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Hamilton to Mercedes

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TheHeretic

73,668 posts

164 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
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Well, that may be so, but as things stand, in the McLaren, and the 3 season they have been together, LH and JB are quite even. Like it or loathe it, but same machinery, and that is how the cookie crumbles. Of course you argue 'car' in 2008, as Lewis had a fairly weak team mate. Something he hasn't had since. Either way, very even, no matter how you cut it.

Bitofbully

394 posts

48 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
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hora said:
BAR and Honda were big budget.

Anyway we will see next year. I bet Perez matches JB. Can you tell I dont rate him? Bar the double diffuser he would never have won a title.
That can be said for most world champions, though.

Pretty much every year, someone pulls out an advantage in their car.

Look at how Hill and Mansell won their titles - they did it in cars which were so far ahead of the rest of the field, it was almost like they were in a different formula.

How about Senna - his first title was in the MP4/4, which was the most dominant car in F1 history - then you have MSC with all the advantages he had, especially at Ferrari, or maybe Vettel isn't a worthy champion, as Newey has worked his magic at Red Bull - consistently producing cars which are visibly quicker than everyone else (and this became apparent in JB's title year, too).

Every world title is part car and part driver - to dismiss some drivers as only achieving due to their car, whilst praising those who have also had a car advantage smacks of fan-boi-ism.

Clevers

1,118 posts

110 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
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vonuber said:
It's all a moot point. Vettel is clearly the best of his generation.
No, Adrian is the best of Vettel's generation.

Aero has become too dominant in F1.....we need to go backwards to get better racing.

Cheese Mechanic

3,157 posts

78 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
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tyrewrecker said:
Point?
Obvious unless you are retarded.

AreOut

2,028 posts

70 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
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we need manual transmission and driver controlled variable angle wings

also V8 twin turbo engines with ~2000 hp and tyres capable of enduring that for a half an hour
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SystemParanoia

10,772 posts

107 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
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and single use 3 sec rocket packs biggrin

Ozzie Osmond

20,678 posts

155 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
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Clevers said:
No, Adrian is the best of Vettel's generation.
I simply do not understand why so many people deny the obviously immense talents of (a) Vettel, and (b) Alonso. In each case, their team-mates are far from shabby yet regularly beaten.

The reason Mr hamilton walks about with such a long face is he's painfully aware that he's not (yet) a member of the "big boys" F1 club. Whether Mercedes can grant him access remains to be seen.

heebeegeetee

24,074 posts

157 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
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Bitofbully said:
WTF?!

Since JB arrived at McLaren, he and Hamilton are pretty much on exactly the same number of points and wins. Hamilton does have a massive advantage on qualifying positions - but races are won on Sunday, where JB often has the upper hand with great tactics and / or looking after his car better. There's also the minor point that JB is better at building a team of people around him to help get the best from the car - and also seems to have the edge when it comes to developing cars.

I think the JB / SP combination is much stronger than the LH / NR combination - as things stand, only Red Bull have a stronger driving pairing than McLaren in 2013 - although if Massa has come back on form, then the pairing with Alonso is as strong as any other on the grid.
Nevertheless, before Hamilton their previous champion was Mika Hakkinen, and before him it was Ayrton Senna. McLaren haven't won anything like as much as they could/should have. They have been far more successful at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.



TheHeretic said:
Career stats? If you want to compare like for like, you have to do it for the time they have been in the same team, surely?
Why? At comparative times in their respective careers, JB was being sacked by his management and not having a great deal of interest shown in him elsewhere, whilst LH is fought over by two of the top teams in the sport.

I think JB is a great driver at the moment, but there was definitely a period when management was less than enamoured by JB's love for his toys and new-found wealth.

Clevers

1,118 posts

110 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
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Ozzie Osmond said:
I simply do not understand why so many people deny the obviously immense talents of (a) Vettel, and (b) Alonso. In each case, their team-mates are far from shabby yet regularly beaten.

The reason Mr hamilton walks about with such a long face is he's painfully aware that he's not (yet) a member of the "big boys" F1 club. Whether Mercedes can grant him access remains to be seen.
I am not arguing with you. Vettel clearly is top bracket....as evidenced by how far he is in front of Webber in the same metal. However, I rather suspect that both Alonso and Hamilton would be enjoying a similar run of results to Seb in recent seasons had they had the good fortune to sit in a car with aero design by Adrian Newey.

