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Landyphil

48 posts

25 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
One of the main reasons there's few "SUV's" is that the MSA have the following engine limit on all new Stage Log Books.


This is the current madness:

48.2.1. Production Car Engines with a maximum of six
cylinders:
a) Petrol engines with forced induction 2000cc with a
34mm restrictor or 2500cc with a 32mm restrictor,
and diesel engines with forced induction 2500cc
with a 37mm restrictor.
b) Naturally aspirated with more than 2 valves per
cylinder – 3000cc.
c) Naturally aspirated with maximum of 2 valves per
cylinder – 3500cc.
48.2.2. Metro 6R4 2500cc and 2800cc (Single Plenum)
engines complying with MSA Specification, exclusive to
6R4s.
48.2.3. Specialist Competition Engines:
a) Naturally aspirated.
b) No more than four cylinders.
c) No more than four valves per cylinder.
d) Maximum capacity of 2,500cc.


Then just to add even more water on the fire there's the fact that the rules on structural changes are very strict in rallying compared to Proto Class in the British Cross Country side of things. In fact even the SuperProduction class in Cross Country events is too much for rallying.

46.2.4. Cars must retain the original number of, and
location of, driven wheels, Front Wheel Drive (FWD),
Rear Wheel Drive (RWD) or Four Wheel Drive (4WD),
except where a 4WD car, other than a Specialist Rally
Car, is converted to Two Wheel Drive (2WD) without
structural alteration.
46.3. Category 2. Any car not complying with 46.2 that
may be authorised for use at the discretion of the MSA.
46.3.1. Such authorisation will only be granted for cars
which retain the original manufacturer’s
chassis/bodywork/ unitary construction.
46.3.2. Substitution by a space frame chassis will not
be accepted.
46.3.3. Original manufacturer's bodywork must be
utilised.
46.3.4. Any modifications homologated by the FIA may
be incorporated.
46.3.5. Replica copies of manufacturers homologated
body parts/aerodynamic devices will not be accepted.


It's such a shame,


A bit of cross pollination would be no harm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detail...


EDLT

14,713 posts

91 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
It seems daft when a Range Rover is slower than the usual Impreza/Evo despite the massive power advantage. Give them a chunky minimum weight and keep the ride heights at "proper 4x4" levels then they'll never be going fast enough to cause problems (well, no more problems than an ex-WRC car being thrashed by someone with more wallet than skill).

Fantuzzi

3,204 posts

31 months

[news] 
Saturday 6th October 2012 quote quote all
Twincam16 said:
Sounds like the RGT category, which kicks off properly next year, will be your sort of thing then:









You see that looks good!

Will be googling the details.

E-B

356 posts

63 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
EDLT said:
I'd like to see a production-based SUV class, that is what sells these days after all. Maybe manufacturers would be more interested, it makes more sense to show off the all-round capabilities of an Evoque than a Fiesta and most companies already have at least one soft-roader.

We could have a 'big' class too, with Cayenne turbos, Range Rover Sports, BMW X5/6, Audi Q7 and Mercedes ML AMGs.
Man after my own heart.

E-B

356 posts

63 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
EDLT said:
Twincam16 said:
EDLT said:
I'd like to see a production-based SUV class, that is what sells these days after all. Maybe manufacturers would be more interested, it makes more sense to show off the all-round capabilities of an Evoque than a Fiesta and most companies already have at least one soft-roader.

We could have a 'big' class too, with Cayenne turbos, Range Rover Sports, BMW X5/6, Audi Q7 and Mercedes ML AMGs.
That'd certainly make sense for the Safari Rally, which I'd definitely bring back. Could make for better road cars too. They'd probably all fall into the R4 category anyway so I see no reason why they couldn't just do this. Since 2003 it's just been part of the African Rally Championship and hasn't really got much coverage or funding, but come to think of it those cars would be better suited to its special-stage/link-road formats than the freakish creations entered in the Paris-Dakar, and the tough terrain would help sell those cars in the areas that are lapping them up - ie the Middle East and China.
I think the reason they don't do it already is because, as mentioned earlier in the thread, those that make the rules have some deep issue around big off road cars - like they think everything has to be a sports car or saloon with a microscopic engine because that is the only thing anyone is interested in.

