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FiF

24,101 posts

138 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Twincam16 said:
I see absolutely no reason why it couldn't be as big a spectator/TV motor sport as the BTCC.
Don't agree, and this might be controversial, but I think the BTCC with simple shortish races, plus an element of contact motorsport appeals to the Playstation/Xbox/etc generation.

Yes I am being snobby about it.

Some of them don't have the attention span to understand a proper 5 day endurance rally.

Runs and hides behind sofa.

Munter

25,370 posts

128 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
FiF said:
Don't agree, and this might be controversial, but I think the BTCC with simple shortish races, plus an element of contact motorsport appeals to the Playstation/Xbox/etc generation.

Yes I am being snobby about it.

Some of them don't have the attention span to understand a proper 5 day endurance rally.

Runs and hides behind sofa.
I agree. BTCC is about a quick "crash bang wallop, taaa dahhh a winner!!!".

Problem is rally has tried to get closer to that short kind of thing. But not made it. So it doesn't appeal to those who can understand a proper 5 day rally, or those who want a short burst of excitement. It will never be BTCC type racing. It should go after it's own proper audience.

EDLT

14,723 posts

93 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Surely turn the WRC into "Crash, bang, wallop, ta daa winner!" would end up with Rallycross, which isn't that popular either (in the UK, and most of the world). Their races are only 3-4 laps, BTCC is practically an endurance event compared to that. Not that rallycross is bad, the events that occasionally turn up on Channel 4 at unadvertised o'clock are still pretty good.

WRC will need to go through quite a long 'investment period' before we see a rise in spectator numbers, which I'm not sure the organisers are willing to do.

Mr_Thyroid

1,023 posts

114 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Is it widely covered in France/Finland?

If Loeb / Hirvonen were british would we this thread exist? I don't know.

Fantuzzi

3,217 posts

33 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
coppice said:
Fantuzzi said:
From a personal point, I have never cared for rallying much at all, mainly due to the rather ordinary cars used. While I understand that is rather the point, seeing more sporting cars as a base would attract me moreso, although I understand this is a rather old comment on rallying as is - 'make em RWD, add Ferraris Porsche' ect ect.

Thats not to say that I would make rallying a GT comp, rather add another category. Also rather than 'super cars' Id like to see more gt86, 370z, mid range coupes used.
Eh ? Not sure how far back your knowledge of rallying goes but let me see- Stratos, 911, Escort Mk2 (if you havent seen and heard one of these in full cry you have not lived), a host of bonkers Gp B cars, Imprezas , Evos etc. At national level (forget all the WRC crap ) you can still see and hear amazing cars in fantastic surroundings. But like all motor sport , if you want to know what it is like it is not about watching telly it is about being there live.
Well thats my point, I wasnt around for the group B cars, which I am rather found of, nor the 911s or stratos, again enormous nerd on the stratos.

If a cayman was blazing around a greek gravel road in full wide arch glory, I would defifnatley watch
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FiF

24,101 posts

138 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Fantuzzi said:
coppice said:
Fantuzzi said:
From a personal point, I have never cared for rallying much at all, mainly due to the rather ordinary cars used. While I understand that is rather the point, seeing more sporting cars as a base would attract me moreso, although I understand this is a rather old comment on rallying as is - 'make em RWD, add Ferraris Porsche' ect ect.

Thats not to say that I would make rallying a GT comp, rather add another category. Also rather than 'super cars' Id like to see more gt86, 370z, mid range coupes used.
Eh ? Not sure how far back your knowledge of rallying goes but let me see- Stratos, 911, Escort Mk2 (if you havent seen and heard one of these in full cry you have not lived), a host of bonkers Gp B cars, Imprezas , Evos etc. At national level (forget all the WRC crap ) you can still see and hear amazing cars in fantastic surroundings. But like all motor sport , if you want to know what it is like it is not about watching telly it is about being there live.
Well thats my point, I wasnt around for the group B cars, which I am rather found of, nor the 911s or stratos, again enormous nerd on the stratos.

