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flasher
9,134 posts
153 months
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deadslow said: This always makes me larf!  He's nowhere near being the best driver on the grid. He's very, very good, very entertaining, and the UK press have decided he is in a league of his own, but the people who know all the salient facts have a poll each year (team principals) and they virtually unanimously opt for Fred. Because Alonso is in most peoples eyes, including mine, the best. However, in equal machinery Hamilton was a match for him and beat him on several occasions, outscoring him. Alonso himself sees Hamilton as his biggest threat, he's said so on several occasions this season. The driver that I can't make my mind up on is Vettel because the Red Bull hides a multitude of sins. I'd love to see Vettel in a Ferrari with Alonso because then we'd really find out what he's made of.
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hiccy
662 posts
81 months
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flasher said: Did you watch the last GP hiccy?
The Renault was clearly the quickest car, but Hamilton outqualified and outraced both of them. The only year the McLaren was class of the field since he's been there was 2007 and he outscored Alonso in an identical car and would have won the title if he had come in for tyres one lap earlier in China.
In 2009 the Mclaren was a dog, but Hamilton won two races and even stuck the dog on pole in Abu Dhabi.
Let's not forget that after last year being outscored by Jenson everyone wrote Hamilton off. This year he has wiped the floor with him, outqualifying him in every race barring Germany and outscoring him to the point where Jenson faces playing No.2 for the rest of the season.
The whole debate is a non-starter for me, Hamilton will sign a deal at McLaren because it's something both parties want. Yup I watched it, the Mclaren was clearly the quickest car in qualifying trim, Lotus looked pretty good in the race. Hamilton looked to have time to spare in qualifying and was still over half a second quicker than anyone else. In the race he had enough pace to keep first Grosjean then Raikonnen behind him without threat. So they were both good cars that weekend and possibly have the edge on Red Bull and Ferrari right now, although slight. Mclaren started the year with the best car on the grid and although others out-developed them a bit, they have had a competitive car for most of the season; Silverstone and Valencia are obvious low points. In 2009 the Mclaren started badly, as did most teams that didn't have the double diffuser. By the end of the year Mclaren had caught up and maybe even passed everyone else; they had clearly out-developed every other team on the grid. Mclaren haven't made a "dog" since 1995 and have always been championship contenders throughout Hamiltons F1 career. I completely agree that Hamilton will sign for Mclaren, there are no seats likely to be available to him in any other championship contending team and Mclaren probably offer him the best chance of another WDC. One which he'll richly deserve when it comes. 
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GavinPearson
4,982 posts
120 months
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flasher said: Along with Alonso and Vettel, Hamilton is in the top three of the current crop. He's not going to be a No. 2 to anyone and come contract renewal time he's going to play hardball.
Flip it the other way round and who do McLaren sign if Hamilton walks away? No-one any where near his calibre is available. This is the problem with a negotiation though, if he leaves then where will he go? Simple - as a number 2 at Ferrari, or a number 2 at Lotus, or a number 2 at Red Bull, etc, etc - unless some other driver is sacked or released. If you figure that this can happen for Hamilton's benefit then you can get anybody you want - except if you were Ron you'd steer clear of Alonso. So really Hamilton can talk a good game in the media but in Ron's office it's going to be Yes Ron, No Ron, Three Bags full Ron. Ron knows it and Hamilton knows it. As far as who do McLaren sign if Hamilton leaves - any driver that won a race this year - that's plenty to choose from.
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b0rk
212 posts
15 months
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flasher said: The driver that I can't make my mind up on is Vettel because the Red Bull hides a multitude of sins. I'd love to see Vettel in a Ferrari with Alonso because then we'd really find out what he's made of. Vettel has obvious talent but I do agree is it car or his raw talent that delivered him 2x WDC. As he does seem to have struggled this year at circuits that do not suit the redbull, seeing him in different car with another WDC would be interesting. Hamilton 07 and then 09 has shown he is more than just quick car driver. Something Alonso has also shown putting sub par Ferraris on pole and winning GP's with them. IMHO the F2012 isn't the pick of the field but yet Alsono could very well secure a WDC with it.
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Speedy11
291 posts
77 months
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GavinPearson said: As far as who do McLaren sign if Hamilton leaves - any driver that won a race this year - that's plenty to choose from. Button - Is already at McLaren Alonso - Is at Ferrari and won't go back to McLaren Rosberg - Signed up with Merc for “2013 and Beyond” Vettel - Most people think he is going to Ferrari in 2014 Maldonado - McLaren don't need his money so why would they want him, he is a liability Webber - Just resigned for Red Bull Hamilton - Only driver that has won this year that McLaren want or could have. So there is not plenty to choose from that have won a race this year, just one.
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Gaz.
47,128 posts
120 months
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GavinPearson said: As far as who do McLaren sign if Hamilton leaves - any driver that won a race this year - that's plenty to choose from. Not so. Jenson is already theirs, Alonso still has next year to run on his contract, as does Vettel & Maldonado. Webber resigned a 12 month extension as has Rosberg. Hamilton is the only race winner up for contract next season. This is the driver market for 2013: Hamilton Massa Schumacher Grosjean Ricciardo Vergne Perez Kobayashi Hulkenberg Di Resta Senna Petrov Kovalainen Kovi lost his seat to Jenson. Petrov, Senna, Vergne & Ricciardo will never warrant a seat in a top 4 team. Schumacher is 43 and at most will sign a 12 month extension with Mercedes. Massa is a shadow of his former self and will be lucky to keep his #2 seat at Ferrari never mind gaining an equal status seat at Mclaren. That leaves Grosjean, Perez, Kobayashi, Hulkenberg and Di Resta - all excellent drivers but in 2012 are they the equal of Hamilton?