EDIT- I've just thought, Ford could enter the Raptor pretty much without modification. Who wouldn't want to see JML/Solberg trying to thread that down a narrow dirt-track?
Me. Because i'd like to see myself driving it.
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rawkyjnr

228 posts

56 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
TV

Simple!


Munter

25,199 posts

126 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
rawkyjnr said:
TV

Simple!
You'd make them wear ladies clothing?

It's certainly a way to tap into an area of viewers previously not targeted.

I can't help feeling it'd drive away some of the existing crowd. Seeing a flash of Solbergs buttocks under a short skirt as he gets out the car might just be too much.

Twincam16

27,646 posts

143 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Munter said:
rawkyjnr said:
TV

Simple!
You'd make them wear ladies clothing?

It's certainly a way to tap into an area of viewers previously not targeted.

I can't help feeling it'd drive away some of the existing crowd. Seeing a flash of Solbergs buttocks under a short skirt as he gets out the car might just be too much.
hehe

However, rawkyjnr's point is very important - as a spectator sport, motorsport hinges on being seen by as many people as is theoretically possible. For rallying, this means a combinations of spectacular action, spectacular scenery, relatively attainable cars (in road trim at least), and a sense of local connection - everyone needs a driver or a team to get behind and 'support'. In this case, as a massive fan of the old Escort RS Cosworth, especially when finished in Michelin Pilot Sport livery and peddled by Francois Delacour, I often find myself cheering on the Fords.

It also needs the largest spread of manufacturers possible. Merging the ERC and WRC and having the cars compete alongside each other (even if they're not in the same classes) would mean that it looks like everyone's in on it and would act like a big advert for hot hatches. It's also how rivalries build up and how the road cars improve as a result. Also, often well-driven cars from lower classes end up challenging those from above, which is always great fun to watch.

Hopefully the new homologation rules should see more people competing and more cars available to do so, but without TV rights, it won't make any kind of impact.

I do wonder whether there is a bit of truth in the whole 'if you build it, they will come' approach. Once the new formats have picked up pace, someone needs to risk it, stick their neck out and put a rallying show on terrestrial TV. Needn't be on a frontline channel, but it needs retrieving from Motors TV obscurity and putting on ITV4, or maybe - here's a thought - on Channel 4 tied in to the extreme-sports programmes they put on for the yoofs.

Actually - how about Channel 5 do what Top Gear used to do and have 5th Gear Rally Report? IIRC there's a new series of 5th Gear starting later this month, it's usually on Fridays at teatime. How about they do another programme in place of one of the repeats (IIRC there's one on Sunday) as a roundup of all the rallying action. VBH and Johnny Smith could probably make a decent job of it as they know what (and who) they're on about.

>>ETA, just realised 5th Gear is now on Quest, part of the Discovery Channel. So yeah, put it on there. It's on Freeview so it'd be widely available to watch.

Bugger. Turns out this means I missed the last series of 5th.

Edited by Twincam16 on Monday 8th October 10:56

ArnageWRC

631 posts

44 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
You make a good point about ‘visibility’ – sport/Rallying is part of the leisure industry – and has been left behind. Very few people know about it – and these casuals are the people needed to attract. I hope there would be highlights on an ITV4/BBC/Ch4 with the dedicated hardcore coverage online, e;g RedBullTV, etc

E-B

356 posts

63 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Rallying and rallycross is getting that Yoof appeal in the USA nowadays courtesy of Ken Block, Travis Pastrana, Faust, et al at the X-Games - which are quite popular here too. We need to suck these younger audiences in. As i mentioned earlier in this thread, more spectators, more entrants, more entrants more cash to organisers, more cash better events, more spectators, better sponsors, better sponsors, more TV time, more tv time more spectators.......


Twincam16

27,646 posts

143 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
ArnageWRC said:
You make a good point about ‘visibility’ – sport/Rallying is part of the leisure industry – and has been left behind. Very few people know about it – and these casuals are the people needed to attract. I hope there would be highlights on an ITV4/BBC/Ch4 with the dedicated hardcore coverage online, e;g RedBullTV, etc
I really cannot get my head around why ITV4 haven't jumped at the opportunity to screen it.

