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Hamilton to Mercedes

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Bedazzled

11,765 posts

128 months

Friday 5th October 2012
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DuncanM said:
Why do you keep mentioning Vettel?

"Equal cars .... Yeah ... right."

Is this really your argument for Massa being so much slower than Alonso?

I don't think there's evidence for Massa or Webber's cars being inferior, I can only remember one front wing debacle at RBR. It's always the car, but wait... Vettel won in a Toro Rosso, in fact he could have won twice but for a safety car incident, iirc.

MGJohn

10,203 posts

90 months

Friday 5th October 2012
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DuncanM said:
MGJohn said:
Generally speaking .... most people ... wink

Got that right.

Just heard BBC R5Live newscast ~ Michael Schumacher crashed out ... apparently ... nothing else and no other drivers mentioned ... perhaps Di Resta is already past it ... and not worth a mention .... smile

Alonso choses or vetoes his NO.2 driver. Hamilton has had far more experience always driving top kit than Button has.

Put Vettel or Button in the second Ferrari ( if the two cars truly are equal ) and Alonso would not appear so superior to his team mate as he does with the current one. Failure to see that is .. Failure.

Equal cars .... Yeah ... right.
Why do you keep mentioning Vettel?

"Equal cars .... Yeah ... right."

Is this really your argument for Massa being so much slower than Alonso?
Massa has not been the same since that spring in the face incident. Still pretty useful though and no two cars are ever really the same....

Why not mention the younger DOUBLE F1 Champion or Button? Either alongside the 'Driving God' in an equal red car instead of post-spring in the face Massa would be a much more reliable measure of Alonso. He would never allow it of course. It's almost certainly part of his contract.

Maybe that young whipper-snapper Hamilton when they were both employed by McLaren was an unreliable yardstick after all and Hamilton was simply lucky and Alonso unlucky.

That's the way I see it. Put Alonso on your high pedestal if you so chose... include me out.
.



DuncanM

3,526 posts

186 months

Friday 5th October 2012
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MGJohn said:
Massa has not been the same since that spring in the face incident. Still pretty useful though and no two cars are ever really the same....

Why not mention the younger DOUBLE F1 Champion or Button? Either alongside the 'Driving God' in an equal red car instead of post-spring in the face Massa would be a much more reliable measure of Alonso. He would never allow it of course. It's almost certainly part of his contract.

Maybe that young whipper-snapper Hamilton when they were both employed by McLaren was an unreliable yardstick after all and Hamilton was simply lucky and Alonso unlucky.

That's the way I see it. Put Alonso on your high pedestal if you so chose... include me out.
.
I think you've misunderstood me.

I ask why you keep mentioning Vettel because I can't see anyone questioning his outstanding pace?

Typically most opinions are that Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel are the quickest drivers in F1 at present.

I haven't put Alonso on a pedestal in any of my posts but I will say that this year he has been exceptional at getting good results from poor qualy positions.

Slightly back OT, Nico v Lewis will be very interesting imo, as will Button v Perez.


vonuber

8,558 posts

72 months

Friday 5th October 2012
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DuncanM said:
I ask why you keep mentioning Vettel because I can't see anyone questioning his outstanding pace?
Really? It's a fairly constant theme.

DanDC5

10,936 posts

74 months

Friday 5th October 2012
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DuncanM said:
Button has done way better against Hamilton than most people would have predicted and is an excellent driver. However, half of this season he has been way off the pace in the same car as Lewis has been putting on pole.

.
Go back a year though and the reverse is true, Jenson was the only man able to challenge Vettel through most of last year when Hamilton was, relatively speaking, nowhere to be seen.
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doogz

25,894 posts

94 months

Friday 5th October 2012
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hora said:
Is this taken out of context or seriously how he answered/means?

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/hamilton-says-s...
"Hamilton says no to Schumacher backroom role at Mercedes"

and

"But when asked whether he was expecting Schumacher to remain in the background, Hamilton said quite simply and emphatically: "No.""

aren't really the same thing.

Vocal Minority

5,723 posts

59 months

Friday 5th October 2012
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DanDC5 said:
DuncanM said:
Button has done way better against Hamilton than most people would have predicted and is an excellent driver. However, half of this season he has been way off the pace in the same car as Lewis has been putting on pole.

