Yet another street circuit
Discussion
PW said:
Traditional venues - such as Spa, which seems permanently borderline, Magny Cours/Any other French is almost certainly not going to happen, the Nurburgring went bust, Silverstone's finances seem a regular feature of headlines in recent history...
That's why there aren't more races at "traditional venues" and there are more races at "places that pay".
Also, how about facilitating fans who aren't in Europe? Yes, the fly aways seem to be attracting small crowds, but there seems to be an automatic overriding assumption that F1 should be in Europe "just because", ignoring the fact that it is a world championship with a global audience - it isn't your sport to keep locked away in Europe because of "tradition" and because it suits your Sunday afternoon.
Its entirely fair - wherever, whoever you are - if you can give Bernie the cash, you can host a race.
If no one turns up and after a couple of years with no income you find you can't keep it up (Turkey, Korea) then Bernie moves on to his next victim.
And as you well know, the reason why traditional European circuits are struggling is because of the exhorbitant amounts of money they have to pay BE for the "priviledge" of hosting F1 events. Therefore, races are moving to countries where governments are stumping up the cash - and countries where perhaps the governments should have different priorities than garnering the "prestige" of hosting F1.That's why there aren't more races at "traditional venues" and there are more races at "places that pay".
Also, how about facilitating fans who aren't in Europe? Yes, the fly aways seem to be attracting small crowds, but there seems to be an automatic overriding assumption that F1 should be in Europe "just because", ignoring the fact that it is a world championship with a global audience - it isn't your sport to keep locked away in Europe because of "tradition" and because it suits your Sunday afternoon.
Its entirely fair - wherever, whoever you are - if you can give Bernie the cash, you can host a race.
If no one turns up and after a couple of years with no income you find you can't keep it up (Turkey, Korea) then Bernie moves on to his next victim.
Indeed, in many of these countries, the fans just aren't there.
F1 has become a tool for generating cash for its particiants. It is not particularly concerned about retaining its fan base. In the end, this direction of travel could prove fatal to the whole enterprise.
Eric Mc said:
PW said:
Traditional venues - such as Spa, which seems permanently borderline, Magny Cours/Any other French is almost certainly not going to happen, the Nurburgring went bust, Silverstone's finances seem a regular feature of headlines in recent history...
That's why there aren't more races at "traditional venues" and there are more races at "places that pay".
Also, how about facilitating fans who aren't in Europe? Yes, the fly aways seem to be attracting small crowds, but there seems to be an automatic overriding assumption that F1 should be in Europe "just because", ignoring the fact that it is a world championship with a global audience - it isn't your sport to keep locked away in Europe because of "tradition" and because it suits your Sunday afternoon.
Its entirely fair - wherever, whoever you are - if you can give Bernie the cash, you can host a race.
If no one turns up and after a couple of years with no income you find you can't keep it up (Turkey, Korea) then Bernie moves on to his next victim.
And as you well know, the reason why traditional European circuits are struggling is because of the exhorbitant amounts of money they have to pay BE for the "priviledge" of hosting F1 events. Therefore, races are moving to countries where governments are stumping up the cash - and countries where perhaps the governments should have different priorities than garnering the "prestige" of hosting F1.That's why there aren't more races at "traditional venues" and there are more races at "places that pay".
Also, how about facilitating fans who aren't in Europe? Yes, the fly aways seem to be attracting small crowds, but there seems to be an automatic overriding assumption that F1 should be in Europe "just because", ignoring the fact that it is a world championship with a global audience - it isn't your sport to keep locked away in Europe because of "tradition" and because it suits your Sunday afternoon.
Its entirely fair - wherever, whoever you are - if you can give Bernie the cash, you can host a race.
If no one turns up and after a couple of years with no income you find you can't keep it up (Turkey, Korea) then Bernie moves on to his next victim.
Indeed, in many of these countries, the fans just aren't there.