If a cayman was blazing around a greek gravel road in full wide arch glory, I would defifnatley watch

Twincam16

27,646 posts

145 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
FiF said:
Twincam16 said:
I see absolutely no reason why it couldn't be as big a spectator/TV motor sport as the BTCC.
Don't agree, and this might be controversial, but I think the BTCC with simple shortish races, plus an element of contact motorsport appeals to the Playstation/Xbox/etc generation.

Yes I am being snobby about it.

Some of them don't have the attention span to understand a proper 5 day endurance rally.

Runs and hides behind sofa.
I see what you're getting at, but I was referring to the channel and presenting style (possibly even the same presenting team) rather than the race format.

Actually I love the BTCC. Far more accessible than F1 and at the moment it's as exciting as it was in the '90s.

What I reckon would work best would be something along the lines of the old Top Gear Rally Report with Tony Mason. It used to be on about 8ish the day after the rally (with the night stages live if there were any). It was on for an hour and the audience that watched it was pretty-much the same people watching Top Gear (which, OK, was more along the lines of its 5th Gear format, but it still featured Clarkson and was still quite tongue-in-cheek) and the BTCC coverage of the time (the glory-days of the '90s).

I agree that it might be difficult to cover an entire day of rallying in the way they cover whole days of racing (although I'd love that, but the advantage of the BTCC is that you can drift in and out of watching it depending on which races you're interested in), but maybe an hour or two of highlights, interviews and the odd feature would be great.

Twincam16

27,646 posts

145 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Fantuzzi said:
coppice said:
Fantuzzi said:
From a personal point, I have never cared for rallying much at all, mainly due to the rather ordinary cars used. While I understand that is rather the point, seeing more sporting cars as a base would attract me moreso, although I understand this is a rather old comment on rallying as is - 'make em RWD, add Ferraris Porsche' ect ect.

Thats not to say that I would make rallying a GT comp, rather add another category. Also rather than 'super cars' Id like to see more gt86, 370z, mid range coupes used.
Eh ? Not sure how far back your knowledge of rallying goes but let me see- Stratos, 911, Escort Mk2 (if you havent seen and heard one of these in full cry you have not lived), a host of bonkers Gp B cars, Imprezas , Evos etc. At national level (forget all the WRC crap ) you can still see and hear amazing cars in fantastic surroundings. But like all motor sport , if you want to know what it is like it is not about watching telly it is about being there live.
Well thats my point, I wasnt around for the group B cars, which I am rather found of, nor the 911s or stratos, again enormous nerd on the stratos.

If a cayman was blazing around a greek gravel road in full wide arch glory, I would defifnatley watch
Sounds like the RGT category, which kicks off properly next year, will be your sort of thing then:










E-B

358 posts

65 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
I remember seeing some of the Gt cars at Chatsworth Hse a couple of years back at a Rallyday.

There was the Aston, and a few Porsches and a Lamborghini too. Very impressed to see them being given a proper pasting.

If you want to see rallying like the 'good ol' days' of Grp B then tak a look at the french Tout terrain championships. A lot of british competitors playing over there.

http://ecuriedescimes.com/en/index.htm

I'm going to go and have a first hand look next season myself.

EDLT

14,723 posts

93 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Mr_Thyroid said:
Is it widely covered in France/Finland?

If Loeb / Hirvonen were british would we this thread exist? I don't know.
Loeb is widely known in France, but thats nothing compared to Finland where rallying is the national sport (nearly).

I don't think we would be having this thread if there was a British driver at the front.

Fantuzzi said:
Well thats my point, I wasnt around for the group B cars, which I am rather found of, nor the 911s or stratos, again enormous nerd on the stratos.

If a cayman was blazing around a greek gravel road in full wide arch glory, I would defifnatley watch
WRC cars can barely cope with the Greek stages, a Cayman would need fairly heavy modification, especially if it ran after the WRC cars had torn up the road.

Edited by EDLT on Friday 5th October 15:45

Tonsko

3,768 posts

102 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
I don't follow it 100%, but from what I gather the ruling body seem to have enacted some rules recently to make it harder for independants to bring their own built cars and join in. I'd like those rules to be repealed, and further, make it easier for privateers to build their own cars and take part.