Newey should be banned from working in F1 (JOKE)....

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

164 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
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heebeegeetee said:
Why? At comparative times in their respective careers, JB was being sacked by his management and not having a great deal of interest shown in him elsewhere, whilst LH is fought over by two of the top teams in the sport.

I think JB is a great driver at the moment, but there was definitely a period when management was less than enamoured by JB's love for his toys and new-found wealth.
Oh, OK. LH is far superior to JB then. Why they are so even after 3 seasons is a bit of a mystery then? I wonder how that is explained away? I presume JB's playboy years will never mean he can actually be as good as his teammate.

ajprice

12,868 posts

105 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
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2007 - Hamilton and Alonso on equal points in the same car.
2008 - Hamilton won the championship
2009 - Brawn got the jump, McLaren car wasn't so good. If Hamilton/Alonso/Vettel/Webber were in the Brawn they probably would have won with it.
2010/11 - Newey and Red Bull got the jump. If Hamilton/Alonso/Vettel/Webber were in that car they probably would have won with it.
2012 - No team has got the jump, it's been down to reliability, tyres and the Grosjean/Maldonado team effort to be in the BTCC next year.

The majority of what's needed these days to win is to be in the right car. Would Alonso/Vettel etc have won the championship in the 2009 McLaren? Not likely. Would Button, Webber or Massa have won what Vettel won in a Newey Red Bull? Probably.

Edited by ajprice on Sunday 7th October 21:50

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

164 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
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yes Agree with most of that.

Bitofbully

394 posts

48 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
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heebeegeetee said:
Bitofbully said:
WTF?!

Since JB arrived at McLaren, he and Hamilton are pretty much on exactly the same number of points and wins. Hamilton does have a massive advantage on qualifying positions - but races are won on Sunday, where JB often has the upper hand with great tactics and / or looking after his car better. There's also the minor point that JB is better at building a team of people around him to help get the best from the car - and also seems to have the edge when it comes to developing cars.

I think the JB / SP combination is much stronger than the LH / NR combination - as things stand, only Red Bull have a stronger driving pairing than McLaren in 2013 - although if Massa has come back on form, then the pairing with Alonso is as strong as any other on the grid.
Nevertheless, before Hamilton their previous champion was Mika Hakkinen, and before him it was Ayrton Senna. McLaren haven't won anything like as much as they could/should have. They have been far more successful at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
Yet, it could be claimed he won it by default that year - Massa lost on one more retirement (2 vs 1), Kimi couldn't be bothered most weekends - and it took a massive stroke of luck on the last corner of the last race of the season for McLaren to take it.



TheHeretic said:
Career stats? If you want to compare like for like, you have to do it for the time they have been in the same team, surely?
heebeegeetee said:
Why? At comparative times in their respective careers, JB was being sacked by his management and not having a great deal of interest shown in him elsewhere, whilst LH is fought over by two of the top teams in the sport.

I think JB is a great driver at the moment, but there was definitely a period when management was less than enamoured by JB's love for his toys and new-found wealth.
He made some silly mistakes, but he wasn't signed and looked after by one team from a young age, he wasn't given a title contending car from the outset and wasn't made no. 1 driver in just his 2nd season, either.

Bitofbully

394 posts

48 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
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Clevers said:
I am not arguing with you. Vettel clearly is top bracket....as evidenced by how far he is in front of Webber in the same metal. However, I rather suspect that both Alonso and Hamilton would be enjoying a similar run of results to Seb in recent seasons had they had the good fortune to sit in a car with aero design by Adrian Newey.

Newey should be banned from working in F1 (JOKE)....
If half the field had been no. 1 driver at Red Bull over the past 3 years, they'd also have won the title!


heebeegeetee

24,074 posts

157 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
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TheHeretic said:
Oh, OK. LH is far superior to JB then. Why they are so even after 3 seasons is a bit of a mystery then? I wonder how that is explained away?
In my opinion because both drivers find themselves at different stages of their careers, and whereas perhaps JB is quite happy at McL it seems clear to me that LH isn't. I think LH's career has been badly mis-managed by McL and I hope/expect he'll flourish elsewhere.

