Hamilton to Mercedes

[MGJohn]

vonuber said:

Gaz. said:

Can you really not see that the MP4-24 that won two races in the second half of the season was heavily developed from the original car that was at the bottom of the time sheets in winter testing and scored barely a dozen points in the first half of the 2009 season?

Lewis was DSQ (from 3rd, liegate), 7, 6, 4, 9, 12, 13, 16, 18 in the first 9 races. I would say that arguably he was poor midseason - Turkey to Germany - and that was only for 4 races. He went on to go 1, 2, Ret, 12, 1, 3, 3, Ret.
Rolling around in 18th permanently would be a poor car.

But meh, it doesn't really matter, just annoys me how people call that McLaren 'a dog' or a poor car. Poor by their consistent front row standards yes, but hardly slow.
.

What you fail miserably to appreciate here on PH vonuber ... ( yes, not serious here about that failure bit .. ) ... is that where Hamilton and Alonso are concerned, it is ALWAYS the car that underperforms, NEVER the driver. No exceptions. They are THEE driving Gods and thus flawless. Conversely where Button, Schumacher, Vettel and a few others are concerned, the reverse is ALWAYS the case.

...

[Use Psychology]

Generally speaking alonso and Hamilton are quicker than their team mates, hence you can see when it's the car that is slow and when it's the driver.

[DuncanM]

Use Psychology said:

Generally speaking alonso and Hamilton are quicker than their team mates, hence you can see when it's the car that is slow and when it's the driver.

I agree.

John, Surely this is clear in particular with regards to Alonso?

Button has done way better against Hamilton than most people would have predicted and is an excellent driver. However, half of this season he has been way off the pace in the same car as Lewis has been putting on pole.

Vettel is similar to Alonso in the fact he gets the most out of his car on the Sunday even after a poor qualy session.

[MGJohn]

Generally speaking .... most people ...

Got that right.

Just heard BBC R5Live newscast ~ Michael Schumacher crashed out ... apparently ... nothing else and no other drivers mentioned ... perhaps Di Resta is already past it ... and not worth a mention ....

Alonso choses or vetoes his NO.2 driver. Hamilton has had far more experience always driving top kit than Button has.

Put Vettel or Button in the second Ferrari ( if the two cars truly are equal ) and Alonso would not appear so superior to his team mate as he does with the current one. Failure to see that is .. Failure.

Equal cars .... Yeah ... right.

Edited by MGJohn on Friday 5th October 09:47

[DuncanM]

MGJohn said:

Generally speaking .... most people ...

Got that right.

Just heard BBC R5Live newscast ~ Michael Schumacher crashed out ... apparently ... nothing else and no other drivers mentioned ... perhaps Di Resta is already past it ... and not worth a mention ....

Alonso choses or vetoes his NO.2 driver. Hamilton has had far more experience always driving top kit than Button has.

Put Vettel or Button in the second Ferrari ( if the two cars truly are equal ) and Alonso would not appear so superior to his team mate as he does with the current one. Failure to see that is .. Failure.

Equal cars .... Yeah ... right.

Edited by MGJohn on Friday 5th October 09:47

Why do you keep mentioning Vettel?

"Equal cars .... Yeah ... right."

Is this really your argument for Massa being so much slower than Alonso?

[MGJohn]

DuncanM said:

MGJohn said:

Generally speaking .... most people ...

Got that right.

Just heard BBC R5Live newscast ~ Michael Schumacher crashed out ... apparently ... nothing else and no other drivers mentioned ... perhaps Di Resta is already past it ... and not worth a mention ....

Alonso choses or vetoes his NO.2 driver. Hamilton has had far more experience always driving top kit than Button has.

Put Vettel or Button in the second Ferrari ( if the two cars truly are equal ) and Alonso would not appear so superior to his team mate as he does with the current one. Failure to see that is .. Failure.

Equal cars .... Yeah ... right.

Why do you keep mentioning Vettel?

"Equal cars .... Yeah ... right."

Is this really your argument for Massa being so much slower than Alonso?

Massa has not been the same since that spring in the face incident. Still pretty useful though and no two cars are ever really the same....

Why not mention the younger DOUBLE F1 Champion or Button? Either alongside the 'Driving God' in an equal red car instead of post-spring in the face Massa would be a much more reliable measure of Alonso. He would never allow it of course. It's almost certainly part of his contract.

