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Derek Smith

19,796 posts

131 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
vonuber said:
So what was Balestre's agenda?
He was an odd bloke. He ran a media empire, and we all know how nice those people can be. He was also in the SS, although he suggested that he had to join before being allowed into Le Resistance, an career ladder that many doubted. Confirmation that he was a nazi came when he was awarded the Legion d'Honeur for his wartime work.

There seems little doubt that he manipulated the banning of Senna for the Suzuka off-road incident. He reasons for doing so are obscure if he did indeed hate Prost. However, it might be that he was favouring France. There was that suggestion a number of times in his career.

The similarities with his replacement were remarkable, even down to the nazi connections, the favouritism, manipulation of resultes, weird decisions against advice, upsetting constructors, and falling out with specific drivers. Both, it would seem, had Ecclestone as their campaign advisors during the election that Balestre lost.

The odd thing is that there was little rejoicing when Todt got the job, none from me, but it would seem that he's not doing a bad job considering the financial mess the FIA was left in by his predecessor. Further, many formulae were struggling. Todt has tried and failed to breathe life into the WRC but seems a little bit more successful with sport cars, albeit the jury is still out.

Suggestions that Todt might favour Ferrari might be wrong as there was a bit of a disagreement when he was left in charge. He did manage to find an unrecorded classic Ferrari though I'm told.

The position attracts oddities it seems.

DJRC

21,606 posts

119 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
There is no "if" Derek. Stop trying to cast aspersions and phrase it so it best benefits your angle. Its matter of very public record the relationship between them, hell its fairly close to the same relationship he had with most of the F1 world at the time, esp the British part of it!

JMB was old school. He was absolutely from the Enzo way of thinking as opposed to the garigistes way of thinking and never made any secret or intended to hide his bias.


vonuber

6,039 posts

48 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
DJRC said:
JMB was old school. He was absolutely from the Enzo way of thinking as opposed to the garigistes way of thinking and never made any secret or intended to hide his bias.
Explain - I only started watching F1 seriously in about '92, and really took an interest from about 95, so it's a little outside my frame of reference.

Mr_Thyroid

964 posts

110 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
Brilliant internet forum video. Convincing at first then a big pinch loony bin speculation to really get 'em going.

Derek Smith

19,796 posts

131 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
DJRC said:
There is no "if" Derek. Stop trying to cast aspersions and phrase it so it best benefits your angle. Its matter of very public record the relationship between them, hell its fairly close to the same relationship he had with most of the F1 world at the time, esp the British part of it!

JMB was old school. He was absolutely from the Enzo way of thinking as opposed to the garigistes way of thinking and never made any secret or intended to hide his bias.
Hate is a big word. Baletre was complex, and extremely shrewd. I'm not sure he hated everyone. He like to play the gallery.

I'm not sure he had the same outlook as Enzo although I think he liked to give the opinion they were similar. He played parts, as indeed we all do.

As for 'phrase it so it best beneifits your angle': hardly unique, am I.
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freedman

4,228 posts

90 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
vonuber said:
So what was Balestre's agenda?
French world champion, or Brazilian?

TVR500Morgan

995 posts

35 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
KaraK said:
It's ~23 years ago, one of the participants is dead and the other long since retired off into the sunset. Does anyone other than the OP actually care any more?
+1 to this !

Reardy Mister

11,294 posts

105 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
mattikake said:
https://vimeo.com/48685407

Catch it before FOM attempt to hide the truth (again).

Disclaimer: I made this vid ages ago and the it's a bit ropey - a couple of edits away from the final version, but doing the overlays and stills themselves took about a week. I was going to show comparison of Prost's line from Senna's perspective through 130R on a normal lap, and the lap where he was suckering him in. The difference was visual to the viewer and therefore, huge. But due to repeated blocks and attention from FOM, I lost interest.
I have nothing but time for your dedication, slight eccentricity and the fact that you simply won't let it lie.

Though it seems to me you can tell pretty much everything you need to know from the attitude of the front right wheel during the onboard shots, more clearly and with half the effort.

AreOut

868 posts

44 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
oyster said:
There is nothing honourable about giving advance notice of causing a deliberate high-speed crash.


there actually is, because when driver gives such notice they should ban him from the race, simple as that

why they didn't ban him? Well, they knew they brought the wrong decision before and wanted to "equalise" that...

mattikake

Original Poster:

4,449 posts

82 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Mr_Thyroid said:
Brilliant internet forum video. Convincing at first then a big pinch loony bin speculation to really get 'em going.
It's taken 4 pages, but someone gets it. Sparking discussion is all part of the fun, no? smile

Interesting reading Derek's and DJRC's interpretation of JMB. As far as I ever knew he was a power-crazed corrupt t0sser who's only main agenda in F1, apart from self-gratification, was to produce a French WDC to go with all the great French constructor efforts. You can't tell me, Prost being the man he was, wasn't aware of this. He knew the politics of F1 better than anyone.

I guess I watched the race broadcasts too much and the media print less so.

SpeedMattersNot

2,931 posts

79 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
I always just thought it was Prost's fault, until I watched Mattikake's video smile

entropy

2,210 posts

86 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
My tuppence:

I'm not pointing fingers. Suzuka '89 was as complex as Suzuka'90 - which the Senna documentary never fully examined which peeved off Prost.

1988 Portuguese GP - Senna squeezes Prost close to pit wall to which post-race Prost retorted "if Senna wants the championship so badly he can have it". (There was a mid-80s Canadian GP whereby Prost chopped infront of Senna which Nigel Roebuck once described as "the coldest move".)