F1 has become a tool for generating cash for its particiants. It is not particularly concerned about retaining its fan base. In the end, this direction of travel could prove fatal to the whole enterprise.
The reason I ask is whether actually us F1 nerds really matter in the grand scheme of things? Do spectators really need to turn up to watch a race when there are a billion folk having it fed into their living rooms in Dolby 5.1 HD goodness?
For me, F1 is at its best in the raw and by the trackside, but there's no denying that the general TV viewing experience is now pretty s
t hot. At Spa a few weeks ago, sat high above Pouhon, we weren't able to follow the race nearly so well as we could with Martin Brundle's insight while sat in our living rooms 500 miles away. The live spectacle of F1 might slowly die away in favour of watching it televised from every different angle under the sun with expert analysis at every turn. Which would be a shame really, as my experience a few weeks ago at Monza, stood watching FP1 from the entrance of Ascari remains one of the absolute highlights of my lifetime at the trackside. Still, if it came down to it, I'd sooner watch Korea on the telly than have to fly 3,000 miles around the world to watch it live. Spa, Monza, Suzuka, Interlagos, Silverstone, Montreal on the other hand...
chevronb37 said:
Eric, I'm interested in whether you know of anywhere one could find comparative numbers of global TV viewers plotted against annual race attendances? Say for the last 20 years?
The reason I ask is whether actually us F1 nerds really matter in the grand scheme of things? Do spectators really need to turn up to watch a race when there are a billion folk having it fed into their living rooms in Dolby 5.1 HD goodness?
For me, F1 is at its best in the raw and by the trackside, but there's no denying that the general TV viewing experience is now pretty st hot. At Spa a few weeks ago, sat high above Pouhon, we weren't able to follow the race nearly so well as we could with Martin Brundle's insight while sat in our living rooms 500 miles away.
The live spectacle of F1 might slowly die away in favour of watching it televised from every different angle under the sun with expert analysis at every turn. Which would be a shame really, as my experience a few weeks ago at Monza, stood watching FP1 from the entrance of Ascari remains one of the absolute highlights of my lifetime at the trackside. Still, if it came down to it, I'd sooner watch Korea on the telly than have to fly 3,000 miles around the world to watch it live. Spa, Monza, Suzuka, Interlagos, Silverstone, Montreal on the other hand...
That's a good point because i'm one of those F1 nerds that likes to know about the stratergies and such like throughout the race, which you can't pick up sitting in a grandstand and waiting to see if the red car is still infront of the silver one. The reason I ask is whether actually us F1 nerds really matter in the grand scheme of things? Do spectators really need to turn up to watch a race when there are a billion folk having it fed into their living rooms in Dolby 5.1 HD goodness?
For me, F1 is at its best in the raw and by the trackside, but there's no denying that the general TV viewing experience is now pretty s
t hot. At Spa a few weeks ago, sat high above Pouhon, we weren't able to follow the race nearly so well as we could with Martin Brundle's insight while sat in our living rooms 500 miles away. The live spectacle of F1 might slowly die away in favour of watching it televised from every different angle under the sun with expert analysis at every turn. Which would be a shame really, as my experience a few weeks ago at Monza, stood watching FP1 from the entrance of Ascari remains one of the absolute highlights of my lifetime at the trackside. Still, if it came down to it, I'd sooner watch Korea on the telly than have to fly 3,000 miles around the world to watch it live. Spa, Monza, Suzuka, Interlagos, Silverstone, Montreal on the other hand...
So although i'd love to go to a grand prix, and certainly will do at some point, i'd always try to get somewhere where there's a tv as well so i can actually watch the good stuff about the race,tyres,radio b
hing etc as well as get a bit of the atmosphere. R300will said:
chevronb37 said:
Eric, I'm interested in whether you know of anywhere one could find comparative numbers of global TV viewers plotted against annual race attendances? Say for the last 20 years?
