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CiderwithCerbie

1,420 posts

152 months

[news] 
Sunday 7th October 2012 quote quote all
davepoth said:
I think you're wrong. biggrin

Seriously though, he's third in the championship in a car that hasn't yet looked like a real race winner (it's there or thereabouts certainly, but it's never looked like a dead cert); his team mate is 108 points behind him, although admittedly he's not raced the full season.

I'd say he is outperforming the car, possibly as much as Alonso, but his car is nowhere near as good. He's plugging away quietly and staying out of trouble. All it's going to take is one race where he ends up at the front with Alonso and Vettel a bit further back and he'll be right in the championship fight. I've got a feeling he'll run well in Austin.
I hope you're right, but why is he consistently behind Grosjean on Fri/Sat??
I am not sure it's all down to Lotus not configuring the steering to suit his pref for oversteer.

SeeFive

4,071 posts

118 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
CiderwithCerbie said:
SeeFive said:
Tend to agree with you. Kimi hasn't exceeded my expectations, but then again, they were not that high anyway given his final year at Ferrari compared to previous years' levels of commitment. IMO, once you start to behave in a way that obviously asks questions of your commitment, and lose the hunger in any competitive sport, it rarely returns at full strength for extended periods.

Probably why your favourite 7 times WDC has not done so well this time around (or maybe it was the tyres / bargeboards / FIA etc) wink

Whoops, oh no, what have I said.

Switches off computer and heads upstairs with tail between legs.
... some other stuff...

As for Kimi, I am a little bit concerned that, 'Yes/No', 'I was having a st', 'I don't care' has morphed into 'I don't give a st'.
Listen, don't mention the war! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it all right. wink

Edited by SeeFive on Monday 8th October 01:38

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

140 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
CiderwithCerbie said:
I hope you're right, but why is he consistently behind Grosjean on Fri/Sat??
I am not sure it's all down to Lotus not configuring the steering to suit his pref for oversteer.
He may well be behind Grosjean, but it is Kimi bringing the points home, and has been Mr Consistent.

TheHeretic

73,668 posts

140 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Not if your names kimi
Are you referring to the incident yesterday? If so, Kimi never hit the back of Fred's car. Fred moved left, into Kimi, (a bit like Grosjean on Hamilton at Spa).

LaurasOtherHalf

8,237 posts

81 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
TheHeretic said:
Are you referring to the incident yesterday? If so, Kimi never hit the back of Fred's car. Fred moved left, into Kimi, (a bit like Grosjean on Hamilton at Spa).
Yeah I see your point, but I thought it looked different.

Kimi put his car on the grass which in turn meant he couldn't brake as well as he should.

He then hit alonso's rear tyre puncturing it which obviously put him out.

If kimi had gotten out of the throttle a tiny bit earlier he could have avoided the accident, a bit like the two other people who were penalised.

I'm not an alonso/Ferrari fanboy btw, although I do admit to not having much time for kimi, but that's just the way I saw it.

If others were to be investigated for their misdemeanors in the first corner/s tear up I thought his at least deserved looking at too.
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Scuffers

13,901 posts

159 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
I am sure Kim did not put himself on the grass by choice, salons pushed him there, and thus should have appreciated what was likely to happen next.

Derek Smith

20,269 posts

133 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
CiderwithCerbie said:
I actually think Stewart (besides his own self-promotion) got it right, Schumacher is a great driver, but not the greatest (and not in my top 10) despite the Stats that will never be repeated. [Anyone else remember people saying in 2007/8 that LH would break all Schumacher's records??]

For me, I hate the way he behaved to others up to Hungary 2010, he (and others) ruined the sport 2001-4 and the leaks about what was going on 1994/5 at Benetton don't help his cause. He will always divide opinion and that will always detract from his legacy. 2009-12 was a failure, not entirely of his own making, but he certainly initially over-estimated where he would be in the pecking order.
One aspect of F1 has been true since I started watching in '66: it is a team sport. This has developed over the years and a one-team lock out of the front row, as yesterday, is much more common that it should be if the driver was the main difference. During their ascendancy, the Ferrari team was the best I've ever seen. It had no weak spot. Management, development, driving (got to mention that), politics, influence, tactics, strategy: there was no weak spot. And the team had oodles of money. Whilst it ruined the racing - those days were the worst in my memory - it was impressive to see. After MSc took out Hill for the WDC the difference in PR between the two teams was astounding. Then again, at Canada when MSc took out HHFrentzen all the papers and even specialist media could talk about was MSc's [ost-race criticism of Hill weaving into the final chicane when trying to block the overtake. Very clever.

The sucking up to the bloke in charge of the FIA wasn't because they were mates. The tyres thing, very valuable of course, was excellent tactics.

