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Kong
1,306 posts
40 months
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The Crack Fox said: Kong said: I was also on the Scumball Rally 2007 (and 2006), looking back now it was a stupid idea. Another one, I was there too, what car were you in ? I was in the 'student' E32 (even though 2/3 of us had full time jobs). Been back every year since in better cars!
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Fishy Dave
191 posts
114 months
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c_seven said: I really couldn't believe someone had actually written this, not only is it offensive, but where it does stray from being simply offensive into attempting to make a point it is simply ignorant. As have the couple of posts since supporting this as 'common sense'!
I think I speak for almost all when I say that we love driving on the ring, I personally have never driven anywhere more exciting or challenging. But what I like is the glorious winding ribbon of tarmac itself, any safety improvements are not going to change the track or how we drive on it, all they are going to do and all Dale is suggesting is that the consequences of falling foul of someone else's actions, or running out of talent yourself do not end in serious injury, death or financial ruin.
Increasing the level of safety to that of the track days that already take place on the ring and taking small steps that prevent financial concerns preventing people from acting responsibly will not dampen your enjoyment when your driving, but it will certainly make things a lot better if and when you eventually fall off.
Frankly I think you should apologise to Dale, but something tells me that might be wishful thinking.
[High horse now dismounted from] I agree with you, and rarely get drawn into these sorts of arguments. The thrill of driving quickly at the ring for me does not come from wondering whether the next corner I come to might have an oil spill. I don't think it's too much to ask for users of the ring to be provided with the emergency number and the most basic of advice about what to do in the event of a mishap? Next time you are queing at the barrier just think that most of the people in front don't know that if they have an accident they need to call the emergency number. Dale isn't suggesting that every inch of the track be covered in bubble wrap or calling for speed limits, more run off etc. he says [quote]the sheer number of spills and their severity could, in my opinion, be reduced with some simple briefings or warnings. This might also result in more clean, quick laps with less track closure time. Maybe that briefing or warning would have saved Charly whilst his family and friends would not have had to mourn his loss? It seems to me that whether you die doing something you love or not the end result is still the same. Dave
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Mermaid
12,492 posts
40 months
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Fishy Dave said: Maybe that briefing or warning
Can't be that complicated to install cameras at all strategic locations, and caution warning warns activated if necessary.
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hman
4,810 posts
63 months
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Ninjaboy said: Keyword in your post there "scumball" ie old knackers and it proved the point really didnt it. oil and coolant leakage everywhere woudl you have the same attitude if you where injured and prive and joy smashed? I would put money on you coming on here bleating about people blasting old nails round the ring. ? Some people make no sense at all- you are sadly one of them. Did you bother to note that :- My car wasn't responsible for any fluid drops I too am a biker. My post wasnt difficult to comprehend . "Attitude" ? the irony is strong in you. Sometimes wtf just doesn't cover it ....
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havoc
20,159 posts
104 months
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hman said: Sometimes wtf just doesn't cover it .... Isn't that the new PH motto?
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hman
4,810 posts
63 months
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c_seven
124 posts
61 months
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Kawasicki said: I don't agree with you. I also like the ring because it's an amazing track. The massive danger is a big (but not the only) part of what makes it amazing for me. If it had 250 metres of run off in every direction I think it would lose much of its appeal. I would also drive it differently.
So I'll back up jnoiles on this one. No one is forced to drive/ride there. You can choose to stay away.
RIP Charly. Totally agree with you, if you really want run off, drive the GP circuit, without the roller coaster effect of barriers either side it wouldn't quite be the same. What I am saying though is that if you added a few more marshals or a light system of some sort as suggested by another poster, as well as basic safety briefings and info, as well as tackling the massively punitive charging structure relating to accidents it would still be the same experience, it would just be less likely to end in tragedy.