They cover the BTCC, which they admirably do as a full day of motorsport. It could be argued that no-one really wants to watch the Porsche Carrera Cup or the Ginetta Juniors - but they do, and they put on a full 6+ hours of highly watchable telly that pulls in lots of viewers. Obviously it couldn't go on ITV1, because it'd get in the way of Coronation Street and Downton Abbey, but multi-channel formats are made for that sort of thing.

And it must pull in the viewers, because otherwise they'd just bundle together the Touring Car races on their own and present them in an hour-long highlights show at the end of the day. They also have the rights to a chunk of football matches that they could screen if they wanted instead. They don't, which says to me that the audience for televised motorsport is present.

Also, they screen the Isle of Man TT, and they really go to town on it. Nearly every single class is shown from the small-engined stuff and the sidecars right up to the superbikes. Everyone is interviewed, they have documentaries on the riders and teams in between, and again it forms entire days of telly.

I can't see any reason why they can't have a rally show. On days when it clashes with the BTCC and the TT, it can be an hour on after the BTCC coverage. On days where otherwise it'd just be another load of Professionals and Sweeney repeats, they could cover the whole thing live, from the junior categories right up to the WRC/R5/RGT cars, with interviews and mini-documentaries during lulls between stage runs.

y2blade

54,388 posts

100 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
GroundEffect said:
The sport hasn't changed since its hayday, really, but there's one big problem with it:

Sebastien Loeb. He's too good.
He's leaving.

Twincam16

27,646 posts

143 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
E-B said:
Rallying and rallycross is getting that Yoof appeal in the USA nowadays courtesy of Ken Block, Travis Pastrana, Faust, et al at the X-Games - which are quite popular here too. We need to suck these younger audiences in. As i mentioned earlier in this thread, more spectators, more entrants, more entrants more cash to organisers, more cash better events, more spectators, better sponsors, better sponsors, more TV time, more tv time more spectators.......
Precisely! Some might not like Block, but I feel he's instrumental in getting young people into rallying.

There's also the 'Playstation' aspect. Rally games sell by the truckload and things like Colin McRae Dirt have become regular things even years after his death (I bet there are kids playing that game who weren't even around when McRae was rallying). I don't for one minute believe that the kids (and adults!) playing those games don't also want to see it done for real.

Twincam16

27,646 posts

143 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
y2blade said:
GroundEffect said:
The sport hasn't changed since its hayday, really, but there's one big problem with it:

Sebastien Loeb. He's too good.
He's leaving.
Maybe that will help. I remember F1 being very dull when Michael Schumacher was winning everything. Nowadays it's much closer and far more exciting as a result.

However, Schumacher did have an adverse effect on viewing figures. I remember at the height of his powers Bernie Ecclestone bemoaning the lack of spectators at the GERMAN Grand Prix and suggesting that it was Schumacher's fault.

I suspect Loeb has had the same effect on rallying. It's predictably massive in France (hence the Eurosport connection I suspect, which is on terrestrial TV in France), but people are increasingly unbothered elsewhere.

He's not quite as crushingly dominant as he once was - Latvala, Solberg and Ostberg are increasingly nibbling at his lead - but once he's out of the frame the rest of the playing field will look a lot more level.

I also think it's important we get as many manufacturers involved as possible (hence my suggestion that WRC and ERC should merge). The more we have a variety of cars on the stages, the more viewers will feel an affinity with the series. One of the reasons why the BTCC's so popular is because the cars are similar to the ones people drive every day. Given the preponderance of smaller hatches in rallying, I can see it being even more popular among young people who are more likely to own them.

I can't see why people would consider rallying nerdy or boring compared to the BTCC. It's simple to understand and fundamentally exciting - someone driving a car at breakneck speed through a forest trying to get a faster time than everyone else. Given that spectacular crashes are just as likely (into scenery rather than each other, but still...), what's not to like?

