The Official Korean GP thread (WITH SPOILERS)

[heebeegeetee]

MGJohn said:

Alonso has been with top dogs Ferrari for three seasons now. Will this be third time lucky or will he let yet another WDC opportunity pass him by in a Top car?

While Red Bull keep performing as they do, and while Adrian Newey keeps coming up with the goods, all drivers except one will have to keep watching wdc opportunities pass by.

[MGJohn]

REALIST123 said:

.
Well let's wait and see what sort of queue forms for Massa's services in 2014..........
.

Wow! Clever suggestion. Who knew?

More seriously, no need to wait. That will prove nothing. Look at many of the other drivers with too many years under their belts and the queues forming to employ them.

Many younger drivers out there looking for drives to be picked up relatively cheaply now. Unknown young pups quantities one or more of which could be the next Vettel. That's a better chance worth taking. Massa has no chance of doing that.

Mind you, if he's saved his millions and comes with a shedload of funds, he will be employable.

After three years at Ferrari and still no WDC, how much longer before Alonso the Great becomes unattractive to employ. Unless he comes with funds. He must have stashed a lot away by now.

Ferrari could have chased any of the current young guns showing promise. Ferrari have the funds. They chose to retain Massa for another season. Silly them.

Basic logistics. It is not rocket science.

[heebeegeetee]

Unknown young pups? There'll be telemetry covering every inch of every lap they've ever done since and including karting. What would be unknown about them?

[MGJohn]

heebeegeetee said:

MGJohn said:

Alonso has been with top dogs Ferrari for three seasons now. Will this be third time lucky or will he let yet another WDC opportunity pass him by in a Top car?

While Red Bull keep performing as they do, and while Adrian Newey keeps coming up with the goods, all drivers except one will have to keep watching wdc opportunities pass by.

It's not that simple. Three races ago, Vettel inherited a win when Hamilton's car coasted to a standstill. Vettel 25, Hamilton nil. Earlier in the season, several others benefitted from the bad luck or incompetence of others.

Alonso has been in with a real WDC chance on more than one occasion in the past three seasons. Vettel gave him a start and a beating before and looks like doing so again although, for several reasons, I hope it does not shape up that way yet again. OK, Alonso's been very unlucky this season but he's not the only one having bad luck in 2012, including Vettel.

I realise it will be like pulling teeth for many to admit that Vettel is the real deal, but he is. Like it or lump it. Some say it's only the car. Not me. Include me out.....

Those Vettel to Ferrari in 2014 rumours. Any credence? I think Mercedes is more likely.

Over the past three seasons, the most consistently reliable manufacturer has been ... Renault ... their engines. Yet again a fine showing by Renault power on Sunday just past.

[MGJohn]

heebeegeetee said:

Unknown young pups? There'll be telemetry covering every inch of every lap they've ever done since and including karting. What would be unknown about them?

So let them buy a computer print out driver. How they perform when the chips are down in a Top Car with more experienced drivers around them is something no telemetry will show .... until they actually do it!

A number of well known drivers had better pre-F1 form than their pre-F1 peers but, that did not translate into being better than them in the reality of F1 .

[deadslow]

MGJohn said:

OK, Alonso's been very unlucky this season but he's not the only one having bad luck in 2012, including Vettel.

Not sure Vettel has been unlucky. Component failures are not a matter of luck imho.

[heebeegeetee]

MGJohn said:

It's not that simple. Three races ago, Vettel inherited a win when Hamilton's car coasted to a standstill. Vettel 25, Hamilton nil. Earlier in the season, several others benefitted from the bad luck or incompetence of others.

Alonso has been in with a real WDC chance on more than one occasion in the past three seasons. Vettel gave him a start and a beating before and looks like doing so again although, for several reasons, I hope it does not shape up that way yet again. OK, Alonso's been very unlucky this season but he's not the only one having bad luck in 2012, including Vettel.

I realise it will be like pulling teeth for many to admit that Vettel is the real deal, but he is. Like it or lump it. Some say it's only the car. Not me. Include me out.....

Those Vettel to Ferrari in 2014 rumours. Any credence? I think Mercedes is more likely.

Over the past three seasons, the most consistently reliable manufacturer has been ... Renault ... their engines. Yet again a fine showing by Renault power on Sunday just past.

I think it's entirely that simple. I think RB are going to win the championships again, and that is because they are the best team and have been for the past 3-4 years. Christian Horner is clearly a very good manager and Adrian Newey is by far the best designer in recent years. It's hard work for that team not to win, they have a great manager, a great designer and a great driver. It's the full package and no other team on the grid can match them. I think it's that simple.

And if Seb does go on to win, it will of course mean that no other driver has won for three years. So why pick Alonso out of that large group of non-winning drivers? He's only been as successful or unsuccessful as *all* the others. If it's the drivers that win the championships and not the designers, in your mind, then Alonso is every bit as good or bad as all the others. So why pick him out?

