What would YOU do to change rallying?
Discussion
Twincam16 said:
I really cannot get my head around why ITV4 haven't jumped at the opportunity to screen it.
They cover the BTCC, which they admirably do as a full day of motorsport. It could be argued that no-one really wants to watch the Porsche Carrera Cup or the Ginetta Juniors - but they do, and they put on a full 6+ hours of highly watchable telly that pulls in lots of viewers. Obviously it couldn't go on ITV1, because it'd get in the way of Coronation Street and Downton Abbey, but multi-channel formats are made for that sort of thing.
And it must pull in the viewers, because otherwise they'd just bundle together the Touring Car races on their own and present them in an hour-long highlights show at the end of the day. They also have the rights to a chunk of football matches that they could screen if they wanted instead. They don't, which says to me that the audience for televised motorsport is present. And a dozen cameras fixed around a 3mile circuit is way easier and cheaper to produce compared to over 3days and a couple of hundred stage miles, if you want decent coverage.
Also, they screen the Isle of Man TT, and they really go to town on it. Nearly every single class is shown from the small-engined stuff and the sidecars right up to the superbikes. Everyone is interviewed, they have documentaries on the riders and teams in between, and again it forms entire days of telly.
I can't see any reason why they can't have a rally show. On days when it clashes with the BTCC and the TT, it can be an hour on after the BTCC coverage. On days where otherwise it'd just be another load of Professionals and Sweeney repeats, they could cover the whole thing live, from the junior categories right up to the WRC/R5/RGT cars, with interviews and mini-documentaries during lulls between stage runs.
Repeats are very cheap obviously.They cover the BTCC, which they admirably do as a full day of motorsport. It could be argued that no-one really wants to watch the Porsche Carrera Cup or the Ginetta Juniors - but they do, and they put on a full 6+ hours of highly watchable telly that pulls in lots of viewers. Obviously it couldn't go on ITV1, because it'd get in the way of Coronation Street and Downton Abbey, but multi-channel formats are made for that sort of thing.
And it must pull in the viewers, because otherwise they'd just bundle together the Touring Car races on their own and present them in an hour-long highlights show at the end of the day. They also have the rights to a chunk of football matches that they could screen if they wanted instead. They don't, which says to me that the audience for televised motorsport is present. And a dozen cameras fixed around a 3mile circuit is way easier and cheaper to produce compared to over 3days and a couple of hundred stage miles, if you want decent coverage.
Also, they screen the Isle of Man TT, and they really go to town on it. Nearly every single class is shown from the small-engined stuff and the sidecars right up to the superbikes. Everyone is interviewed, they have documentaries on the riders and teams in between, and again it forms entire days of telly.
I can't see any reason why they can't have a rally show. On days when it clashes with the BTCC and the TT, it can be an hour on after the BTCC coverage. On days where otherwise it'd just be another load of Professionals and Sweeney repeats, they could cover the whole thing live, from the junior categories right up to the WRC/R5/RGT cars, with interviews and mini-documentaries during lulls between stage runs.
Isle of man TT gets the works done on it because the isle of man tourist board/government pay for the production and see its value to the IoM.
Production of 6hours of TOCA paid for in large part by TOCA/a title sponsor (Dunlop?) because they (toca) see the value, see the need to keep their championship on "TV" and ITV provide the platform/and an independent production company supply the services to produce the programme, not sure if that's actually ITV Sport, although they may brand it so, for putting it on their platform ITV4. Watch the closing credits you learn a lot about these things.
Now as I read somewhere RallyGB was paid for by the Welsh tourist board (read as welsh assembly) hence why it's set in exclusively Wales. The welsh see/saw (?) the value subsidising from the public purse, as it draws attention to the country and someone is convinced there was financial and other less tangible benefits.
Trouble is many of the people that matter don't see value of rallying and if there's a cheaper better way to promote Wales they'll drop the rally.