The reason I ask is whether actually us F1 nerds really matter in the grand scheme of things? Do spectators really need to turn up to watch a race when there are a billion folk having it fed into their living rooms in Dolby 5.1 HD goodness?
For me, F1 is at its best in the raw and by the trackside, but there's no denying that the general TV viewing experience is now pretty st hot. At Spa a few weeks ago, sat high above Pouhon, we weren't able to follow the race nearly so well as we could with Martin Brundle's insight while sat in our living rooms 500 miles away.
The live spectacle of F1 might slowly die away in favour of watching it televised from every different angle under the sun with expert analysis at every turn. Which would be a shame really, as my experience a few weeks ago at Monza, stood watching FP1 from the entrance of Ascari remains one of the absolute highlights of my lifetime at the trackside. Still, if it came down to it, I'd sooner watch Korea on the telly than have to fly 3,000 miles around the world to watch it live. Spa, Monza, Suzuka, Interlagos, Silverstone, Montreal on the other hand...
That's a good point because i'm one of those F1 nerds that likes to know about the stratergies and such like throughout the race, which you can't pick up sitting in a grandstand and waiting to see if the red car is still infront of the silver one. The reason I ask is whether actually us F1 nerds really matter in the grand scheme of things? Do spectators really need to turn up to watch a race when there are a billion folk having it fed into their living rooms in Dolby 5.1 HD goodness?
For me, F1 is at its best in the raw and by the trackside, but there's no denying that the general TV viewing experience is now pretty s
t hot. At Spa a few weeks ago, sat high above Pouhon, we weren't able to follow the race nearly so well as we could with Martin Brundle's insight while sat in our living rooms 500 miles away. The live spectacle of F1 might slowly die away in favour of watching it televised from every different angle under the sun with expert analysis at every turn. Which would be a shame really, as my experience a few weeks ago at Monza, stood watching FP1 from the entrance of Ascari remains one of the absolute highlights of my lifetime at the trackside. Still, if it came down to it, I'd sooner watch Korea on the telly than have to fly 3,000 miles around the world to watch it live. Spa, Monza, Suzuka, Interlagos, Silverstone, Montreal on the other hand...
So although i'd love to go to a grand prix, and certainly will do at some point, i'd always try to get somewhere where there's a tv as well so i can actually watch the good stuff about the race,tyres,radio b
hing etc as well as get a bit of the atmosphere. 
Oh and sorry for moving off-topic. Personally I think the proliferation of street circuits is a bit unnecessary, but in terms of providing an unreal spectacle, they're pretty awesome. I've only been to Monaco for the Historique, but it's amazing sitting in front of the harbour with the noise everywhere. The cars shake the grandstands in front of you, behind you and going away from you up the hill towards Casino Square. It's an absolutely amazing sensation. And watching a hot lap from someone quick through Casino Square is just incredible - the commitment required and the way you see the cars and drivers working is sensational. I do think the selection needs to be pretty careful as it's clear to everyone Valencia didn't work, but I think Singapore does. I imagine it will, in time, become a classic race, though it will never rival the majesty of Spa in my eyes.
refoman2 said:
Berw said:
I took part in a weekend's racing with the Thai super car championship the other week, you get extra points in that drivers championship if you had pit and umbrella girls, could only happen in Thailand, be interesting to see the girls the F1 boys would have with the same rules.
On a serious note I agree street circuits are awfull I've never been to Singapaore dispite it being only a few hours away, no real interest.
they should have it in Pattaya,and if drivers retire they could just nip off to Soi 6 until the race finishes lolOn a serious note I agree street circuits are awfull I've never been to Singapaore dispite it being only a few hours away, no real interest.
chevronb37 said:
Eric, I'm interested in whether you know of anywhere one could find comparative numbers of global TV viewers plotted against annual race attendances? Say for the last 20 years?
The reason I ask is whether actually us F1 nerds really matter in the grand scheme of things? Do spectators really need to turn up to watch a race when there are a billion folk having it fed into their living rooms in Dolby 5.1 HD goodness?
