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vonuber

6,500 posts

53 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Gaz. said:
Can you really not see that the MP4-24 that won two races in the second half of the season was heavily developed from the original car that was at the bottom of the time sheets in winter testing and scored barely a dozen points in the first half of the 2009 season?
Lewis was DSQ (from 3rd, liegate), 7, 6, 4, 9, 12, 13, 16, 18 in the first 9 races. I would say that arguably he was poor midseason - Turkey to Germany - and that was only for 4 races. He went on to go 1, 2, Ret, 12, 1, 3, 3, Ret.
Rolling around in 18th permanently would be a poor car.

But meh, it doesn't really matter, just annoys me how people call that McLaren 'a dog' or a poor car. Poor by their consistent front row standards yes, but hardly slow.

Gaz.

50,483 posts

139 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
vonuber said:
Gaz. said:
Can you really not see that the MP4-24 that won two races in the second half of the season was heavily developed from the original car that was at the bottom of the time sheets in winter testing and scored barely a dozen points in the first half of the 2009 season?
Lewis was DSQ (from 3rd, liegate), 7, 6, 4, 9, 12, 13, 16, 18 in the first 9 races. I would say that arguably he was poor midseason - Turkey to Germany - and that was only for 4 races. He went on to go 1, 2, Ret, 12, 1, 3, 3, Ret.
Rolling around in 18th permanently would be a poor car.

But meh, it doesn't really matter, just annoys me how people call that McLaren 'a dog' or a poor car. Poor by their consistent front row standards yes, but hardly slow.
Yet he qualified: 15th, 13th, 9th, 5th, 14th, 16th, 16th, 19th out of 20 on average 1.5 seconds off the pace of the front row and excludes penalties (his or others). It was slow.

MGJohn

8,591 posts

71 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
vonuber said:
Gaz. said:
Can you really not see that the MP4-24 that won two races in the second half of the season was heavily developed from the original car that was at the bottom of the time sheets in winter testing and scored barely a dozen points in the first half of the 2009 season?
Lewis was DSQ (from 3rd, liegate), 7, 6, 4, 9, 12, 13, 16, 18 in the first 9 races. I would say that arguably he was poor midseason - Turkey to Germany - and that was only for 4 races. He went on to go 1, 2, Ret, 12, 1, 3, 3, Ret.
Rolling around in 18th permanently would be a poor car.

But meh, it doesn't really matter, just annoys me how people call that McLaren 'a dog' or a poor car. Poor by their consistent front row standards yes, but hardly slow.
.
What you fail miserably to appreciate here on PH vonuber ... smile ( yes, not serious here about that failure bit .. hehe ) ... is that where Hamilton and Alonso are concerned, it is ALWAYS the car that underperforms, NEVER the driver. No exceptions. They are THEE driving Gods and thus flawless. rolleyes Conversely where Button, Schumacher, Vettel and a few others are concerned, the reverse is ALWAYS the case.

... wink

Use Psychology

11,327 posts

80 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Generally speaking alonso and Hamilton are quicker than their team mates, hence you can see when it's the car that is slow and when it's the driver.

DuncanM

2,550 posts

167 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Use Psychology said:
Generally speaking alonso and Hamilton are quicker than their team mates, hence you can see when it's the car that is slow and when it's the driver.
I agree.

John, Surely this is clear in particular with regards to Alonso?

Button has done way better against Hamilton than most people would have predicted and is an excellent driver. However, half of this season he has been way off the pace in the same car as Lewis has been putting on pole.

Vettel is similar to Alonso in the fact he gets the most out of his car on the Sunday even after a poor qualy session.
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MGJohn

8,591 posts

71 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Generally speaking .... most people ... wink

Got that right.

Just heard BBC R5Live newscast ~ Michael Schumacher crashed out ... apparently ... nothing else and no other drivers mentioned ... perhaps Di Resta is already past it ... and not worth a mention .... smile

Alonso choses or vetoes his NO.2 driver. Hamilton has had far more experience always driving top kit than Button has.

Put Vettel or Button in the second Ferrari ( if the two cars truly are equal ) and Alonso would not appear so superior to his team mate as he does with the current one. Failure to see that is .. Failure.

Equal cars .... Yeah ... right.

Edited by MGJohn on Friday 5th October 09:47

DuncanM

2,550 posts

167 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
MGJohn said:
Generally speaking .... most people ... wink

Got that right.

