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DanDC5
7,024 posts
37 months
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I think Senna really was as good as many make him out to be, his talent and skill were undeniable, but he will always be a flawed genius in the same way that to me Schumacher is a flawed genius, he used dirty tactics when they weren't necessary and for me it stops them both being the greatest.
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Amateurish
2,992 posts
92 months
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Jackie Stewart certainly has some form in this matter. In the Senna film there's a great interview with Senna where Jackie accuses Senna of being reckless. Senna response is really interesting: interview said: STEWART: OK, let me ask you another difficult question. If I were to count back all the World Champions - and, after all, this is the 500th grand prix, if you totalled up all of those great champions [SENNA SMILES LANGUIDLY] and the number of times they had made contact with other drivers, you in the last 36 months or 48 months have been in contact with more other cars and drivers than they might have done in total. SENNA: I find it amazing for you to make such a question, Stewart, because you are very experienced and you know a lot about racing and you should know that by being a racing driver you are under risks all the time. Being a racing driver means you are racing with other people and if you no longer go for a gap that exists you are no longer a racing driver - because we are competing, we are competing to win and the main motivation to all of us is to compete for a victory. It's not to come third, fourth, fifth or sixth. Right? SENNA: When there is a gap [RAISES HAND], when there is a gap it is designed for being in a competition at a very high level [meaning the gap happens in a very high level of competition] with cars going so close as they go today, with the same horsepower, with the same level of grip, with the same low aerodynamics, you all know with the different circuits where it is very difficult for overtaking - because the circuits are designed not in an appropriate manner for overtaking manoeuvres - you either commit yourself as a professional racing driver that is designed to win races [WAVING HAND] or you come second, or you come third, or you come fifth and I am not designed to come third, fourth, or fifth. I race to win as long as I feel it is possible. Sometimes you get it wrong, sure, it is impossible to get it right all the time but I race designed to win [WAVING LEFT HAND] and as long as I feel I am doing it right some people agree, some don't. In the end I am the one who is doing it, I am the one who is driving and I can only do what speaks for my mind [meaning what I think]. Personally, from having watched F1 since the early 80s, I am of the opinion that Senna has only ever been bettered by Schumacher and that Senna possibly had more natural talent.
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freedman
4,084 posts
77 months
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ukmike2000 said: My interests in motor racing go back way before the Senna era and I tend to agree with Jackie Stewart. No doubting Senna's driving talent but it wasn't tempered with enough consideration for the consequences. His periodic brilliant results endeared him to the public with his spectacular style, but ultimately he rode his luck too often and JYS is correct when he overdrove his talents.
The are old pilots and bold pilots - but there are no old, bold pilots.
. Had the accident been one where hecrashed by trying a manouver that wasnt on, maybe your point would be valid But it wasnt, the accident was exectly that, caused, almost certainly by a failure on the car Nothing to do with his style or overdriving
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Paul Dishman
2,086 posts
107 months
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DanDC5 said: I think Senna really was as good as many make him out to be, his talent and skill were undeniable, but he will always be a flawed genius in the same way that to me Schumacher is a flawed genius, he used dirty tactics when they weren't necessary and for me it stops them both being the greatest. Exactly. Can you imagine Clark, Moss or Fangio ever intentionally driving into a fellow competitor?
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woof
6,979 posts
147 months
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I was thinking about what makes a good racing driver recently. I instruct a few people for fun ( yep I question it as well sometimes)
Fundamentally - i think anyone that can drive well on the road, can be made into a good racing driver. It just takes a lot of practice and money.
If you look at most of the top drivers across all formulas, they've all had a lot of funding from an early age ( rich parents or some very lucky ones with sponsors ) and then it's just down to getting out there, learning how to drive at the limits and improving race craft.
Motor racing doesn't require any particular physically requirements (short and light helps) but what you need is money !