1988 Japanese GP - pre-race there was rumours of Senna being favoured by Honda. Prost squeezes Senna and relinquishes the lead.

Senna does bugger all winter testing and is allowed extensive R&R.

1989 San Marino GP - Senna breaks gentleman's agreement (which was used in prior races) and overtakes Prost on the restart - whoever leads into first corner can win the race but restart is different to race start according to Senna.

Senna apparantly admitted his guilt by crying but the relationship becomes irrepairable after Prost bears all (supposedly off the record) to France's L'equipe.

Prost is adamant he is served second best at McLaren and signs for Ferrari.

1989 Italian GP - Prost gives his trophy to the Tifosi and breaks McLaren protocol.

1989 Japanese GP - pre-race Prost publicly says he would not leave the door open.

AreOut

868 posts

44 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
entropy said:
1988 Portuguese GP - Senna squeezes Prost close to pit wall to which post-race Prost retorted "if Senna wants the championship so badly he can have it".
that was nowhere near msc-barrichello incident, and I don't even rate it as dangerous because a lot more than a car width was given

Ahonen

3,733 posts

162 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Derek Smith said:
Todt...seems a little bit more successful with sport cars, albeit the jury is still out.
Yes, doing brilliantly. The oversubscribed, 55-car Le Mans Series has been magnificently upgraded into the 28-car WEC, playing to three-man audiences in Brazil and Bahrain who couldn't give a toss about sportscar racing. Nice one.

Le TVR

2,485 posts

134 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
entropy said:
My tuppence:

I'm not pointing fingers. Suzuka '89 was as complex as Suzuka'90 - which the Senna documentary never fully examined which peeved off Prost.

1988 Portuguese GP - Senna squeezes Prost close to pit wall to which post-race Prost retorted "if Senna wants the championship so badly he can have it". (There was a mid-80s Canadian GP whereby Prost chopped infront of Senna which Nigel Roebuck once described as "the coldest move".)

1988 Japanese GP - pre-race there was rumours of Senna being favoured by Honda. Prost squeezes Senna and relinquishes the lead.

Senna does bugger all winter testing and is allowed extensive R&R.

1989 San Marino GP - Senna breaks gentleman's agreement (which was used in prior races) and overtakes Prost on the restart - whoever leads into first corner can win the race but restart is different to race start according to Senna.

Senna apparantly admitted his guilt by crying but the relationship becomes irrepairable after Prost bears all (supposedly off the record) to France's L'equipe.

Prost is adamant he is served second best at McLaren and signs for Ferrari.

1989 Italian GP - Prost gives his trophy to the Tifosi and breaks McLaren protocol.

1989 Japanese GP - pre-race Prost publicly says he would not leave the door open.
Whoa!
This is the internet, you can't go printing what might be true thumbup

And Monza 89, Ron went ballistic punch

DJRC

21,606 posts

119 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
mattikake said:
Mr_Thyroid said:
Brilliant internet forum video. Convincing at first then a big pinch loony bin speculation to really get 'em going.
It's taken 4 pages, but someone gets it. Sparking discussion is all part of the fun, no? smile

Interesting reading Derek's and DJRC's interpretation of JMB. As far as I ever knew he was a power-crazed corrupt t0sser who's only main agenda in F1, apart from self-gratification, was to produce a French WDC to go with all the great French constructor efforts. You can't tell me, Prost being the man he was, wasn't aware of this. He knew the politics of F1 better than anyone.

I guess I watched the race broadcasts too much and the media print less so.
Given that Prost was already a double world champion, its not really a critical thing. Making a French constructor in WC is far more of a priority and esp one that *didnt* involve Prost winning!! I dont get this, do people not remember the early 80s F1 or something? JMB never forgave those who went against him in the power wars. This new revisionist history of JMB being some helping father is pretty laughable because nobody regarded him this way at the time!!!! Uttering self serving, power crazed nobber, interested only in his own French ego and keeping control of the F1 world French. JMB was all about the power.

And we all cheered when we got Max.

"Wont get fooled again..." never seemed so apt frown

The devil

2,003 posts

66 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
What a waste of time

entropy

2,210 posts

86 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Regardless of the rights and wrongs of the Japanese Grand Prix's it was the peak of the rivalry and past the point of no return.

When did it reach that point?

Whenever I revisit the rivalry the aftermath of the 1989 San Marino GP fascinates me the most.

Vocal Minority

3,544 posts

35 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
I cannot recommend Senna v Prost by Malcolm Folley highly enough. As even handed account as I have ever read.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Senna-Versus-Prost-Malcolm...

The Senna film was always going to be very pro-Senna, especially when you consider where the material came from. I am not saying it is untrue in the slightest, just that it was pro-Senna.

I get the feeling this is where most people get their opinions from. This book addresses the good points and the bad points of both men (and both men had both of these in spades!)

theshrew

3,981 posts

67 months

[news] 
Friday 5th October 2012 quote quote all
Vocal Minority said:
I cannot recommend Senna v Prost by Malcolm Folley highly enough. As even handed account as I have ever read.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Senna-Versus-Prost-Malcolm...

The Senna film was always going to be very pro-Senna, especially when you consider where the material came from. I am not saying it is untrue in the slightest, just that it was pro-Senna.

I get the feeling this is where most people get their opinions from. This book addresses the good points and the bad points of both men (and both men had both of these in spades!)
Thanks for the link. I shall order that.

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