The careers of LH and JB may well end for both on one championship each, but right now JB is nearer the end of his career than LH is. I don't see any McL driver winning a championship without a significant car advantage due to poor team management.

We need to wait until the end of LH's career to get a true comparative perspective.


Bitofbully

394 posts

48 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
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heebeegeetee said:
We need to wait until the end of LH's career to get a true comparative perspective.
Only if LH now spends the best part of a decade kicking around near the back of the field in rubbish cars.

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

164 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
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Ah. More excuses for LH then? wink He's not happy, he's not this, he's not that... he may well discover what it is like to be a mid field runner next year, and maybe further on than that, who knows. Let's see how happy he is then. LH has as Bully said, had the pleasure of a top team, and a good car from the get go, certainly one that could win races, and challenge. jenson did not. Maybe they will mirror each other, with Button finishing at a top team, and Lewis finishing his career at some midfield, lower end teams? Who knows. However, if you want to compare driver A with driver B, it is quite handy if they are driving the same car, for the same team at the same time. You CAN use points scored, championship positions, and so on to give you a very good indication. The indication would be that they are very equally matched drivers.

I struggle to see how that can really be argued against.

Stats since 2010 as teammates.

JB Points whilst at Macca = 615
Lewis Points whilst at Macca = 609

JB Average championship position whilst at Macca = 4.33
LH average championship position whilst at Macca = 4.33

JB wins whilst at Macca = 7
LH wins whilst at Macca = 9

JB Podiums at Macca = 24
LH Podiums at Macca = 21

JB fastest laps = 5
LH fastest laps = 8

Could you get a more even pairing?



Edited by TheHeretic on Sunday 7th October 22:00

heebeegeetee

24,074 posts

157 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
quotequote all
Bitofbully said:
Only if LH now spends the best part of a decade kicking around near the back of the field in rubbish cars *whilst no-one wants to sign him*.

SeeFive

5,289 posts

142 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
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The driver debate on here never ceases to amaze me, and I can be as guilty as the any other poster.

But seriously, apart from a few obvious howlers over the years, they are all pretty good but have different styles and personalities. Was Gilles a better driver than Alain? Was Nigel better than Ayrton? Was Ayrton better than Alain? Is Jenson better than [insert driver of different style here].

After close to 30 seconds of deep analysis, ISTM that it's all about what we appreciate as a style that appeals to us personally. Some drivers get the job done with a flourish, others with a less flamboyant style, each of which some will appreciate, and others won't. Corporate cramping in the media does not help - we hear what they are told to say in the main. We then read lots of accurate stuff, and hear lots of irrelevant / inaccurate crap from elsewhere. Then we spend far too much time on here trying to convince each other to change our opinions to those of others.

I'd liken it to trying to convince someone that rough sex is better than romantic sex. It just isn't gonna happen too often (convincing them that is, not either style of act itself) wink

Anyway, on that note, time for an early night I think. I'll get the cheese grater handy...

CiderwithCerbie

1,420 posts

176 months

Sunday 7th October 2012
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ajprice said:
2007 - Hamilton and Alonso on equal points in the same car.
2008 - Hamilton won the championship
2009 - Brawn got the jump, McLaren car wasn't so good. If Hamilton/Alonso/Vettel/Webber were in the Brawn they probably would have won with it.
2010/11 - Newey and Red Bull got the jump. If Hamilton/Alonso/Vettel/Webber were in that car they probably would have won with it.
2012 - No team has got the jump, it's been down to reliability, tyres and the Grosjean/Maldonado team effort to be in the BTCC next year.

The majority of what's needed these days to win is to be in the right car. Would Alonso/Vettel etc have won the championship in the 2009 McLaren? Not likely. Would Button, Webber or Massa have won what Vettel won in a Newey Red Bull? Probably.
Edited by ajprice on Sunday 7th October 21:50
OK all that accepted, what have RB and Newey done in the 2012 mid-season break to manage to pull out a 0.5 - 1.0 sec advantage over the other improving teams. Bendy front wings aside what have they/has he seen that others have missed (given - McLaren, Sauber and Force I, some improvement, Ferrari and Lotus - static, Merc apparently going backwards...) Has anyone done a detailed technical analysis of the season's obvious aero-changes??

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