Edited by Northern Munkee on Tuesday 9th October 14:40
Northern Munkee said:
Now as I read somewhere RallyGB was paid for by the Welsh tourist board (read as welsh assembly) hence why it's set in exclusively Wales. The welsh see/saw (?) the value subsidising from the public purse, as it draws attention to the country and someone is convinced there was financial and other less tangible benefits.
Trouble is many of the people that matter don't see value of rallying and if there's a cheaper better way to promote Wales they'll drop the rally.
I heard that they (the welsh Assembly) had been tied into a contract for X years hence the continued return and due to internal welsh pressure the ceremonial start/PR launch day/s in morth wales.Trouble is many of the people that matter don't see value of rallying and if there's a cheaper better way to promote Wales they'll drop the rally.
Edited by Northern Munkee on Tuesday 9th October 14:40
Been meaning to post in here for a while.
Cant be dealing with multiple quotes on comments i’ve seen so will just comment generally.
To those who have said the Cars are boring now, i honestly have to disagree. The cars are more than capable of doing what a Quattro S1/Delta S4 could do 20 years ago, but better! Its the driving styles that have changed and cost the sport some of its sparkle and spectacle. Some of the drivers now take a more circuit racing driving style nowadays, the straighter line is always the faster line.
Similarly you rarely see a Finn high and wild over the yumps on WRC Finland as they know, the longer the car is in the air the more momentum and time they lose out on getting back on full power!
No the cars aren’t as spectacular looking as the Stratos and Delta’s were, but still look and sound pretty awesome imho.
I agree completely on ticket prices, its been way to high for too long now and needs a change!
While i do agree Loeb’s dominance has been detrimental to the sport, he isn’t to blam as much as people think. All we’ve seen over the last 9 years is the same as F1 had with the Schumacher/Ferrari partnership. Right guy, right car wins overall.
There were challengers to his dominance, but after the teams falling short of cash, drivers sponsorship drying up and drivers retiring, no one really shone through as a genuine challenger until Ogier burst on the scene. But he upset the apple cart and got binned by Citroen as he wasn’t willing to bend over and let Loeb ride him.
A few other drivers have come close to toppling Loeb, but as usual have to go over the limit to do so, and pay the price for it.
As much as i’d like to hate Loeb for being so dominant in the sport, i cant, i just feel sorry for the sport that no one has been good enough to actually hand him ass consistently.
I, like many, wish to see the return of endurance events like the Safari Rally, not sure how feasible that is when you consider they don’t run the Dakar through Africa anymore after threats against the race previously, would they target WRC too? I guess we cant really know.
Im not sure most of you that have said about a return to rwd have considered then that the national series that runs along side Rally GB will be null and void as a part of the GB round. You cant have joe blogs in his 07 spec Impreza going faster through a stage than the World Rally Champion! Losing the nationals will see a mere 30car entry list like this years round which has gathered nothing but complaints at the poor entry.
One or two have said do away with pacenotes, thats a bizarre one for me tbh as all your going to see then is a car gingerly making its way around corners and crests, and only flat out on bits they can see is straight! Its also a sure fire way of having more accidents in the sport and increasing the injury risk to speccys!
So there’s the cost involved for just the plane. Then there’s the cost of the timing gear for 3 stages and the set up crew and their vans to get the equipment to the stages, the cost of official vehicles to drive the stages in safety capacity, of which there are at least 5 4x4’s that enter the stage before even the 0 car gets to the line!. The need for the plane is due to the fact most of the stages are in dead zones for mobile signal and pretty much any technology!
The costs in rallying to circuit based racing is massively different, and i think this is what scares away most broadcasters. And the sheer logistics of getting footage of a single stage that’s worth showing.
I’d be interested in seeing what the cost was to ESPN for the season they ran the coverage.
Cant be dealing with multiple quotes on comments i’ve seen so will just comment generally.
