dom180 said: KaraK said: Johnboy Mac said: Carfolio said: His undoubted talent has been overhyped due in no small amount to the fact that he died racing. He's right though - Senna was massively talented but at the same time he was reckless at times and downright dirty at others. Much of the negative aspects get glossed over though because of the timing and manner of his death. No he's not. There were a few racing incidents (and far far less than you think when you add them all up and divide by the number of races he raced and/or compared to Schumacher's barging) and that one swerve against Prost in '88 (still leaving more room than the Schumacher/Rubens episode) but Japan 1990 was just a response to Prost's 89 crash. Without wanting to get into specific incidents growing up watching him I always felt that he was an overly aggressive driver who was more than happy to trade on the reputation that gave him for being willing to crash and using that to get other people to give way on track. The tit-fot-tat incidents with Prost were childish and dangerous acts from both of them - and "he started it" is not a justification I'd expect to hear from a supposed adult. I do think it bears repeating that I think he was massively, massively talented - probably amongst a handfull of drivers of the modern era who were that bit special. Was he some kind of god amongst men or saintly embodiment of sportsmanship? No. Do I think the "Legend of Aytron Senna" has been amplified and his faults glossed over as a result of his death? Absolutely.
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