For me, F1 is at its best in the raw and by the trackside, but there's no denying that the general TV viewing experience is now pretty st hot. At Spa a few weeks ago, sat high above Pouhon, we weren't able to follow the race nearly so well as we could with Martin Brundle's insight while sat in our living rooms 500 miles away.
The live spectacle of F1 might slowly die away in favour of watching it televised from every different angle under the sun with expert analysis at every turn. Which would be a shame really, as my experience a few weeks ago at Monza, stood watching FP1 from the entrance of Ascari remains one of the absolute highlights of my lifetime at the trackside. Still, if it came down to it, I'd sooner watch Korea on the telly than have to fly 3,000 miles around the world to watch it live. Spa, Monza, Suzuka, Interlagos, Silverstone, Montreal on the other hand...
If no one attends the races then how do the circuit owners make any money to recoup the costs of paying Bernie?The reason I ask is whether actually us F1 nerds really matter in the grand scheme of things? Do spectators really need to turn up to watch a race when there are a billion folk having it fed into their living rooms in Dolby 5.1 HD goodness?
For me, F1 is at its best in the raw and by the trackside, but there's no denying that the general TV viewing experience is now pretty s
t hot. At Spa a few weeks ago, sat high above Pouhon, we weren't able to follow the race nearly so well as we could with Martin Brundle's insight while sat in our living rooms 500 miles away. The live spectacle of F1 might slowly die away in favour of watching it televised from every different angle under the sun with expert analysis at every turn. Which would be a shame really, as my experience a few weeks ago at Monza, stood watching FP1 from the entrance of Ascari remains one of the absolute highlights of my lifetime at the trackside. Still, if it came down to it, I'd sooner watch Korea on the telly than have to fly 3,000 miles around the world to watch it live. Spa, Monza, Suzuka, Interlagos, Silverstone, Montreal on the other hand...
Oakey said:
chevronb37 said:
Eric, I'm interested in whether you know of anywhere one could find comparative numbers of global TV viewers plotted against annual race attendances? Say for the last 20 years?
The reason I ask is whether actually us F1 nerds really matter in the grand scheme of things? Do spectators really need to turn up to watch a race when there are a billion folk having it fed into their living rooms in Dolby 5.1 HD goodness?
For me, F1 is at its best in the raw and by the trackside, but there's no denying that the general TV viewing experience is now pretty st hot. At Spa a few weeks ago, sat high above Pouhon, we weren't able to follow the race nearly so well as we could with Martin Brundle's insight while sat in our living rooms 500 miles away.
The live spectacle of F1 might slowly die away in favour of watching it televised from every different angle under the sun with expert analysis at every turn. Which would be a shame really, as my experience a few weeks ago at Monza, stood watching FP1 from the entrance of Ascari remains one of the absolute highlights of my lifetime at the trackside. Still, if it came down to it, I'd sooner watch Korea on the telly than have to fly 3,000 miles around the world to watch it live. Spa, Monza, Suzuka, Interlagos, Silverstone, Montreal on the other hand...
If no one attends the races then how do the circuit owners make any money to recoup the costs of paying Bernie?The reason I ask is whether actually us F1 nerds really matter in the grand scheme of things? Do spectators really need to turn up to watch a race when there are a billion folk having it fed into their living rooms in Dolby 5.1 HD goodness?
For me, F1 is at its best in the raw and by the trackside, but there's no denying that the general TV viewing experience is now pretty s
t hot. At Spa a few weeks ago, sat high above Pouhon, we weren't able to follow the race nearly so well as we could with Martin Brundle's insight while sat in our living rooms 500 miles away. The live spectacle of F1 might slowly die away in favour of watching it televised from every different angle under the sun with expert analysis at every turn. Which would be a shame really, as my experience a few weeks ago at Monza, stood watching FP1 from the entrance of Ascari remains one of the absolute highlights of my lifetime at the trackside. Still, if it came down to it, I'd sooner watch Korea on the telly than have to fly 3,000 miles around the world to watch it live. Spa, Monza, Suzuka, Interlagos, Silverstone, Montreal on the other hand...