Just heard BBC R5Live newscast ~ Michael Schumacher crashed out ... apparently ... nothing else and no other drivers mentioned ... perhaps Di Resta is already past it ... and not worth a mention .... smile

Alonso choses or vetoes his NO.2 driver. Hamilton has had far more experience always driving top kit than Button has.

Put Vettel or Button in the second Ferrari ( if the two cars truly are equal ) and Alonso would not appear so superior to his team mate as he does with the current one. Failure to see that is .. Failure.

Equal cars .... Yeah ... right.

Edited by MGJohn on Friday 5th October 09:47
Why do you keep mentioning Vettel?

"Equal cars .... Yeah ... right."

Is this really your argument for Massa being so much slower than Alonso?


Bedazzled

8,378 posts

109 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
DuncanM said:
Why do you keep mentioning Vettel?

"Equal cars .... Yeah ... right."

Is this really your argument for Massa being so much slower than Alonso?

I don't think there's evidence for Massa or Webber's cars being inferior, I can only remember one front wing debacle at RBR. It's always the car, but wait... Vettel won in a Toro Rosso, in fact he could have won twice but for a safety car incident, iirc.

MGJohn

8,591 posts

71 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
DuncanM said:
MGJohn said:
Generally speaking .... most people ... wink

Got that right.

Just heard BBC R5Live newscast ~ Michael Schumacher crashed out ... apparently ... nothing else and no other drivers mentioned ... perhaps Di Resta is already past it ... and not worth a mention .... smile

Alonso choses or vetoes his NO.2 driver. Hamilton has had far more experience always driving top kit than Button has.

Put Vettel or Button in the second Ferrari ( if the two cars truly are equal ) and Alonso would not appear so superior to his team mate as he does with the current one. Failure to see that is .. Failure.

Equal cars .... Yeah ... right.
Why do you keep mentioning Vettel?

"Equal cars .... Yeah ... right."

Is this really your argument for Massa being so much slower than Alonso?
Massa has not been the same since that spring in the face incident. Still pretty useful though and no two cars are ever really the same....

Why not mention the younger DOUBLE F1 Champion or Button? Either alongside the 'Driving God' in an equal red car instead of post-spring in the face Massa would be a much more reliable measure of Alonso. He would never allow it of course. It's almost certainly part of his contract.

Maybe that young whipper-snapper Hamilton when they were both employed by McLaren was an unreliable yardstick after all and Hamilton was simply lucky and Alonso unlucky.

That's the way I see it. Put Alonso on your high pedestal if you so chose... include me out.
.



DuncanM

2,550 posts

167 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
MGJohn said:
Massa has not been the same since that spring in the face incident. Still pretty useful though and no two cars are ever really the same....

Why not mention the younger DOUBLE F1 Champion or Button? Either alongside the 'Driving God' in an equal red car instead of post-spring in the face Massa would be a much more reliable measure of Alonso. He would never allow it of course. It's almost certainly part of his contract.

Maybe that young whipper-snapper Hamilton when they were both employed by McLaren was an unreliable yardstick after all and Hamilton was simply lucky and Alonso unlucky.

That's the way I see it. Put Alonso on your high pedestal if you so chose... include me out.
.
I think you've misunderstood me.

I ask why you keep mentioning Vettel because I can't see anyone questioning his outstanding pace?

Typically most opinions are that Alonso, Hamilton and Vettel are the quickest drivers in F1 at present.

I haven't put Alonso on a pedestal in any of my posts but I will say that this year he has been exceptional at getting good results from poor qualy positions.

Slightly back OT, Nico v Lewis will be very interesting imo, as will Button v Perez.


vonuber

6,500 posts

53 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
DuncanM said:
I ask why you keep mentioning Vettel because I can't see anyone questioning his outstanding pace?
Really? It's a fairly constant theme.

DanDC5

9,158 posts

55 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
DuncanM said:
Button has done way better against Hamilton than most people would have predicted and is an excellent driver. However, half of this season he has been way off the pace in the same car as Lewis has been putting on pole.

.
Go back a year though and the reverse is true, Jenson was the only man able to challenge Vettel through most of last year when Hamilton was, relatively speaking, nowhere to be seen.

hora

19,245 posts

99 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Is this taken out of context or seriously how he answered/means?