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jnoiles
20 posts
25 months
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Tabloid conclusions and lazy journalism? I'm not on fleet street writing about something I know nothing about. I live here, have done for 5 years. It's a nice place to live and to work.Could you maybe reflect that in some of your writing please? It's downright depressing reading your stuff. RX8 headlights are so expensive in Germany, I asked them if I could do a snow lap and they stole my idea, the wages are crap down here, the safety on tourist days is terrible. Whine, b  h, moan. Lighten up man. You live and work in the dream space for most of us and you act like it's a chore half the time. But just saying 'let it be, it's dangerous' is what I'd call lazy.It's what I'd call defensive. You and a bunch of others seem to be advocating the introduction of nannying to one of the last true places on earth where I get to make an adult decision about how I spent my time. A decision that quite honestly requires me to assess the situation on a life or death basis. Living in England you simply don't get that opportunity very often. This, as stated, is a big part of the appeal down there. If you wrap the whole process in cotton wool and drivers briefings and warning signs and what not you're going to remove that. Do that and we might as well do a trackday at Cadwell. "Grow a pair"? I know my way around, I've lapped more laps than I can reliably count. Lots of bike laps, lots more car laps. Public sessions, trackdays, VLN and private sessions chasing lap times. I know what it's like to eat tarmac at 150mph or front-end a stationary car in one that's still moving quite quickly. Try being an instructor here, sitting on the passenger seat with a guy who can't change gear on a manual 'box but wants to do a sub-8 lap on his first day... I'm not going to attempt to grow my pair.I wasn't asking for a CV. I was asking you to man up and stop complaining that life gets a little dangerous from time to time. When I try and hire the track, the management want me to spend thousands of euros for a full safety team with flag marshalls. Even if it's just me on my todd. But on a big TF day they'll pull in 150k+ and serve several thousand drivers. And with less marshalls than one guy on a private session.Well there's your answer. You like it better when briefings and warnings are part of the experience. So hire the place and have a Lomas Track Day. On the evidence of this and other forums you'll have a lot of like minded people join you. I can even see how that would be appealing. VLN circuit use, flying laps, etc etc. Leave the TF days to people, like myself, who love them for what they are and represent. No reason the two can't co-exist. I understand your thinking, the 'fix' may just be to close the track, but I doubt it. It's a golden goose that lays a million euro egg every month.I'd really rather that didn't happen. Closing it would be a great loss to everyone. If we could get them to replace another 'ring-werk' advert with a message that SPILLS KILL, I'd be happy. Even printing the emergency number and what to do in an accident on the lap ticket? Is that so much? One little change like that could foreseeably save a life.No one prints the road rules or the penalties for not obeying them on the back of a drivers license card. It's up to the driver to know that. Likewise it's up to the driver to behave accordingly on TF day. Emergency numbers are clearly available where you buy tickets, the rules are on a big sign by the start. That's ample warning. If people choose not to read it, so be it, they choose not to. I consider that no one will do the right thing. I'm therefore not disappointed when they don't. I'm not going to apologise for rocking your status quo... You're not rocking my status quo and I'm not seeking an apology. It's all good. As evidenced by my run down there last week, I can drive down and do the TF sessions without briefings or hassle. if it's painful to read, why do you read it? Are you a masochist?Your name is only at the end of the articles. I'm usually halfway through by the time I realise the article is yours. I get an inkling of this when I feel my spirit sinking and it's confirmed by your name at the bottom. Put your name at the top of the article and I won't bother reading them anymore.
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jnoiles
20 posts
25 months
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c_seven said: I really couldn't believe someone had actually written this, not only is it offensive, but where it does stray from being simply offensive into attempting to make a point it is simply ignorant. As have the couple of posts since supporting this as 'common sense'! Happy to have the ignorant bits pointed out. What I pointed out is based on my own perceptions, opinions and desires. c_seven said: any safety improvements are not going to change the track or how we drive on it, all they are going to do and all Dale is suggesting is that the consequences of falling foul of someone else's actions, or running out of talent yourself do not end in serious injury, death or financial ruin. Still not following my thinking are you? I like the danger of death/personal responsibility bit. I don't like the idea that this will be diminished by turning the whole experience into something akin to a trackday in the UK. I'm not sure how much clearer I can explain that to you. c_seven said: Increasing the level of safety to that of the track days that already take place on the ring and taking small steps that prevent financial concerns preventing people from acting responsibly will not dampen your enjoyment when your driving, but it will certainly make things a lot better if and when you eventually fall off. As for introducing a fee that allows free recovery, do you honestly think that removing the consequence of having a minor off would make it safer? c_seven said: Frankly I think you should apologise to Dale And that's where we differ. 
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Varsity
79 posts
52 months
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Dale Lomas said: P.S. I think the risk is well-known to 'us', but not so well known to the majority of participants. That's one big change over the last 10 years. Agreed.
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Ross Parker
355 posts
61 months
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Hi all, just thought i would input here, i have been a few times to the ring. I would say the guys suggesting that warning lights be put in place round the track have got it spot on. atleast then you have been warned and can decide for yourself if your gonna go full pace through an oil slick.
The other thing that gets me is why they let cars and bikes out at the same time, this is just asking for trouble.If they were seperated and bikes to an earlier TF than cars there would be minimal slick on track rather than a cars worth. Plus then i wouldnt have to worry about watching the corners of my car for bikers all the time and then getting stuck behind them on the corners.