To those who have said the Cars are boring now, i honestly have to disagree. The cars are more than capable of doing what a Quattro S1/Delta S4 could do 20 years ago, but better! Its the driving styles that have changed and cost the sport some of its sparkle and spectacle. Some of the drivers now take a more circuit racing driving style nowadays, the straighter line is always the faster line.
Similarly you rarely see a Finn high and wild over the yumps on WRC Finland as they know, the longer the car is in the air the more momentum and time they lose out on getting back on full power!
No the cars aren’t as spectacular looking as the Stratos and Delta’s were, but still look and sound pretty awesome imho.
I agree completely on ticket prices, its been way to high for too long now and needs a change!
While i do agree Loeb’s dominance has been detrimental to the sport, he isn’t to blam as much as people think. All we’ve seen over the last 9 years is the same as F1 had with the Schumacher/Ferrari partnership. Right guy, right car wins overall.
There were challengers to his dominance, but after the teams falling short of cash, drivers sponsorship drying up and drivers retiring, no one really shone through as a genuine challenger until Ogier burst on the scene. But he upset the apple cart and got binned by Citroen as he wasn’t willing to bend over and let Loeb ride him.
A few other drivers have come close to toppling Loeb, but as usual have to go over the limit to do so, and pay the price for it.
As much as i’d like to hate Loeb for being so dominant in the sport, i cant, i just feel sorry for the sport that no one has been good enough to actually hand him ass consistently.
I, like many, wish to see the return of endurance events like the Safari Rally, not sure how feasible that is when you consider they don’t run the Dakar through Africa anymore after threats against the race previously, would they target WRC too? I guess we cant really know.
Im not sure most of you that have said about a return to rwd have considered then that the national series that runs along side Rally GB will be null and void as a part of the GB round. You cant have joe blogs in his 07 spec Impreza going faster through a stage than the World Rally Champion! Losing the nationals will see a mere 30car entry list like this years round which has gathered nothing but complaints at the poor entry.
One or two have said do away with pacenotes, thats a bizarre one for me tbh as all your going to see then is a car gingerly making its way around corners and crests, and only flat out on bits they can see is straight! Its also a sure fire way of having more accidents in the sport and increasing the injury risk to speccys!
Twincam16 said:
The only aspect where rallying's more expensive than track-based motor sport is when helicopters get involved on events like the Safari, for those overhead shots, but you can work around that.
Sorry Twincam it’s not as simple as that! For the tracking system to work there has to be a plane flying round from the second the first car leaves the line, to the second the last car crosses the line of the final loop of morning stages. This plane is also used for the timing equipment so rally HQ can get up to the second times on each car.So there’s the cost involved for just the plane. Then there’s the cost of the timing gear for 3 stages and the set up crew and their vans to get the equipment to the stages, the cost of official vehicles to drive the stages in safety capacity, of which there are at least 5 4x4’s that enter the stage before even the 0 car gets to the line!. The need for the plane is due to the fact most of the stages are in dead zones for mobile signal and pretty much any technology!
The costs in rallying to circuit based racing is massively different, and i think this is what scares away most broadcasters. And the sheer logistics of getting footage of a single stage that’s worth showing.
I’d be interested in seeing what the cost was to ESPN for the season they ran the coverage.
TankRS said:
One or two have said do away with pacenotes, thats a bizarre one for me tbh as all your going to see then is a car gingerly making its way around corners and crests, and only flat out on bits they can see is straight! Its also a sure fire way of having more accidents in the sport and increasing the injury risk to speccys!
As someone who competed at international level in an era where pace notes were banned, at least on such as RAC rally, then I have to say it is the above statements are the ones that are quite bizarre.Firstly, injury risk to spectators is down to marshalling and spectator control.
For sure you adopt a different driving style on blind stages, and on the events in my day where pace notes were allowed, then a much more racing driver style was adopted. This resulted in higher pace into and round bends, but much more spectacular accidents. Where pace notes were banned, firstly you didn't have the expense of the recce, secondly you have to commit less into the bend, ie have something up your sleeve.