.
Go back a year though and the reverse is true, Jenson was the only man able to challenge Vettel through most of last year when Hamilton was, relatively speaking, nowhere to be seen.
I reckon, on balance, that Hamilton has been smart here. People say that he has swapped a championship winning car for a non championship winning car. Well when was the last time he won the championship in that McLaren?! Now that has obviously been for a number of reasons of both the teams making and also Hamiltons making (I find it bemusing how so many people can insist it is exclusively one or the other...).

2011 was cited above, when Lewis' head clearly went AWOL for whatever reason (not saying Button didn't do a bang up job - but we all know the gap is closer than that) - I think Hamilton NEEDS the change of scenery, if the relationship is not at its best then he needs a better environment to get the best out of himself, just like everyone.

Point 2 is that all the designers, including everyone's favourite Adrian newey, say 2014 is going to be all about engines. Who makes the best engine and have for a while?

So he may see it as investing a year of his time (2013) in a real championship tilt in 2014.

Not nearly as catastrophic as some think IMHO.

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

162 months

Friday 5th October 2012
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Vocal Minority said:
2011 was cited above, when Lewis' head clearly went AWOL for whatever reason (not saying Button didn't do a bang up job - but we all know the gap is closer than that) - I think Hamilton NEEDS the change of scenery, if the relationship is not at its best then he needs a better environment to get the best out of himself, just like everyone.
So when he is beaten, it is because he has issues. When he is doing the beating it is cos the other guy isn't as good. Gotcha.;)

I think that Hamilton has reached a plateau. Whether he can increase that plateau at Mercedes is an interesting part of next season, along with how he does against Rosberg.

Vocal Minority

5,723 posts

59 months

Friday 5th October 2012
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TheHeretic said:
Vocal Minority said:
2011 was cited above, when Lewis' head clearly went AWOL for whatever reason (not saying Button didn't do a bang up job - but we all know the gap is closer than that) - I think Hamilton NEEDS the change of scenery, if the relationship is not at its best then he needs a better environment to get the best out of himself, just like everyone.
So when he is beaten, it is because he has issues. When he is doing the beating it is cos the other guy isn't as good. Gotcha.;)

And naturally it has to boil down to Button v Hamilton doesn't it? wink

I prefer Button personally, but I believe that Hamilton is the quicker*. Your head being in the right place is part of being the better competitor (note not driver), and in 2011 Hamilton was out-competed. - But if his head is in the right place - and after a team move it may well be - he will be a better competitor I expect.

  • Button has ALWAYS struggled for consistency. Not sure what his issue was in the middle part of this season, but it was certainly something.

Bedazzled

11,765 posts

128 months

Friday 5th October 2012
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doogz said:
...But when asked whether he was expecting Schumacher to remain in the background, Hamilton said quite simply and emphatically: "No."
Less dramatic than the headline, but quite interesting all the same.

Personally I think the tyres-made-of-cheese era has screwed Lewis over, his diehard fans like to point to the odd race where he actually managed them better than Jenson, but on the whole I don't think they suit his driving style (or Schuey's / Webber's, for that matter). With the old tyres and the way Lewis was able to chuck the car about I think he might have dominated rather than spending his time crashing in the midfield; yet he's decided to move to Mercedes which traditionally has been the worst car on its tyres...?

angrymoby

361 posts

85 months

Friday 5th October 2012
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DanDC5 said:
Go back a year though and the reverse is true, Jenson was the only man able to challenge Vettel through most of last year when Hamilton was, relatively speaking, nowhere to be seen.
I wouldn't call being 122 points adrift a 'challenge'

stuttgartmetal

7,354 posts

123 months

Friday 5th October 2012
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I tought Massa bounced back.

coetzeeh

1,563 posts

143 months

Friday 5th October 2012
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stuttgartmetal said:
I tought Massa bounced back.
no the spring did

are you Irish btw?

smile

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

162 months

Friday 5th October 2012
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Vocal Minority said:
And naturally it has to boil down to Button v Hamilton doesn't it? wink

I prefer Button personally, but I believe that Hamilton is the quicker*. Your head being in the right place is part of being the better competitor (note not driver), and in 2011 Hamilton was out-competed. - But if his head is in the right place - and after a team move it may well be - he will be a better competitor I expect.