Footnote: There are some examples of drivers who do have a better than average talent for driving that do very well and others that never get that break Perry Mcarthy being an example of someone with a remarkable natural talent and a remarkable lack of money !
Vitaly Petrov is another driver with a great deal of natural talent who did very little before he got to F1 ( only 6 years of motorsport experience before joining F1 ) however, he does have bucket loads of money.
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freedman
4,084 posts
77 months
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Paul Dishman said: Exactly.
Can you imagine Clark, Moss or Fangio ever intentionally driving into a fellow competitor? No, I dont think you could, though Fangio was pretty ruthless Then agin I dont think any of them were ever in the situation Senna was in 1990 Cheated in 89 after Prost deliberately drove into him (yes poor innocent Alain), then the Balestre got involved and that was that What side was pole on in 90 etc etc I dont say what he did was right, but there was a whole lot of history behind it
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emicen
5,702 posts
88 months
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ukmike2000 said: My interests in motor racing go back way before the Senna era and I tend to agree with Jackie Stewart. No doubting Senna's driving talent but it wasn't tempered with enough consideration for the consequences. His periodic brilliant results endeared him to the public with his spectacular style, but ultimately he rode his luck too often and JYS is correct when he overdrove his talents.
The are old pilots and bold pilots - but there are no old, bold pilots.
Much the same criticism I would make about the late Colin Mcrae. Uncatchable on the right day - but picking pieces of car out of the undergrowth too often. What is power without control? The public love someone who will "have a go", hence Lewis Hamilton's support even from those who don't follow the sport. Their bravery becomes their defining characteristic and perhaps the adrenalin makes them over-confident. Having the intelligence to know when to slow down is what makes great drivers, not being the quickest to the inevitable accident. Senna was killed by a mechanical failure, not by an overly ballsy overtake that went wrong. Do the stats on WRC starts vs. crash out retirements, Colin McRae isnt even in the top 5, notably Tommi Makinnen has a worse record than him.
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Paul Dishman
2,086 posts
107 months
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freedman said: Paul Dishman said: Exactly.
Can you imagine Clark, Moss or Fangio ever intentionally driving into a fellow competitor? No, I dont think you could, though Fangio was pretty ruthless Then agin I dont think any of them were ever in the situation Senna was in 1990 Cheated in 89 after Prost deliberately drove into him (yes poor innocent Alain), then the Balestre got involved and that was that What side was pole on in 90 etc etc I dont say what he did was right, but there was a whole lot of history behind it To my mind the history doesn't excuse or justify his behaviour and although he was a supremely talented driver I simply cannot count him amongst the "greats" because of it. I consider Michael Schumacher, despite his record, in the same light.
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freedman
4,084 posts
77 months
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Paul Dishman said: To my mind the history doesn't excuse or justify his behaviour and although he was a supremely talented driver
I simply cannot count him amongst the "greats" because of it. I consider Michael Schumacher, despite his record, in the same light. Thats fair enough, I'd only say I think he was at least one rung above Schumacher, on every level
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Adrian W
8,230 posts
98 months
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I think maybe stewart is getting a bit old, he seems to be 73 going on 90, if Senna was that bad he would have crashed a lot.........................he didn't
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JMC1
408 posts
105 months
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Ayrton Senna: 41 Grand Prix Wins, 3 World Drivers Titles, 610 Championship Points, 80 Podiums & 65 Pole Positions. RIP Alain Prost: 51 Grand Prix Wins, 4 World Drivers Titles Championship, 768 Points, 106 Podiums & 33 Pole Positions....... still alive You tell me and I am sure you will. On the days that Sir Jackie Stewart gets on your nerves and he surely will take a look at the tv documentary "Grand Prix the Killer Years" and you will forgive him as he did so much for the sports safety. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xmlzni_grand-prix...