Of course then, completely different tyre technology was used, with much different grip/slide characteristics, and you adopted this into your driving style. The introduction of the deep hand cut sticky tyres which relied on sheer grip rather than M&S s
t shovellers also made a change in driving style.However as for the allegation that drivers would tiptoe along and only get going when a clear straight appeared just doesn't square with my experience as a co-driver, driver and spectator. Something that will live with me for the rest of my life was seeing Timo Makinen in his Colibri Escort on a cold Welsh night, totally harry flatters down a forest hill so icy I could just about stand up, when his lights flared up onto a 30 right over cattle grid. Timo braked just to the point of locking, just such perfect control, slight out of balance edge to the left, off the brakes, flick right over the grid, and foot back in the bucket, waaah, waaaaaaahh, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh, away into the night.
No pace notes. Magic!
TankRS said:
B
The costs in rallying to circuit based racing is massively different, and i think this is what scares away most broadcasters. And the sheer logistics of getting footage of a single stage that’s worth showing.
I’d be interested in seeing what the cost was to ESPN for the season they ran the coverage.
I couldn't argue that costs to televise must be more than circuit racing, but it can't be too difficult to achieve it on a budget. The coverage of the BHRC as done by David Winstanley is excellent, far better than any I have seen on WRC (Mind you that's partly because I've given up on it...!).The costs in rallying to circuit based racing is massively different, and i think this is what scares away most broadcasters. And the sheer logistics of getting footage of a single stage that’s worth showing.
I’d be interested in seeing what the cost was to ESPN for the season they ran the coverage.
Also the Irish Tarmac stuff is brilliant too.
Now to be fair I'm not sure if this is down to the way the rallies are covered on TV or the simple fact that the cars are more entertaining. But certainly the way WRC is portrayed on TV is frequently boring.
3 or 4 yerars ago, on rally gb there were sometimes up to 6 camera crews on stages i marshalled, this year there was one crew in stage and one guy filming the cars on the start line. This team was filming for Ralio and said they could only film 2 stages a day.
This is why the stuff we see on the tv is so poor and i have noticed more than once on the Motors TV shows especially, they have ‘recycled’ footage for the next days show, or even sometimes as a different stage on the same day. It could be down to sloppy edditing though.
This i think is one reason the highlights packages look so poor, as there simply isnt enough media instage covering it.
Its rare this season to see any ‘fancam’ action of offs and incidents on a stage, and tbh if i had anything worth showing i wouldnt know where to take it!
This is why the stuff we see on the tv is so poor and i have noticed more than once on the Motors TV shows especially, they have ‘recycled’ footage for the next days show, or even sometimes as a different stage on the same day. It could be down to sloppy edditing though.
This i think is one reason the highlights packages look so poor, as there simply isnt enough media instage covering it.
Its rare this season to see any ‘fancam’ action of offs and incidents on a stage, and tbh if i had anything worth showing i wouldnt know where to take it!
My understanding, a significant part of the WRC format, ie small number of stages per day, run twice more or less in daylight, was to keep TV costs down. Reducing the numbers of camera crews required, and reducing the requirement on them to charge all over the place. Obviously the intention was to improve coverage, thus get a wider audience and therefore the knock on economic benefits.
Clearly the coverage improved in the earlier years, some of the coverage was quite good, at least compared to what we previously had to put up with, despite all our old fogey rose tinted specs. Currently it's a total failure, not only for the general audience, but also for what can be called rally fans.
Clearly the coverage improved in the earlier years, some of the coverage was quite good, at least compared to what we previously had to put up with, despite all our old fogey rose tinted specs. Currently it's a total failure, not only for the general audience, but also for what can be called rally fans.