  • Button has ALWAYS struggled for consistency. Not sure what his issue was in the middle part of this season, but it was certainly something.
Does it? Why mention him then? People often like to compare, as you did, but seem to think as I stated. Hamilton does well, it is Hamilton. Hamilton does badly then it is the car. It seems to be the inverse for Button, and excuses for when he did beat Hamilton are plenty, but normally how terrible emotional period. They are all drivers, and they all have to deal with exactly the same stresses in life. How they deal with it is all part and parcel of being a driver.

heebeegeetee

23,823 posts

155 months

Saturday 6th October 2012
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TheHeretic said:
Does it? Why mention him then? People often like to compare, as you did, but seem to think as I stated. Hamilton does well, it is Hamilton. Hamilton does badly then it is the car. It seems to be the inverse for Button, and excuses for when he did beat Hamilton are plenty, but normally how terrible emotional period. They are all drivers, and they all have to deal with exactly the same stresses in life. How they deal with it is all part and parcel of being a driver.
And what if they don't?

To be fair though, Hamilton has done what a few drivers have done in recent years - left McLaren, seemingly because they're not happy. Its now Montoya, Raikkonenen, Alonso and Hamilton that have left in recent times. That's a list of pretty good names.

MGJohn

10,203 posts

90 months

Saturday 6th October 2012
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heebeegeetee said:
TheHeretic said:
Does it? Why mention him then? People often like to compare, as you did, but seem to think as I stated. Hamilton does well, it is Hamilton. Hamilton does badly then it is the car. It seems to be the inverse for Button, and excuses for when he did beat Hamilton are plenty, but normally how terrible emotional period. They are all drivers, and they all have to deal with exactly the same stresses in life. How they deal with it is all part and parcel of being a driver.
And what if they don't?

To be fair though, Hamilton has done what a few drivers have done in recent years - left McLaren, seemingly because they're not happy. Its now Montoya, Raikkonenen, Alonso and Hamilton that have left in recent times. That's a list of pretty good names.
Any 'bad' names that drove for Mclaren ? ... wink

Sir Bagalot

3,933 posts

88 months

Saturday 6th October 2012
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I haven't read the whole of this thread, life is too short.

I'm a Lewis fan. When he hit the screens he was a breath of fresh air. A racer. Thank fk for that after the years of MS.

If only he would of learn't to keep his personal and professional life seperate. Not always helped by his team.

In the past 18-24 months he's become boring. Yes, some races he shows his absolute brillance. You think thank fk he has joined back up with Fred as the only real two racers in the game. Then he goes off the boil again.

During those 18-24 months we have slowly learn't that Brand Hamilton appears to be more important than racing.

During his recent interview one point really stood out for me. He hadn't shown Ron Dennis respect by speaking to him face to face about his plans to move. Whether he was his boss or not, they have a long working relationship, and to me he should of shown him the respect due.

Shame on you Lewis. Shame on you.

revrange

1,074 posts

91 months

Saturday 6th October 2012
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think it will prove a good move. you can't bet again guys like ross brawn in the long haul, they get it right. Also Brawn is a past master at che**** i mean getting things past the FIA smile And 2014 will throw up plenty of chances for that i am sure.

I think Hamilton needed a change from Mclaren, and Mclaren will hurt next year with out Mercedes money and having to pay for the engines. Interesting that Haug said mercedes were paying part of Hamiltons wages, so its not just Mclaren suddenly have another 15 million to spend on the car

fact is its brilliant to win 1 in 4 races but championships are what it boils down too, and since 2008 they just haven't been good enough.

I like Mclaren and I like Hamilton, is sad to seem them part, but who knows in the future he might head back there.

ajprice

12,687 posts

103 months

Saturday 6th October 2012
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I watched the interview on the BBC qualifying highlights earlier. Going to Merc for the challenge is completely understandable for him after having got comfy at McLaren. I hope it goes well for him.

baz1985

3,432 posts

152 months

Saturday 6th October 2012
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I was really surprised that he hadn't spoken to Uncle Ron prior to signing for Merc. Lets see how he gets on at Merc...'with the monkeys at the back'...!

Personally, I think Brawn and his crew are a bit over-rated...in 5 yrs...one title winning car...and that was hardly dominant post mid-season 2009. Three years with the Merc budget...diddly squat...it appears Rory Byrne was a very significant factor at the Scuderia.
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