Macd355

315 posts

59 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Fantuzzi said:
Twincam16 said:
Sounds like the RGT category, which kicks off properly next year, will be your sort of thing then:









You see that looks good!

Will be googling the details.
Don't forget these
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEOKck7WWvU

FiF

23,451 posts

136 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Twincam16 said:
ArnageWRC said:
You make a good point about ‘visibility’ – sport/Rallying is part of the leisure industry – and has been left behind. Very few people know about it – and these casuals are the people needed to attract. I hope there would be highlights on an ITV4/BBC/Ch4 with the dedicated hardcore coverage online, e;g RedBullTV, etc
I really cannot get my head around why ITV4 haven't jumped at the opportunity to screen it.

They cover the BTCC, which they admirably do as a full day of motorsport. It could be argued that no-one really wants to watch the Porsche Carrera Cup or the Ginetta Juniors - but they do, and they put on a full 6+ hours of highly watchable telly that pulls in lots of viewers. Obviously it couldn't go on ITV1, because it'd get in the way of Coronation Street and Downton Abbey, but multi-channel formats are made for that sort of thing.

And it must pull in the viewers, because otherwise they'd just bundle together the Touring Car races on their own and present them in an hour-long highlights show at the end of the day. They also have the rights to a chunk of football matches that they could screen if they wanted instead. They don't, which says to me that the audience for televised motorsport is present.

Also, they screen the Isle of Man TT, and they really go to town on it. Nearly every single class is shown from the small-engined stuff and the sidecars right up to the superbikes. Everyone is interviewed, they have documentaries on the riders and teams in between, and again it forms entire days of telly.

I can't see any reason why they can't have a rally show. On days when it clashes with the BTCC and the TT, it can be an hour on after the BTCC coverage. On days where otherwise it'd just be another load of Professionals and Sweeney repeats, they could cover the whole thing live, from the junior categories right up to the WRC/R5/RGT cars, with interviews and mini-documentaries during lulls between stage runs.
I'd reckon that rally coverage is a hell of a lot more expensive than coverage of circuit racing if measured in £ per suitable and interesting footage.

Twincam16

27,646 posts

143 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
FiF said:
Twincam16 said:
ArnageWRC said:
You make a good point about ‘visibility’ – sport/Rallying is part of the leisure industry – and has been left behind. Very few people know about it – and these casuals are the people needed to attract. I hope there would be highlights on an ITV4/BBC/Ch4 with the dedicated hardcore coverage online, e;g RedBullTV, etc
I really cannot get my head around why ITV4 haven't jumped at the opportunity to screen it.

They cover the BTCC, which they admirably do as a full day of motorsport. It could be argued that no-one really wants to watch the Porsche Carrera Cup or the Ginetta Juniors - but they do, and they put on a full 6+ hours of highly watchable telly that pulls in lots of viewers. Obviously it couldn't go on ITV1, because it'd get in the way of Coronation Street and Downton Abbey, but multi-channel formats are made for that sort of thing.

And it must pull in the viewers, because otherwise they'd just bundle together the Touring Car races on their own and present them in an hour-long highlights show at the end of the day. They also have the rights to a chunk of football matches that they could screen if they wanted instead. They don't, which says to me that the audience for televised motorsport is present.

Also, they screen the Isle of Man TT, and they really go to town on it. Nearly every single class is shown from the small-engined stuff and the sidecars right up to the superbikes. Everyone is interviewed, they have documentaries on the riders and teams in between, and again it forms entire days of telly.

I can't see any reason why they can't have a rally show. On days when it clashes with the BTCC and the TT, it can be an hour on after the BTCC coverage. On days where otherwise it'd just be another load of Professionals and Sweeney repeats, they could cover the whole thing live, from the junior categories right up to the WRC/R5/RGT cars, with interviews and mini-documentaries during lulls between stage runs.
I'd reckon that rally coverage is a hell of a lot more expensive than coverage of circuit racing if measured in £ per suitable and interesting footage.
It's not that different. The only difference is that if you're out in the sticks you need an outside broadcast unit rather than the media centres you get at racetracks, but the overall effect is much the same. Setting up cameras to capture the action on corners notorious for action and controversy is no different to bends, straights and yumps in rallying. Similar numbers of camera operators and the same techniques involved. They mount cameras inside the BTCC cars and the microphones are rigged up so the presenters can talk to the drivers - not even F1 has that and it's just a case of matching and switching radio frequencies.