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Paul Dishman
2,086 posts
107 months
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freedman said: Paul Dishman said: To my mind the history doesn't excuse or justify his behaviour and although he was a supremely talented driver
I simply cannot count him amongst the "greats" because of it. I consider Michael Schumacher, despite his record, in the same light. Thats fair enough, I'd only say I think he was at least one rung above Schumacher, on every level I'd go along with that as well
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MrKipling43
5,402 posts
86 months
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This debate, in visual form:  or  or, in other words... 
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freedman
4,084 posts
77 months
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JMC1 said: Ayrton Senna: 41 Grand Prix Wins, 3 World Drivers Titles,
610 Championship Points, 80 Podiums & 65 Pole Positions. RIP
Alain Prost: 51 Grand Prix Wins, 4 World Drivers Titles Championship,
768 Points, 106 Podiums & 33 Pole Positions....... still alive What is your point here? The fact that Senna was the victim of a car failure that killed him and Prost wasnt?
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StevieBee
4,309 posts
125 months
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A little told story that's worthy of airing here is when Senna drove a Tyrrell - 1992 IIRC.
Honda were supplying factory engines to Tyrrell as well as McLaren. Part of the condition for the Tyrrell deal was that Ken ran Ukyo Katayama, which he didn't want to do. Results were disappointing - Ken Blaming Katayama, Honda blaming the car. A deal was done to allow Senna to drive the Tyrrell at a tyre test at Silverstone 'after hours'. Without any changes and running the same tyres and fuel, Senna managed a time some 3 seconds quicker and reported the car to be 'very good'. The time would have put the Tyrrell in a top five grid position for that years British GP.
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Muzzer79
402 posts
57 months
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He was undoubtedly hugely talented, and could do things with a car that few others could. He also had his flaws - dubious tactics being one of them.
I do feel however that his greatness has been amplified in a lot of people's eyes by the fact that he died racing. This has also been applied to the likes of Gilles Villeneuve for example. When a tragedy like that occurs, the rose-tinted specs come out in force.
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woof
6,979 posts
147 months
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StevieBee said: A little told story that's worthy of airing here is when Senna drove a Tyrrell - 1992 IIRC.
Honda were supplying factory engines to Tyrrell as well as McLaren. Part of the condition for the Tyrrell deal was that Ken ran Ukyo Katayama, which he didn't want to do. Results were disappointing - Ken Blaming Katayama, Honda blaming the car. A deal was done to allow Senna to drive the Tyrrell at a tyre test at Silverstone 'after hours'. Without any changes and running the same tyres and fuel, Senna managed a time some 3 seconds quicker and reported the car to be 'very good'. The time would have put the Tyrrell in a top five grid position for that years British GP. Stick Alonso in the current Lotus and he'd stick it on pole as well
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fatboy69
4,901 posts
57 months
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StevieBee said: A little told story that's worthy of airing here is when Senna drove a Tyrrell - 1992 IIRC.
Honda were supplying factory engines to Tyrrell as well as McLaren. Part of the condition for the Tyrrell deal was that Ken ran Ukyo Katayama, which he didn't want to do. Results were disappointing - Ken Blaming Katayama, Honda blaming the car. A deal was done to allow Senna to drive the Tyrrell at a tyre test at Silverstone 'after hours'. Without any changes and running the same tyres and fuel, Senna managed a time some 3 seconds quicker and reported the car to be 'very good'. The time would have put the Tyrrell in a top five grid position for that years British GP. I have never heard that story before or read about it anywhere. Where on earth did you stumble across that one? Senna in a Tyrrell - that I would love to have seen just to confirm how old Senna was. Because he really was 'that good' as per the thread title.
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FourWheelDrift
56,832 posts
154 months
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Senna did jump into a Tyrrell-Honda at Jerez for a film shoot in 1991, but only as a joke. Check out the silly season rumours  
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superkartracer
6,697 posts
92 months
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Errcg7zUycgWatch this karting Vid in Japan, he drives the track in 31.500 then turns around and goes anticlockwise and does the same time... freakish skill. The guy was a genius at the wheel of a kart or racing car.
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