The Indianapolis one-car-race epitomised the period.

We'll never know just how good MSc individually was for the team. I was a fan of HHFrentzen and I remember, albeit through the fog of time, him being luaded as the best German driver before they went into F1. It is tempting to use MSc's recent period at Merc as some form of yardstick but I'm not sure one can.

The only thing I am sure, certain, of is that the Ferrari team of that time was without peer. I felt at the time that if you took one team member away it would take little time for them to recruit an equal replacement.

Arguments persist as to which individual was the most important. I thing that's not really possible to say.

Whether MSc was the greatest driver ever, or was merely fortunate to be around at the time Ferrari was recruiting, is impossible to say. But what a team, eh?

REALIST123

3,680 posts

38 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
CiderwithCerbie said:
SeeFive said:
Tend to agree with you. Kimi hasn't exceeded my expectations, but then again, they were not that high anyway given his final year at Ferrari compared to previous years' levels of commitment. IMO, once you start to behave in a way that obviously asks questions of your commitment, and lose the hunger in any competitive sport, it rarely returns at full strength for extended periods.

Probably why your favourite 7 times WDC has not done so well this time around (or maybe it was the tyres / bargeboards / FIA etc) wink

Whoops, oh no, what have I said.

Switches off computer and heads upstairs with tail between legs.
OK you are entirely to blame for this accident!

Grrrr, arrgghhhh @#**&^%! etc.

OK please read the below carefully - I think we are all guilty of not properly reading each others contributions.

Well you know (deep breath), now that MSC has shown a measure of contrition at his second retirement interview, I am almost over it. I spent some of the week-ends looking at other F1 fora on the net and almost exactly the same stuff we have typed into these threads, in the same proportions from different (ie not obviously PH) contributors is written everywhere. It's about a 70-30 split in favour of MSC with a hard core of detractors like me, Wannaengineonthebackaxle, Cosicave, JMC-1, & Mattitakke to be found on all the sites. Even the arguments go down exactly the same lines;

He's the great 7WDC holder, he's a cheat and a danger to others, so what Senna was a cheat, no he wasn't Prost was...., what about Ferrari Int. Assistance etc. etc.

I actually think Stewart (besides his own self-promotion) got it right, Schumacher is a great driver, but not the greatest (and not in my top 10) despite the Stats that will never be repeated. [Anyone else remember people saying in 2007/8 that LH would break all Schumacher's records??]

For me, I hate the way he behaved to others up to Hungary 2010, he (and others) ruined the sport 2001-4 and the leaks about what was going on 1994/5 at Benetton don't help his cause. He will always divide opinion and that will always detract from his legacy. 2009-12 was a failure, not entirely of his own making, but he certainly initially over-estimated where he would be in the pecking order. However, I do admire that he could say he probably learnt more this time around. Failure brings perspective and that is true for all of us.

As for Kimi, I am a little bit concerned that, 'Yes/No', 'I was having a st', 'I don't care' has morphed into 'I don't give a st'.
You clearly haven't had any treatment yet, for your illness?

ajprice

9,980 posts

81 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
So, is it Alonso v Vettel for the rest of the year or do Hamilton and Raikkonen still have any real chance?

Scuffers

13,901 posts

159 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
ajprice said:
So, is it Alonso v Vettel for the rest of the year or do Hamilton and Raikkonen still have any real chance?
like to think your wrong, but I would suggest it's Vettel's to lose now...

unless RedBull have more alternator issues, Ferrari just don't have the pace.

McLaren have too high a mountain to climb, and that's assume 100% reliability, and Renault are just not good enough

Derek Smith

20,269 posts

133 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Scuffers said:
like to think your wrong, but I would suggest it's Vettel's to lose now...

unless RedBull have more alternator issues, Ferrari just don't have the pace.
The Ferrari was class of the field at the last race, at least according to Alonso. Suzuka favoured the RB so they could use their 'double diffuser' again. Whether it will be of any use again is a matter of conjecture. Further, not knocking Massa, but I feel sure that Alonso would have been faster than him so one has to wonder just how good the RB will be for the last races.

It has taken a fair bit of luck for Vettel to be on terms with Alonso. RB are bringing new aerodynamics to the next race, or perhaps the one after. One wonders if that is just an attempt to force the hands of Ferrari and all they are doing is removing the 'double diffuser'.

London424

5,356 posts

60 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Was anyone else somewhat disappointed with the Mclaren and Button yesterday?

After turn 2 he was 3rd and then ended the race 4th. I thought the car had more pace than that. Did the mess up the strategy again, or was the car just not quick enough?

speedy_thrills

5,974 posts

128 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
CiderwithCerbie said:
As for Kimi, I am a little bit concerned that, 'Yes/No', 'I was having a st', 'I don't care' has morphed into 'I don't give a st'.
In a car that has never been outstanding he has managed to out drive teams with bigger names and budgets. Lotus seem to have him pretty well managed and he probably knows he needs Lotus more than they need him at the moment.