FiF said:
However as for the allegation that drivers would tiptoe along and only get going when a clear straight appeared just doesn't square with my experience as a co-driver, driver and spectator. Something that will live with me for the rest of my life was seeing Timo Makinen in his Colibri Escort on a cold Welsh night, totally harry flatters down a forest hill so icy I could just about stand up, when his lights flared up onto a 30 right over cattle grid. Timo braked just to the point of locking, just such perfect control, slight out of balance edge to the left, off the brakes, flick right over the grid, and foot back in the bucket, waaah, waaaaaaahh, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh, away into the night.
No pace notes. Magic!
Spot on. A large chunk of the old sideways driving style was out of necessity, the driver would basically destabilise thee car so he could flick it in either direction if he wasn't really sure which way the corner went! No pace notes. Magic!
I think re introducing a ban on pace notes for some stages would add a bit more interest to the sport, not sure what the current generation of drivers would make of it though?
According to a recent update on the WRC Wiki:
FIA President Jean Todt has further proposed that rallies adopt an "endurance" format, favouring longer routes and more-demanding stages.[22] The format was first trialled at the 2012 Rally Argentina, with Todt encouraging event organisers to embrace the format in 2013.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96834
Looks promising.
FIA President Jean Todt has further proposed that rallies adopt an "endurance" format, favouring longer routes and more-demanding stages.[22] The format was first trialled at the 2012 Rally Argentina, with Todt encouraging event organisers to embrace the format in 2013.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/96834
Looks promising.
TankRS said:
my mistake, i thought pacenotes had been in use for a lot longer than it seems!
perhaps i'm just mistaking the co-driver doing the maps as pacenotes?
Maps have been used from the start - a good nav can give a description of what's coming, obviously not as accurate as notes. Organisers used to give 'not as map' with a grid in particular areas of concern where if you went 'to the map' you'd have problems.perhaps i'm just mistaking the co-driver doing the maps as pacenotes?
Even with a pace note ban a good nav with a map will help the drivers confidence.
Homogolation.
I heard on the news the other day citroen was now the most sucessfull manufacturer of all time in rally.
This just seems preposterous, that of all the greats, the innovators, the beauties and the beasts, that a french manufacturer of forgettable lukewarm at best runnabout cars has taken such a title using -what is it exactly- a spaceframe buggy with a hatchback-a-like pretend bodyshell? All seems a bit of a sham.
The manufacturer side of rally to me was about proving technical superiority of ones product, and something that everyone can have a tangible connection with, that small boys can brag about their dad's base model repmobil. If you want untouchable you go watch F1.
The saddest thing in all this is that citroen can't evan be bothered to capitalise on wrc success with road cars. They're just not interested, motorsport isn't what they're about, it's a trophy, like an ignorant rich man might collect fine art he cares nothing for, just to show off.
I heard on the news the other day citroen was now the most sucessfull manufacturer of all time in rally.
This just seems preposterous, that of all the greats, the innovators, the beauties and the beasts, that a french manufacturer of forgettable lukewarm at best runnabout cars has taken such a title using -what is it exactly- a spaceframe buggy with a hatchback-a-like pretend bodyshell? All seems a bit of a sham.
The manufacturer side of rally to me was about proving technical superiority of ones product, and something that everyone can have a tangible connection with, that small boys can brag about their dad's base model repmobil. If you want untouchable you go watch F1.
The saddest thing in all this is that citroen can't evan be bothered to capitalise on wrc success with road cars. They're just not interested, motorsport isn't what they're about, it's a trophy, like an ignorant rich man might collect fine art he cares nothing for, just to show off.
hairyben said:
Homogolation.
I heard on the news the other day citroen was now the most sucessfull manufacturer of all time in rally.
This just seems preposterous, that of all the greats, the innovators, the beauties and the beasts, that a french manufacturer of forgettable lukewarm at best runnabout cars has taken such a title using -what is it exactly- a spaceframe buggy with a hatchback-a-like pretend bodyshell? All seems a bit of a sham.