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/hamilton-says-s...

doogz

23,495 posts

75 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
hora said:
Is this taken out of context or seriously how he answered/means?

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/hamilton-says-s...
"Hamilton says no to Schumacher backroom role at Mercedes"

and

"But when asked whether he was expecting Schumacher to remain in the background, Hamilton said quite simply and emphatically: "No.""

aren't really the same thing.

Vocal Minority

4,120 posts

40 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
DanDC5 said:
DuncanM said:
Button has done way better against Hamilton than most people would have predicted and is an excellent driver. However, half of this season he has been way off the pace in the same car as Lewis has been putting on pole.

.
Go back a year though and the reverse is true, Jenson was the only man able to challenge Vettel through most of last year when Hamilton was, relatively speaking, nowhere to be seen.
I reckon, on balance, that Hamilton has been smart here. People say that he has swapped a championship winning car for a non championship winning car. Well when was the last time he won the championship in that McLaren?! Now that has obviously been for a number of reasons of both the teams making and also Hamiltons making (I find it bemusing how so many people can insist it is exclusively one or the other...).

2011 was cited above, when Lewis' head clearly went AWOL for whatever reason (not saying Button didn't do a bang up job - but we all know the gap is closer than that) - I think Hamilton NEEDS the change of scenery, if the relationship is not at its best then he needs a better environment to get the best out of himself, just like everyone.

Point 2 is that all the designers, including everyone's favourite Adrian newey, say 2014 is going to be all about engines. Who makes the best engine and have for a while?

So he may see it as investing a year of his time (2013) in a real championship tilt in 2014.

Not nearly as catastrophic as some think IMHO.

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

143 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Vocal Minority said:
2011 was cited above, when Lewis' head clearly went AWOL for whatever reason (not saying Button didn't do a bang up job - but we all know the gap is closer than that) - I think Hamilton NEEDS the change of scenery, if the relationship is not at its best then he needs a better environment to get the best out of himself, just like everyone.
So when he is beaten, it is because he has issues. When he is doing the beating it is cos the other guy isn't as good. Gotcha.;)

I think that Hamilton has reached a plateau. Whether he can increase that plateau at Mercedes is an interesting part of next season, along with how he does against Rosberg.

hora

19,245 posts

99 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
doogz said:
"Hamilton says no to Schumacher backroom role at Mercedes"

and

"But when asked whether he was expecting Schumacher to remain in the background, Hamilton said quite simply and emphatically: "No.""

aren't really the same thing.
Ah, thats clarity. Thanks

Vocal Minority

4,120 posts

40 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
TheHeretic said:
Vocal Minority said:
2011 was cited above, when Lewis' head clearly went AWOL for whatever reason (not saying Button didn't do a bang up job - but we all know the gap is closer than that) - I think Hamilton NEEDS the change of scenery, if the relationship is not at its best then he needs a better environment to get the best out of himself, just like everyone.
So when he is beaten, it is because he has issues. When he is doing the beating it is cos the other guy isn't as good. Gotcha.;)

And naturally it has to boil down to Button v Hamilton doesn't it? wink

I prefer Button personally, but I believe that Hamilton is the quicker*. Your head being in the right place is part of being the better competitor (note not driver), and in 2011 Hamilton was out-competed. - But if his head is in the right place - and after a team move it may well be - he will be a better competitor I expect.

  • Button has ALWAYS struggled for consistency. Not sure what his issue was in the middle part of this season, but it was certainly something.

Bedazzled

8,378 posts

109 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
doogz said:
...But when asked whether he was expecting Schumacher to remain in the background, Hamilton said quite simply and emphatically: "No."
Less dramatic than the headline, but quite interesting all the same.

Personally I think the tyres-made-of-cheese era has screwed Lewis over, his diehard fans like to point to the odd race where he actually managed them better than Jenson, but on the whole I don't think they suit his driving style (or Schuey's / Webber's, for that matter). With the old tyres and the way Lewis was able to chuck the car about I think he might have dominated rather than spending his time crashing in the midfield; yet he's decided to move to Mercedes which traditionally has been the worst car on its tyres...?

angrymoby

219 posts

66 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
DanDC5 said:
Go back a year though and the reverse is true, Jenson was the only man able to challenge Vettel through most of last year when Hamilton was, relatively speaking, nowhere to be seen.
I wouldn't call being 122 points adrift a 'challenge'
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