...and far, far more TV coverage.

EDLT

14,723 posts

93 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
I'd like to see a production-based SUV class, that is what sells these days after all. Maybe manufacturers would be more interested, it makes more sense to show off the all-round capabilities of an Evoque than a Fiesta and most companies already have at least one soft-roader.

We could have a 'big' class too, with Cayenne turbos, Range Rover Sports, BMW X5/6, Audi Q7 and Mercedes ML AMGs.

Twincam16

27,646 posts

145 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Tonsko said:
I don't follow it 100%, but from what I gather the ruling body seem to have enacted some rules recently to make it harder for independants to bring their own built cars and join in. I'd like those rules to be repealed, and further, make it easier for privateers to build their own cars and take part.

...and far, far more TV coverage.
Sounds like the other way round to me. The Group R regulations are bringing back the concept of homologation, so everyone has to start with a road car as a base.

Full explanation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_R

It sounds to me as though R1-R3T will be used for various junior formats, the current ERC/WRC drivers will be in R4/R5, and RGT is like a return to Group B for limited rallies only.

Munter

25,370 posts

128 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Tonsko said:
...and far, far more TV coverage.
People keep saying this.

No channel wants it. Because nobody wants to watch it (compared to other sports/shows). No viewers = no advertising = nobody wants to show it.

You have to make it interesting first. And the current setup just isn't. Make it interesting, and potential viewers go up.

Twincam16

27,646 posts

145 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
EDLT said:
I'd like to see a production-based SUV class, that is what sells these days after all. Maybe manufacturers would be more interested, it makes more sense to show off the all-round capabilities of an Evoque than a Fiesta and most companies already have at least one soft-roader.

We could have a 'big' class too, with Cayenne turbos, Range Rover Sports, BMW X5/6, Audi Q7 and Mercedes ML AMGs.
That'd certainly make sense for the Safari Rally, which I'd definitely bring back. Could make for better road cars too. They'd probably all fall into the R4 category anyway so I see no reason why they couldn't just do this. Since 2003 it's just been part of the African Rally Championship and hasn't really got much coverage or funding, but come to think of it those cars would be better suited to its special-stage/link-road formats than the freakish creations entered in the Paris-Dakar, and the tough terrain would help sell those cars in the areas that are lapping them up - ie the Middle East and China.

Tonsko

3,768 posts

102 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Twincam16 said:
Sounds like the other way round to me. The Group R regulations are bringing back the concept of homologation, so everyone has to start with a road car as a base.

Full explanation here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_R

It sounds to me as though R1-R3T will be used for various junior formats, the current ERC/WRC drivers will be in R4/R5, and RGT is like a return to Group B for limited rallies only.
Aha, well that's good at least. Perhaps my info was a little out of date - I remember reading something a while back that was talking about (on here I think) a particular British privateer who was perhaps being forced out of competing due to a more strict ruleset that effectively was pricing them out.

EDLT

14,723 posts

93 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Twincam16 said:
EDLT said:
I'd like to see a production-based SUV class, that is what sells these days after all. Maybe manufacturers would be more interested, it makes more sense to show off the all-round capabilities of an Evoque than a Fiesta and most companies already have at least one soft-roader.

We could have a 'big' class too, with Cayenne turbos, Range Rover Sports, BMW X5/6, Audi Q7 and Mercedes ML AMGs.
That'd certainly make sense for the Safari Rally, which I'd definitely bring back. Could make for better road cars too. They'd probably all fall into the R4 category anyway so I see no reason why they couldn't just do this. Since 2003 it's just been part of the African Rally Championship and hasn't really got much coverage or funding, but come to think of it those cars would be better suited to its special-stage/link-road formats than the freakish creations entered in the Paris-Dakar, and the tough terrain would help sell those cars in the areas that are lapping them up - ie the Middle East and China.
I think the reason they don't do it already is because, as mentioned earlier in the thread, those that make the rules have some deep issue around big off road cars - like they think everything has to be a sports car or saloon with a microscopic engine because that is the only thing anyone is interested in.