Gene Vincent

4,002 posts

43 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
London424 said:
Was anyone else somewhat disappointed with the Mclaren and Button yesterday?

After turn 2 he was 3rd and then ended the race 4th. I thought the car had more pace than that. Did the mess up the strategy again, or was the car just not quick enough?
No, he had a penalty and started further back than he would have otherwise, had an iffy chassis, then the box gave him concern, had a less than perfect pit stop placement and dragged it home to 4th and nearly got 3rd.

Both LH and JB made a pretty good fist of a bad week-end, both cars mid-points when perhaps that was the best possible hope... hope and expectation equalled by result can only be a victory of sorts.

The car wasn't right, this happens, it could be RBR/Ferrari/Lotus next in line for the 'car vs track' lottery to throw a spanner in the works.

ajprice

9,980 posts

81 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Kimi hasn't won a race this year, but he has finished every race, and all except one in the points. Out of the points in China when the tyres fell apart on the last lap and he dropped right down. That in itself is impressive, and he has been fighting it out on the track too. He's done a pretty decent job this year.

London424

5,356 posts

60 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Gene Vincent said:
London424 said:
Was anyone else somewhat disappointed with the Mclaren and Button yesterday?

After turn 2 he was 3rd and then ended the race 4th. I thought the car had more pace than that. Did the mess up the strategy again, or was the car just not quick enough?
No, he had a penalty and started further back than he would have otherwise, had an iffy chassis, then the box gave him concern, had a less than perfect pit stop placement and dragged it home to 4th and nearly got 3rd.

Both LH and JB made a pretty good fist of a bad week-end, both cars mid-points when perhaps that was the best possible hope... hope and expectation equalled by result can only be a victory of sorts.

The car wasn't right, this happens, it could be RBR/Ferrari/Lotus next in line for the 'car vs track' lottery to throw a spanner in the works.
The penalty is irrelevant really. After turn 2 he was in 3rd place, so was just thought it was a bit of a shame they couldn't at least hold station from there.



MGJohn

8,294 posts

68 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
ajprice said:
So, is it Alonso v Vettel for the rest of the year or do Hamilton and Raikkonen still have any real chance?
No it's not just about that. It's about the five remaining races and all the cars and drivers taking part for me. Far too much focus is put on the individual drivers and who will be the Champ.

It is quite possible that neither Vettel or Alonso win any of the remaining races and for me, that would make the remaining races even more interesting.

Lots of uncertainty still. Will Grosjean or Schumacher get a twenty slot grid drop for a racing incident. Will Alonso's bad or good luck continue. Will Raikkonen change his spots and actually give a sh!t? Will Hamilton or Button ever see the podium again? Will Maldonado maintain his current unusually low profile? Will Di Resta say something really interesting?

Lots of stuff like that ~ bring it on.

For me, I will simply quote a well known phrase or saying :~

Well known phrase or saying said:
.
That's what I'm talking about.
.
... wink

CiderwithCerbie

1,420 posts

152 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
Derek Smith said:
But what a team, eh?
So was the Wermacht and friends (in the first half) - doesn't make what they were doing behind the scenes any better though does it?

CiderwithCerbie

1,420 posts

152 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
REALIST123 said:
You clearly haven't had any treatment yet, for your illness?
I thought I was doing OK, but Derek's made me have a relapse... nuts

BigBen

7,465 posts

115 months

[news] 
Monday 8th October 2012 quote quote all
London424 said:
Gene Vincent said:
London424 said:
Was anyone else somewhat disappointed with the Mclaren and Button yesterday?

After turn 2 he was 3rd and then ended the race 4th. I thought the car had more pace than that. Did the mess up the strategy again, or was the car just not quick enough?
No, he had a penalty and started further back than he would have otherwise, had an iffy chassis, then the box gave him concern, had a less than perfect pit stop placement and dragged it home to 4th and nearly got 3rd.

Both LH and JB made a pretty good fist of a bad week-end, both cars mid-points when perhaps that was the best possible hope... hope and expectation equalled by result can only be a victory of sorts.

The car wasn't right, this happens, it could be RBR/Ferrari/Lotus next in line for the 'car vs track' lottery to throw a spanner in the works.
Both McLaren and Sauber seemed to mis-time their first stops with respect to traffic thus allowing Massa to get second place. So from that pov the strategy was slightly off.
The penalty is irrelevant really. After turn 2 he was in 3rd place, so was just thought it was a bit of a shame they couldn't at least hold station from there.
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