Now i know i cant tarnish you all with the same brush, but more often than not when you see a sports bike on the uk roads, its doing 100mph plus and overtaking in stupid places, over crests, around corners and into oncoming trafffic. Now i often have a play with bikers as i know i can keep up on corners and under braking but im very careful to keep my distance as i know the last thing a biker wants is to have a tonne and a half of car inches from his rear wheel. More often than not i end up giving up after a couple of minutes because the biker starts risking everyones lives in the vercinity by doing dodgy manouvers to loose me. I dont want a biker to have an accident and die infront of me and i have to live with that for the rest of my life because he did a stupid manouver. However i have a play with another car and its always a more sensible affair.
Riding a bike anywhere is one massive risk and if you are a biker you have biker mates who will die, every biker i know has many stories of freinds who have died, but you all seem to accept this as the norm. It is sad that people die, very, but you do it at your own risk, and the people that ride bike know this. However you are correct in saying that there are things that can be done to minimise such a risk. but the chances are the ring will never split TF's and will never widen the armoco round the whole ring so bikers dont hit it.
despite these risks you will still go and do laps at the ring.
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Mermaid
12,492 posts
40 months
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Ross Parker said: ,,,The other thing that gets me is why they let cars and bikes out at the same time, this is just asking for trouble.If they were seperated and bikes to an earlier TF than cars there would be minimal slick on track rather than a cars worth. Plus then i wouldnt have to worry about watching the corners of my car for bikers all the time and then getting stuck behind them on the corners.
. Good idea, but it costs them too much money to separate. Imagine bikes & cars racing DTM/ F1 style. That's a no no, and yet we have a junior level of it happening all the time.
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Ross Parker
355 posts
61 months
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Unfortunatly you will never remove human error or add common sense. Last year i was there in my volvo, on my fourth run about three quarters of the way round, i was on a right hander on the apex as in no more right to go, I had 3 porsches pass me just before this, but a guy in a new clio cup, not much faster than my volvo tried to do the same, although unlike the others he was aiming for the apex with me on it. he bounced off of my front pas door and wing.
Obviously shocked i instantly slowed too the right as did the clio infront of me off the racing line, got my mate to lean out the window to check the damage, luckily a mear dent, checking my steering at low speed and only then deciding it was safe to drive the last quarter and speek to the guy in the clio back off the circuit.
Its important to note in this particular incident after some thought and inspection would not cause loss of fluids to the vehicles involved.
with some decent common sense from riders, drivers and the owners of the ring it would be a safer place.
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Mermaid
12,492 posts
40 months
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Ross Parker said: with some decent common sense from riders, drivers and the owners of the ring it would be a safer place. common sense, red mist, race track for the average hobby driver is too much to handle
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fwaggie
1,308 posts
69 months
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The fact people still go off on trackdays *after* the safety briefing, etc, just goes to prove that the muppets will always ignore what is said, what may be printed on signs, what's shown in the safety video.
So adding these things to Nurburgring will do absolutely nothing in regard to those people.
It might educate some of the others who aren't arrogantly thick but just unaware.
The press doesn't contribute when you hear stories of being charged for not just the recovery, but the track time it took for the truck to reach you, recover you and get back to the pits, damage for every blade of grass cut down, armco lightly scratched, flower squashed.
I'm not planning to go so haven't bothered to look up the facts but the impression is even a very minor accident / off will cost a bloody fortune, so I can see those who don't bother to research before going having the same impressions and therefore continuing round to the end of the lap after a minor off.
And separating bikes and cars and putting them, as some have suggested, an hour of bikes, reduced day of cars, hour of bikes at the end of the day. They won't have time to clean up any oil spills before the end of day bike session so that'll do sod all to prevent accidents on oil/coolant spills.
I also get the impression that anything like safety instructions, etc, will provide more indicators that it's not just a toll road and is indeed a track and so will change the safety requirements hugely and bump up the price per lap a lot.
RIP to the guy who died, but he knew exactly what the risks were, and personally I'd much rather be responsible for my own safety as opposed to the government / organisers wrapping everything and body in bubble wrap.
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RWDKurt
105 posts
115 months
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I've thought carefully about contributing to this post, for reasons that will soon become obvious...
Over the last 20 years or so, I have done many uk trackdays and many TF laps of the NBR, all in a car. To my knowledge, I have caused 3 fluid spills: 2 oil and one coolant. The latter was during a TF session some years ago. The direct mechanical cause of each was different and (to me) unforeseen, and yes, I committed the cardinal sin at the Ring of trying to make it back to the car park.
From the benefit of my experience I would say the following:
1. If your car has been modified since it left the factory, get it checked regularly by a professional before using it for trackdays or TF.
2. Even if your car is standard, if it has done over 150K miles or is more than 15 years old, replace EVERY fluid hose - not just the nice big easy to change ones off the radiator.
3. Do not assume you will know when you are dumping fluids - the chances are you will not know until it's much too late. In my case, the coolant leak had all the symptoms of a head gasket failure.