Monaco is a different animal to these other 'street' circuits. You couldn't introduce a track like that now. Only the money, history and minor allowances for safety have kept it in.
Shame they don't couldn't design in better chances for overtaking, especially now it looks like Kers is here to stay and DRS.
Valencia as a venue looks like it is settling in with some character, but I agree you need classic races and it is the racing that makes the show, not the fact it is at night and some fancy fireworks display.
Shame they don't couldn't design in better chances for overtaking, especially now it looks like Kers is here to stay and DRS.
Valencia as a venue looks like it is settling in with some character, but I agree you need classic races and it is the racing that makes the show, not the fact it is at night and some fancy fireworks display.
chevronb37 said:
I don't know - ask the promoters of China, Bahrain, Turkey, Malaysia, Korea, etc!
They don't care - because they are funded by local or state government - or a combination of both. They have no imperative to make a profit - as long as the governmment in question is willing to use taxpayers' funds to bankroll the event.As we have seen, this doesn't always ensure that a particular new venue will have a long association with F1.
Often - yes.
They don't do it from an "enthusaist" or "fan" perspective. They don't even do it for the sake of their own people.
They do it for national prestige, justification of the regime and perhaps the hope that it will attract tourists (F1 or otherwise) to their countries. It's a form of stating to the world that their country "has arrived" and deserves recognition.
They don't do it from an "enthusaist" or "fan" perspective. They don't even do it for the sake of their own people.
They do it for national prestige, justification of the regime and perhaps the hope that it will attract tourists (F1 or otherwise) to their countries. It's a form of stating to the world that their country "has arrived" and deserves recognition.
iva cosworth said:
According to Motorsport news this week Valencia is out of next year so that's one less
dull street circuit.
Agree with OP,new street and [whatsisname] designed circuits are dreadful.
I guess you didn't watch Valencia this year then.dull street circuit.
Agree with OP,new street and [whatsisname] designed circuits are dreadful.
Possibly the best race of the season.
PW said:
You've never met them - you don't know what they do or don't do, or what their motives are.
I bet you couldn't even name one of "They".
What you are saying is pure fiction.
I've never met 90% of the people involved in motor sport. But I have read lots on the subject over the years so my view is not completely made up out of nothing.I bet you couldn't even name one of "They".
What you are saying is pure fiction.
And if you don't believe that there is no perceived national prestige in hosting Grands Prix than you haven't read much on the history of the sport.
Gaz. said:
chevronb37 said:
I don't know - ask the promoters of China, Bahrain, Turkey, Malaysia, Korea, etc!
China - sold out for most of the races, highest ever Sunday attendance at an F1 race (310,000). 2011 & 2012 races had Sunday attendances of 120,000, called Eccelstone's bluff in 2011 & he reduced their fee.Bahrain, except 2012 this place sells out every year, runs at a loss but the Crown Prince doesn't care.
Turkey - a commercial flop, the ticket price was out of touch with the national economy so struggled for even 50% capacity.
Malaysia - hosted in Autumn it was a three day sell-out, the move to spring & afordability of domestic A/C has meant a drop in attendance. A night race is proposed to reverse this decline.
Korea - built in the middle of nowhere and despite good attendance the original promoter signed an unfordable deal with Bernie, the current promoter wants/needs to renegotiate this deal and Bernie is likely to reduce their fee.
For whoever asked- one the whole race attendance is up, most races are sell outs and a few tracks need to build more stands to increase capacity. TV audiences are up year on year for the last five years.
And now Greece wants to get in on the act. Can they (or more accurately, the EU) afford an F1 GP?
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/102997
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/102997
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