Maybe that young whipper-snapper Hamilton when they were both employed by McLaren was an unreliable yardstick after all and Hamilton was simply lucky and Alonso unlucky.

That's the way I see it. Put Alonso on your high pedestal if you so chose... include me out.
.

[DuncanM]

MGJohn said:

Massa has not been the same since that spring in the face incident. Still pretty useful though and no two cars are ever really the same....

Why not mention the younger DOUBLE F1 Champion or Button? Either alongside the 'Driving God' in an equal red car instead of post-spring in the face Massa would be a much more reliable measure of Alonso. He would never allow it of course. It's almost certainly part of his contract.

Maybe that young whipper-snapper Hamilton when they were both employed by McLaren was an unreliable yardstick after all and Hamilton was simply lucky and Alonso unlucky.

That's the way I see it. Put Alonso on your high pedestal if you so chose... include me out.
.

I think you've misunderstood me.

I ask why you keep mentioning Vettel because I can't see anyone questioning his outstanding pace?

Typically most opinions are that Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel are the quickest drivers in F1 at present.

I haven't put Alonso on a pedestal in any of my posts but I will say that this year he has been exceptional at getting good results from poor qualy positions.

Slightly back OT, Nico v Lewis will be very interesting imo, as will Button v Perez.

[vonuber]

DuncanM said:

I ask why you keep mentioning Vettel because I can't see anyone questioning his outstanding pace?

Really? It's a fairly constant theme.

[DanDC5]

DuncanM said:

Button has done way better against Hamilton than most people would have predicted and is an excellent driver. However, half of this season he has been way off the pace in the same car as Lewis has been putting on pole.

.

Go back a year though and the reverse is true, Jenson was the only man able to challenge Vettel through most of last year when Hamilton was, relatively speaking, nowhere to be seen.

[Vocal Minority]

DanDC5 said:

DuncanM said:

Button has done way better against Hamilton than most people would have predicted and is an excellent driver. However, half of this season he has been way off the pace in the same car as Lewis has been putting on pole.

.

Go back a year though and the reverse is true, Jenson was the only man able to challenge Vettel through most of last year when Hamilton was, relatively speaking, nowhere to be seen.

I reckon, on balance, that Hamilton has been smart here. People say that he has swapped a championship winning car for a non championship winning car. Well when was the last time he won the championship in that McLaren?! Now that has obviously been for a number of reasons of both the teams making and also Hamiltons making (I find it bemusing how so many people can insist it is exclusively one or the other...).

2011 was cited above, when Lewis' head clearly went AWOL for whatever reason (not saying Button didn't do a bang up job - but we all know the gap is closer than that) - I think Hamilton NEEDS the change of scenery, if the relationship is not at its best then he needs a better environment to get the best out of himself, just like everyone.

Point 2 is that all the designers, including everyone's favourite Adrian newey, say 2014 is going to be all about engines. Who makes the best engine and have for a while?

So he may see it as investing a year of his time (2013) in a real championship tilt in 2014.

Not nearly as catastrophic as some think IMHO.

[TheHeretic]

Vocal Minority said:

2011 was cited above, when Lewis' head clearly went AWOL for whatever reason (not saying Button didn't do a bang up job - but we all know the gap is closer than that) - I think Hamilton NEEDS the change of scenery, if the relationship is not at its best then he needs a better environment to get the best out of himself, just like everyone.

So when he is beaten, it is because he has issues. When he is doing the beating it is cos the other guy isn't as good. Gotcha.;)

I think that Hamilton has reached a plateau. Whether he can increase that plateau at Mercedes is an interesting part of next season, along with how he does against Rosberg.

[Vocal Minority]

TheHeretic said:

Vocal Minority said:

2011 was cited above, when Lewis' head clearly went AWOL for whatever reason (not saying Button didn't do a bang up job - but we all know the gap is closer than that) - I think Hamilton NEEDS the change of scenery, if the relationship is not at its best then he needs a better environment to get the best out of himself, just like everyone.

So when he is beaten, it is because he has issues. When he is doing the beating it is cos the other guy isn't as good. Gotcha.;)

And naturally it has to boil down to Button v Hamilton doesn't it?

I prefer Button personally, but I believe that Hamilton is the quicker*. Your head being in the right place is part of being the better competitor (note not driver), and in 2011 Hamilton was out-competed. - But if his head is in the right place - and after a team move it may well be - he will be a better competitor I expect.