EDIT- I've just thought, Ford could enter the Raptor pretty much without modification. Who wouldn't want to see JML/Solberg trying to thread that down a narrow dirt-track?

Twincam16

27,646 posts

145 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
EDLT said:
Twincam16 said:
EDLT said:
I'd like to see a production-based SUV class, that is what sells these days after all. Maybe manufacturers would be more interested, it makes more sense to show off the all-round capabilities of an Evoque than a Fiesta and most companies already have at least one soft-roader.

We could have a 'big' class too, with Cayenne turbos, Range Rover Sports, BMW X5/6, Audi Q7 and Mercedes ML AMGs.
That'd certainly make sense for the Safari Rally, which I'd definitely bring back. Could make for better road cars too. They'd probably all fall into the R4 category anyway so I see no reason why they couldn't just do this. Since 2003 it's just been part of the African Rally Championship and hasn't really got much coverage or funding, but come to think of it those cars would be better suited to its special-stage/link-road formats than the freakish creations entered in the Paris-Dakar, and the tough terrain would help sell those cars in the areas that are lapping them up - ie the Middle East and China.
I think the reason they don't do it already is because, as mentioned earlier in the thread, those that make the rules have some deep issue around big off road cars - like they think everything has to be a sports car or saloon with a microscopic engine because that is the only thing anyone is interested in.
I see what you mean, although under Group R, the R4 regulations will encompass:

Engine capacity: Greater than 2000cc
Engine type: Turbocharged
Fuel: Petrol
Maximum weight: TBA
Drivetrain: Two or Four Wheel Drive
Homologation requirement: n/a
Championship: WRC-2
Example: Subaru Impreza

The weight limits for the 2013 season are the only thing I can see standing in the way of an SUV competing. However, given that there's no homologation requirement in that category, surely there's nothing stopping a team fitting lightweight body panels.

I suspect the main reason why SUVs aren't really rallied is because they're too top-heavy, the driver is too far from the centre of gravity, and the visibility isn't good enough on narrow forest tracks for a driver to confidently drive down at speed.

However, if we had the Safari as part of the championship, with teams and/or manufacturers allowed to enter multiple cars (as used to be the case - BMC used to rally the entire range, using different cars depending on terrain), you could see them rallied.

Just imagine the Ford team - Fiesta ST for most of the championship, then the drivers jump into a rally-prepared Kuga to do the Safari. The Citroen drivers could use a C-Crosser, I suppose the Mini Countryman is halfway there already, the VW drivers could use a Tiguan, Skoda could use a Yeti, Subaru an XV, Peugeot a 3008, Fiat a Sedici, Dacia is already campaigning the Duster - in fact the only marque competing in the WRC that doesn't have a small SUV is Proton, but I'm sure Lotus could do something bonkers for them, a high-rise Satria Neo or suchlike.

They wouldn't work for every rally or stage, but I can see them making sense on the Safari, and maybe an event in the Australian outback.

Ranger 6

4,922 posts

136 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
E-B said:
...If you want to see rallying like the 'good ol' days' of Grp B then tak a look at the french Tout terrain championships. A lot of british competitors playing over there.

http://ecuriedescimes.com/en/index.htm

I'm going to go and have a first hand look next season myself.
From what I remember (went in the late 80s) that's an excellent event. Easy access to the 'stages' and an adventure in itself. Buggies and production vehicles all mixed into various classes and most importantly it's a spectacle smile

Tonsko

3,768 posts

102 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Munter said:
Tonsko said:
...and far, far more TV coverage.
People keep saying this.

No channel wants it. Because nobody wants to watch it (compared to other sports/shows). No viewers = no advertising = nobody wants to show it.

You have to make it interesting first. And the current setup just isn't. Make it interesting, and potential viewers go up.
I see your point. But I can't stand the adverts - would prefer none!

For the same reason of lack of viewers the BBC won't take it.

Boo, hiss.
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