4. Knowing you have contributed to an injury to someone else is not a nice feeling. Lord knows how it would feel to know had contributed to their death. Insurance may protect you from the financial consequences (if you have it), but not the emotional ones.
5. Bike only sessions at the Ring have been tried; I understand it made no difference to the casualty rates. Bikes are inherently more exciting and more dangerous than cars. Make your own choice accordingly.
6. In the UK, I don't believe we don't fully understand personal responsibility. The culture of the Ring is very different to almost every aspect of UK driving both on and off the track. Being responsible for both your own safety and those around you means a change of mindset.
7. I agree with Dale ref free recovery and spill awareness.
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legalknievel
199 posts
66 months
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RWDKurt said: I've thought carefully about contributing to this post, for reasons that will soon become obvious...
Over the last 20 years or so, I have done many uk trackdays and many TF laps of the NBR, all in a car. To my knowledge, I have caused 3 fluid spills: 2 oil and one coolant. The latter was during a TF session some years ago. The direct mechanical cause of each was different and (to me) unforeseen, and yes, I committed the cardinal sin at the Ring of trying to make it back to the car park.
From the benefit of my experience I would say the following:
1. If your car has been modified since it left the factory, get it checked regularly by a professional before using it for trackdays or TF.
2. Even if your car is standard, if it has done over 150K miles or is more than 15 years old, replace EVERY fluid hose - not just the nice big easy to change ones off the radiator.
3. Do not assume you will know when you are dumping fluids - the chances are you will not know until it's much too late. In my case, the coolant leak had all the symptoms of a head gasket failure.
4. Knowing you have contributed to an injury to someone else is not a nice feeling. Lord knows how it would feel to know had contributed to their death. Insurance may protect you from the financial consequences (if you have it), but not the emotional ones.
5. Bike only sessions at the Ring have been tried; I understand it made no difference to the casualty rates. Bikes are inherently more exciting and more dangerous than cars. Make your own choice accordingly.
6. In the UK, I don't believe we don't fully understand personal responsibility. The culture of the Ring is very different to almost every aspect of UK driving both on and off the track. Being responsible for both your own safety and those around you means a change of mindset.
7. I agree with Dale ref free recovery and spill awareness. Before all the freedom to be a danger to yourself and others / man up brigade start negatively commenting on your post, I'd like to just sneak in a +1. Sensible response from someone who probably learned in a fairly unpleasant way.
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Pistonwot
413 posts
28 months
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I cant believe Im reading such gutter levels of "woe is me" on Pistonheads, please try to act responsibly and control the fish-wife-esque wailings. Why must this fantasy obsessed demographic perennially b h to us about how, according to their skewed bromidic logic, all things of danger must be made safe to the point of banality? NO THEY SHOULDNT BE MADE SAFE, ADULTS accept the consequences of Motorsport which are NEVER "unexpected" and the results of leaving a track with little run-off at speed has a predictable outcome,,, its not looking good! As petrolheads our actions can amaze and frighten us or maybe upset those around us and on occasion have dire consequences. It is in THIS moment we need to get a grip of ourselves and do the right thing, the right thing is to offer respect and refrain from wailing. It is certainly not the time to get all Dorothy, emotionally over-react and start blaming absolute nonsense like oil on the track. Its actually annoying this nannying sh*te is accepted on Pistonheads, it really needs to be punted off to dull the pages of Road Safety Monthly or NCAP News where it belongs. Why must obvious dangers be "remedied"? Why should "certain" vehicles be excluded. Instead why not limit yourself if your human frailty is the concern? What has happened is tragic no doubt, BUT unexpected or blame apportionable, no, I think not! Safety??? ,,, a healthy lack of it is an integral part of being a petrolhead. Maybe its time for "woe is me" to go fishing or take up gardening? Evil Knievil would have kicked all of your pussy asses.
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Life Saab Itch
34,069 posts
57 months
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Pistonwot said: ADULTS accept the consequences of Motorsport
Evil Knievil would have kicked all of your pussy asses. On your first point: a TF day is not motorsport. There is no sport involved. On your second point: grow up.
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Pistonwot
413 posts
28 months
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Life Saab Itch said: Pistonwot said: ADULTS accept the consequences of Motorsport
Evil Knievil would have kicked all of your pussy asses. On your first point: a TF day is not motorsport. There is no sport involved. On your second point: grow up. Go buy a Dictionary as it appears grammar outwits you! Look up wailing fish-wife whilst your at it! So what is your very own gramatical take on kicking a ball about a park if it is not football? Why be such an immature douchebag? Toolish pedantry is a foul trait in any man and besides, the facts are in front of us all from the off. Facts like it matters not a jot if you believe it or not, dumping a bike at 130mph is gonna be felt. What do you think happens if you bump into the Armco at 130mph,,, It will make a scuffing noise and mark up your leathers?
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