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flasher
9,134 posts
153 months
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GavinPearson said: This is the problem with a negotiation though, if he leaves then where will he go? Simple - as a number 2 at Ferrari, or a number 2 at Lotus, or a number 2 at Red Bull, etc, etc - unless some other driver is sacked or released. If you figure that this can happen for Hamilton's benefit then you can get anybody you want - except if you were Ron you'd steer clear of Alonso.
So really Hamilton can talk a good game in the media but in Ron's office it's going to be Yes Ron, No Ron, Three Bags full Ron. Ron knows it and Hamilton knows it.
As far as who do McLaren sign if Hamilton leaves - any driver that won a race this year - that's plenty to choose from. Sorry, but Hamilton wouldnt be No.2 at any team. Any more than Alonso, Vettel, Button or anyone else. Your dislike of him is clearly outweighing common sense. Only Ferrari in the current F1 pitlane have a clear No.1 driver, and that, is costing them the constructors title. Vettel is rumoured to have a pre-contract for 2014 at Ferrari, do you think he'd go there as a No. 2? 
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GavinPearson
4,982 posts
120 months
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flasher said: Sorry, but Hamilton wouldnt be No.2 at any team. Any more than Alonso, Vettel, Button or anyone else. Your dislike of him is clearly outweighing common sense. The only driver I dislike is Alonso - for doing the dirty on McLaren.
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REALIST123
1,544 posts
22 months
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GavinPearson said: he only driver I dislike is Alonso - for doing the dirty on McLaren. Hmmm, most people see that the other way round.
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deadslow
3,183 posts
92 months
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REALIST123 said: GavinPearson said: he only driver I dislike is Alonso - for doing the dirty on McLaren. Hmmm, most people see that the other way round. yep
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Gaz.
47,128 posts
120 months
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REALIST123 said: GavinPearson said: he only driver I dislike is Alonso - for doing the dirty on McLaren. Hmmm, most people see that the other way round. Most? Not on this forum, certainly not on Autosport or F1technical either.
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E30M3SE
6,668 posts
65 months
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Gaz. said: Alonso still has next year to run on his contract, No, Ferrari 'have him' until end of 2016....
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deadslow
3,183 posts
92 months
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Gaz. said: REALIST123 said: GavinPearson said: he only driver I dislike is Alonso - for doing the dirty on McLaren. Hmmm, most people see that the other way round. Most? Not on this forum, certainly not on Autosport or F1technical either. McLaren were absolutely classic with their squandering of the potential of their expensive asset. They gave away both titles just to be perverse. A madenningly underperforming team in recent years, who can still do no wrong in the eyes of their fans. Weird.
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Gaz.
47,128 posts
120 months
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deadslow said: Gaz. said: REALIST123 said: GavinPearson said: he only driver I dislike is Alonso - for doing the dirty on McLaren. Hmmm, most people see that the other way round. Most? Not on this forum, certainly not on Autosport or F1technical either. McLaren were absolutely classic with their squandering of the potential of their expensive asset. They gave away both titles just to be perverse. A madenningly underperforming team in recent years, who can still do no wrong in the eyes of their fans. Weird. Hardly squandered and he hardly helped himself either. I assume you haven't noticed virtually the entire forum rounding on Mclaren this year for their performance in the pit lane and strategy calls? Even Mini1275 (who I'm sure wears rocket red face paint during the races) has ranted about it. Weird indeed. E30M3SE- cheers, I couldn't remember when his contract expired, thanks.
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deadslow
3,183 posts
92 months
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Gaz. said: Hardly squandered Most definitely squandered. Had they maximised their asset, they would have achieved a level of success which has eluded them for many, many years.
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Speedy11
291 posts
77 months
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deadslow said: Most definitely squandered. Had they maximised their asset, they would have achieved a level of success which has eluded them for many, many years. Alonso, Mclaren and to some extent Hamilton handled things badly in 2007 however if Alonso had not blackmailed Ron Dennis I am sure things might of gone better for him, but to say they would have achieved lots of more success is b  ks, they might have won the 2008 constructors but that is about it.
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Gaz.
47,128 posts
120 months
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deadslow said: Gaz. said: Hardly squandered Most definitely squandered. Had they maximised their asset, they would have achieved a level of success which has eluded them for many, many years. You are clearly looking for a rise & I just can't be bothered. Toodle pip.
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deadslow
3,183 posts
92 months
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Gaz. said: deadslow said: Gaz. said: Hardly squandered Most definitely squandered. Had they maximised their asset, they would have achieved a level of success which has eluded them for many, many years. You are clearly looking for a rise & I just can't be bothered. Toodle pip. You appear to be somewhat blinkered. Toodle pip.
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MocMocaMoc
1,112 posts
10 months
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deadslow said: Gaz. said: Hardly squandered Most definitely squandered. Had they maximised their asset, they would have achieved a level of success which has eluded them for many, many years. Excuse me? Had they maximis... Had they done better, they'd have done better? That's what you just said, right?
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RAClNG SNAKE
3,321 posts
101 months
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I admire Hamilton's achievements but if I was McLaren I would be weighing up what value I could get out of Grosjean or Di Resta both of whom would be very grateful of a seat in a race winning car.
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