The manufacturer side of rally to me was about proving technical superiority of ones product, and something that everyone can have a tangible connection with, that small boys can brag about their dad's base model repmobil. If you want untouchable you go watch F1.
The saddest thing in all this is that citroen can't evan be bothered to capitalise on wrc success with road cars. They're just not interested, motorsport isn't what they're about, it's a trophy, like an ignorant rich man might collect fine art he cares nothing for, just to show off.
To be fair, Citroen finally gave us a limited-edition roadgoing DS3R, but it was a stupidly long time coming.I heard on the news the other day citroen was now the most sucessfull manufacturer of all time in rally.
This just seems preposterous, that of all the greats, the innovators, the beauties and the beasts, that a french manufacturer of forgettable lukewarm at best runnabout cars has taken such a title using -what is it exactly- a spaceframe buggy with a hatchback-a-like pretend bodyshell? All seems a bit of a sham.
The manufacturer side of rally to me was about proving technical superiority of ones product, and something that everyone can have a tangible connection with, that small boys can brag about their dad's base model repmobil. If you want untouchable you go watch F1.
The saddest thing in all this is that citroen can't evan be bothered to capitalise on wrc success with road cars. They're just not interested, motorsport isn't what they're about, it's a trophy, like an ignorant rich man might collect fine art he cares nothing for, just to show off.
However, with the new Group R rules, homologation will be required, forcing the rally cars closer in spec to roadgoing cars.
What would I do to change rallying?
Make it rallying again, rather than F1 on gravel.
Rallying was, and always should be, about road cars. Modified, yes, but road cars. The current crop of WRC cars are prototypes, with all the running costs and boredom and irrelevance that goes with it.
I mean, talk about a barrier to entry! To compete in rallying, manufacturers used to be able to modify their road cars, now they have to build a ground-up prototype. It's stupid.
I've said it before, but here it is again.
Rear wheel drive road cars with limited chassis and engine mods.
Some of the cars that could compete:
Audi TT (I'd allow 4WD cars to be converted to RWD)
New Alfa 4C
Toyota GT86
Subaru BRZ
Lotus Elise/Exige
BMW 1 Series
The problem, as it is with all motorsport in difficulty, in terms of how exciting it is to watch is more grip than power. The cars don't more around like they used to. That makes them look slow, even though they're going faster than ever.
Make it rallying again, rather than F1 on gravel.
Rallying was, and always should be, about road cars. Modified, yes, but road cars. The current crop of WRC cars are prototypes, with all the running costs and boredom and irrelevance that goes with it.
I mean, talk about a barrier to entry! To compete in rallying, manufacturers used to be able to modify their road cars, now they have to build a ground-up prototype. It's stupid.
I've said it before, but here it is again.
Rear wheel drive road cars with limited chassis and engine mods.
Some of the cars that could compete:
Audi TT (I'd allow 4WD cars to be converted to RWD)
New Alfa 4C
Toyota GT86
Subaru BRZ
Lotus Elise/Exige
BMW 1 Series
The problem, as it is with all motorsport in difficulty, in terms of how exciting it is to watch is more grip than power. The cars don't more around like they used to. That makes them look slow, even though they're going faster than ever.
E-B said:
Ford have announced that they're not bothering with WRC anymore. Another manufacturer down, just as others were coming back and Rallying starting to take off in the USA. Shame really that a manufacturer synonimous with rallying going.
Not quite:http://www.washingtonpost.com/cars/ford-ending-wrc...
Ford are ending the works sponsorship of the Ford WRC cars, leaving it in the hands of MSport, which have run the team since 2007 anyway. Ford has reiterated its commitment to supply rallying Fiestas, which under the new Group R regulations will have to be runs of road cars anyway, so it really just reflects the new changes.
Same goes for Mini: http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1079797_mini-en...
The factory won't be sponsoring the team, but Prodrive will still run it. Again, it reflects the homologation changes.
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