• Button has ALWAYS struggled for consistency. Not sure what his issue was in the middle part of this season, but it was certainly something.

[angrymoby]

DanDC5 said:

Go back a year though and the reverse is true, Jenson was the only man able to challenge Vettel through most of last year when Hamilton was, relatively speaking, nowhere to be seen.

I wouldn't call being 122 points adrift a 'challenge'

[stuttgartmetal]

I tought Massa bounced back.

[coetzeeh]

stuttgartmetal said:

I tought Massa bounced back.

no the spring did

are you Irish btw?

[TheHeretic]

Vocal Minority said:

And naturally it has to boil down to Button v Hamilton doesn't it?

I prefer Button personally, but I believe that Hamilton is the quicker*. Your head being in the right place is part of being the better competitor (note not driver), and in 2011 Hamilton was out-competed. - But if his head is in the right place - and after a team move it may well be - he will be a better competitor I expect.

• Button has ALWAYS struggled for consistency. Not sure what his issue was in the middle part of this season, but it was certainly something.

Does it? Why mention him then? People often like to compare, as you did, but seem to think as I stated. Hamilton does well, it is Hamilton. Hamilton does badly then it is the car. It seems to be the inverse for Button, and excuses for when he did beat Hamilton are plenty, but normally how terrible emotional period. They are all drivers, and they all have to deal with exactly the same stresses in life. How they deal with it is all part and parcel of being a driver.

[heebeegeetee]

TheHeretic said:

Does it? Why mention him then? People often like to compare, as you did, but seem to think as I stated. Hamilton does well, it is Hamilton. Hamilton does badly then it is the car. It seems to be the inverse for Button, and excuses for when he did beat Hamilton are plenty, but normally how terrible emotional period. They are all drivers, and they all have to deal with exactly the same stresses in life. How they deal with it is all part and parcel of being a driver.

And what if they don't?

To be fair though, Hamilton has done what a few drivers have done in recent years - left McLaren, seemingly because they're not happy. Its now Montoya, Raikkonenen, Alonso and Hamilton that have left in recent times. That's a list of pretty good names.

[MGJohn]

heebeegeetee said:

TheHeretic said:

Does it? Why mention him then? People often like to compare, as you did, but seem to think as I stated. Hamilton does well, it is Hamilton. Hamilton does badly then it is the car. It seems to be the inverse for Button, and excuses for when he did beat Hamilton are plenty, but normally how terrible emotional period. They are all drivers, and they all have to deal with exactly the same stresses in life. How they deal with it is all part and parcel of being a driver.

And what if they don't?

To be fair though, Hamilton has done what a few drivers have done in recent years - left McLaren, seemingly because they're not happy. Its now Montoya, Raikkonenen, Alonso and Hamilton that have left in recent times. That's a list of pretty good names.

Any 'bad' names that drove for Mclaren ? ...

[Sir Bagalot]

I haven't read the whole of this thread, life is too short.

I'm a Lewis fan. When he hit the screens he was a breath of fresh air. A racer. Thank fk for that after the years of MS.

If only he would of learn't to keep his personal and professional life seperate. Not always helped by his team.

In the past 18-24 months he's become boring. Yes, some races he shows his absolute brillance. You think thank fk he has joined back up with Fred as the only real two racers in the game. Then he goes off the boil again.

During those 18-24 months we have slowly learn't that Brand Hamilton appears to be more important than racing.

During his recent interview one point really stood out for me. He hadn't shown Ron Dennis respect by speaking to him face to face about his plans to move. Whether he was his boss or not, they have a long working relationship, and to me he should of shown him the respect due.

Shame on you Lewis. Shame on you.

[revrange]

think it will prove a good move. you can't bet again guys like ross brawn in the long haul, they get it right. Also Brawn is a past master at che**** i mean getting things past the FIA And 2014 will throw up plenty of chances for that i am sure.

I think Hamilton needed a change from Mclaren, and Mclaren will hurt next year with out Mercedes money and having to pay for the engines. Interesting that Haug said mercedes were paying part of Hamiltons wages, so its not just Mclaren suddenly have another 15 million to spend on the car

fact is its brilliant to win 1 in 4 races but championships are what it boils down too, and since 2008 they just haven't been good enough.

I like Mclaren and I like Hamilton, is sad to seem them part, but who knows in the future he might head back there.