If Seb does the triple run it's gonna put him in a small group of three drivers who have done that. The likes of Clark, Stewart and Senna never managed it. If that's all down to Seb's talent and not the car or team John, then certainly to your mind that makes Seb very markedly better than all his peers and nearly every other driver in F1 since 1950 too.

Me, I think Seb's clearly very, very good but I haven't seen the evidence that he's markedly better than some others in the current championship nor markedly better than some of the stellar names of the past. Certainly, to my mind Alonso has had no business leading this year's championship for so long, that's for sure.

[heebeegeetee]

deadslow said:

Not sure Vettel has been unlucky. Component failures are not a matter of luck imho.

I'm not aware of Alonso being unlucky either, I think he's been remarkably consistent.

I don't see luck playing much of a part of this year's championship. They've all had their ups and downs, I don't really see luck playing much part of it.

I certainly don't see McL as being unlucky for their mechanical and strategic unreliability; that's just the typical McL of recent years, and certainly no driver is going to change that.

[MGJohn]

Bedazzled said:

Massa's stats at Ferrari...



I think that tells us something. I hope his recent form may turn this around, he's a nice guy and it would be great to see him win a race or at least get a podium.

When did Alonso ( No. 1) arrive on the scene in that table?

Did I imagine the Alonso ... is ... faster ... than ... you business ?

[MGJohn]

heebeegeetee said:

I'm not aware of Alonso being unlucky either, I think he's been remarkably consistent.

Yes, remarkably consistent when allowed to be so.

Alonso has had two NIL points DNFs being taken out by the "antics" of others. That's a lot of WDC points going AWOL. Something he has very little control over. In my way of seeing things, that is bad luck. It could have been two other drivers instead.

DNFs which are not self inflicted are bad luck.

[joema]

Whether or not he was taken out at Suzuka is debatable... Caused that one himself imo

[heebeegeetee]

joema said:

Whether or not he was taken out at Suzuka is debatable... Caused that one himself imo

I agree, and possibly his only mistake so far this season too. I think all of his rivals have done more than that. i think they've possibly all had as least as many non-fault dnfs.

[AreOut]

nah I think that was not his mistake(nor Kimis), just the bad luck...his mistake was in Canada when he didn't listen to the pitwall when they told him to pit, if he did he would still be in front of Vettel...other than that this was one of close to perfect seasons I have yet to see from any other driver(considering the car ofc)

[TheHeretic]

In see Jackie Stweart has been prattling again. He says if Vettel wins his 3rd WDC then he still will not be considered a great. His reasoning is that he had superior machinery... A bit like his Tyrrell, really.

[anonymous-user]

MGJohn said:

Bedazzled said:

Massa's stats at Ferrari...



I think that tells us something. I hope his recent form may turn this around, he's a nice guy and it would be great to see him win a race or at least get a podium.

When did Alonso ( No. 1) arrive on the scene in that table?

Did I imagine the Alonso ... is ... faster ... than ... you business ?

Of course you didn't imagine it. Clearly Alonso is faster than Massa.

Basic 'logistics' (sic).........

[MGJohn]

REALIST123 said:

MGJohn said:

Bedazzled said:

Massa's stats at Ferrari...



I think that tells us something. I hope his recent form may turn this around, he's a nice guy and it would be great to see him win a race or at least get a podium.

When did Alonso ( No. 1) arrive on the scene in that table?

Did I imagine the Alonso ... is ... faster ... than ... you business ?

Of course you didn't imagine it. Clearly Alonso is faster than Massa.

Basic 'logistics' (sic).........

Clearly so would I be in a faster car.

So, if he is, how come he's behind Massa?

Deliberately side stepping my point. Well done.

[MGJohn]

TheHeretic said:

In see Jackie Stweart has been prattling again. He says if Vettel wins his 3rd WDC then he still will not be considered a great. His reasoning is that he had superior machinery... A bit like his Tyrrell, really.

Good grief. Do you have a link?

I saw that geezer performing way back when when there was much to admire. If he's really saying things like that and continues to do so in recent years, he has gone even further down in my esteem.

[TheHeretic]

MGJohn said:

Good grief. Do you have a link?

I saw that geezer performing way back when when there was much to admire. If he's really saying things like that and continues to do so in recent years, he has gone even further down in my esteem.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/19969175

[MGJohn]

joema said:

Whether or not he was taken out at Suzuka is debatable... Caused that one himself imo

Yes, there could have been an element of self inflicted in that Alonso DNF. However, it was not as a direct result of blatant 'Gungho' driving like other incidents that come to mind, including the most recent incident involving Kobayashi and previous ones involving Grosjean and others etc.

[vonuber]

AreOut said:

(considering the car ofc)

Which is fast enough to win.