The only aspect where rallying's more expensive than track-based motor sport is when helicopters get involved on events like the Safari, for those overhead shots, but you can work around that.

Anyway - I reckon what rallying needs is a combination of Europe-focused events (as that's where the most interest is), plus the inclusion of some of the great road-races outside of Europe.

So, with merged ERC and WRC calendars, the rallying calendar would include events like the Tour de Corse and Targa Florio, plus events in pretty-much every European country. People talk of the 'golden age' of road-racing being in the Sixties with Ferraris and suchlike. With rally cars and RGTs, we could get that spectacle back again.

On top of that, the teams could switch to bigger, tougher cars for some bigger 'off-season' events in each of the other continents.

I'm thinking the Baja 1000 for the Americas, the Safari Rally for Africa, the Targa Tasmania for Australasia, and maybe something in Russia or India to get a chunk of the new-money markets.

I do like the idea of some manufacturer teams entering up to three different types of car - a rugged, punchy little hot hatch for most of the gravel and snow events, RGT sports cars for tarmac rallies (I'd love to see a 4WD Peugeot RCZ with 208 R5 underpinnings being used for RGT), and sporty beach-buggy-ified small SUVs used for desert events.

E-B

356 posts

63 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Landyphil said:
One of the main reasons there's few "SUV's" is that the MSA have the following engine limit on all new Stage Log Books.


This is the current madness:

48.2.1. Production Car Engines with a maximum of six
cylinders:
a) Petrol engines with forced induction 2000cc with a
34mm restrictor or 2500cc with a 32mm restrictor,
and diesel engines with forced induction 2500cc
with a 37mm restrictor.
b) Naturally aspirated with more than 2 valves per
cylinder – 3000cc.
c) Naturally aspirated with maximum of 2 valves per
cylinder – 3500cc.
48.2.2. Metro 6R4 2500cc and 2800cc (Single Plenum)
engines complying with MSA Specification, exclusive to
6R4s.
48.2.3. Specialist Competition Engines:
a) Naturally aspirated.
b) No more than four cylinders.
c) No more than four valves per cylinder.
d) Maximum capacity of 2,500cc.


Then just to add even more water on the fire there's the fact that the rules on structural changes are very strict in rallying compared to Proto Class in the British Cross Country side of things. In fact even the SuperProduction class in Cross Country events is too much for rallying.

46.2.4. Cars must retain the original number of, and
location of, driven wheels, Front Wheel Drive (FWD),
Rear Wheel Drive (RWD) or Four Wheel Drive (4WD),
except where a 4WD car, other than a Specialist Rally
Car, is converted to Two Wheel Drive (2WD) without
structural alteration.
46.3. Category 2. Any car not complying with 46.2 that
may be authorised for use at the discretion of the MSA.
46.3.1. Such authorisation will only be granted for cars
which retain the original manufacturer’s
chassis/bodywork/ unitary construction.
46.3.2. Substitution by a space frame chassis will not
be accepted.
46.3.3. Original manufacturer's bodywork must be
utilised.
46.3.4. Any modifications homologated by the FIA may
be incorporated.
46.3.5. Replica copies of manufacturers homologated
body parts/aerodynamic devices will not be accepted.


It's such a shame,


A bit of cross pollination would be no harm:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detail...
Thanks for putting the link up Phil, i won my class in the BCCC in 2010 and hope to be out again next season.

I wonder if the eligability Scruitineer would spot that the bonnet/tailgates of my car weren't still factory when it gets logbooked. I must give him a call sometime.


SystemParanoia

9,696 posts

83 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
allow open top cars to compete at club level upwards




E-B

356 posts

63 months

[news] 
Tuesday 9th October 2012 quote quote all
SystemParanoia said:
allow open top cars to compete at club level upwards



Its on my list after doing Rally Reykjavic next season. So maybe Barbados in 2014.
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