The Official Korean GP thread (WITH SPOILERS)
Discussion
RichB said:
Bedazzled said:
Vettel is a modern-day Jimmy Clark...
Except that Clarke would race a GP car one weekend and the next go out in a Lotus Cortina and win in that too. With Vettel we will never know but Clark proved his versatility and ability to win in a variety of cars, Vettel hasn't yet done so. Bedazzled said:
Vettel is a modern-day Jimmy Clark...
Yes, the first since Clark who has reminded me of that.I'd like to see him in a Lotus Cortina or the modern day equivalent. I'd bet he'd be a tad useful.
I can only fault Vettel on one serious issue, he was not born in the UK ...
EDIT to add @ 00:51
F1 drivers in Touring cars.
My all time favourite Driver was Mansell. He had a short spell in TCs and was most entertaining and sometimes spectacular.
Edited by MGJohn on Friday 19th October 00:51
Bedazzled said:
Vettel is a modern-day Jimmy Clark, perhaps not many would agree but that's how I see it. He's in the best machinery because he's the fastest driver, his only slight weakness is when he's under pressure. I don't think Alonso would be quite as fast over a single lap, but he makes up for it with his racecraft. The pair of them are the class of the field, imho.
If we do get to see them go head-to-head at Ferrari in 2014 it would be fantastic, perhaps that's what Jackie Stewart is hinting at...?
I think there's still some evidence that Seb is the fastest driver because Adrian Newey is in the team, whom RB is getting the absolute most out of. I think if you put any of the current top drivers in that car they'll be doing the same, or indeed as Alonso has been ahead of the RB's for most of the season, he'd have done even better had he been in an RB.If we do get to see them go head-to-head at Ferrari in 2014 it would be fantastic, perhaps that's what Jackie Stewart is hinting at...?
I don't want to take much away from Seb, but I agree with Stewart, you only really find out how great a driver is when he's not racing with a distinct advantage, and that's why I think the evidence is strong at the moment that FA is the better driver.
Seb is great for being 'on it' all the time though.
Why are people have discussions about drivers in the racing we see now? For at least the last 10 years, probably more, the person in the best car wins.
In years gone by driver skill was a much greater influence with no electronics and driver aids etc. but if you aren't in the best car it doesn't matter how good you might be.
In years gone by driver skill was a much greater influence with no electronics and driver aids etc. but if you aren't in the best car it doesn't matter how good you might be.
TheHeretic said:
Steady on there little fella. I never said his Tyrrell was dominant, so either you need to get your eyes checked, or you need to stop reading I to what I wrote. The Tyrrell was an excellent car, and was as good as any that year.
Sorry you didn't say dominant you said superior. Which apparently in your language now means 'as good as any'.Maybe you need to get a dictionary there little fella.
heebeegeetee said:
Bedazzled said:
Vettel is a modern-day Jimmy Clark, perhaps not many would agree but that's how I see it. He's in the best machinery because he's the fastest driver, his only slight weakness is when he's under pressure. I don't think Alonso would be quite as fast over a single lap, but he makes up for it with his racecraft. The pair of them are the class of the field, imho.
If we do get to see them go head-to-head at Ferrari in 2014 it would be fantastic, perhaps that's what Jackie Stewart is hinting at...?
I think there's still some evidence that Seb is the fastest driver because Adrian Newey is in the team, whom RB is getting the absolute most out of. I think if you put any of the current top drivers in that car they'll be doing the same, or indeed as Alonso has been ahead of the RB's for most of the season, he'd have done even better had he been in an RB.If we do get to see them go head-to-head at Ferrari in 2014 it would be fantastic, perhaps that's what Jackie Stewart is hinting at...?
I don't want to take much away from Seb, but I agree with Stewart, you only really find out how great a driver is when he's not racing with a distinct advantage, and that's why I think the evidence is strong at the moment that FA is the better driver.
Seb is great for being 'on it' all the time though.
As nobody appears to have suggested this, I will.
Put Vettel in either of the two current Ferraris and he would do better than their driver line up. I'd even put money on it.
MGJohn said:
Put Vettel in either of the two current Ferraris and he would do better than their driver line up. I'd even put money on it.
I don't think so. Vettel still seems to get a little rattled when things don't go his way, whereas this year Alonso has really impressed me with how he's got on with the job in a Ferrari which isn't the best and ground out some great results.I like the idea of the two being in the same team so we can really find out, but will be surprised if it actually happens
MGJohn said:
Some go with the flow PHer reasoning there.
As nobody appears to have suggested this, I will.
Put Vettel in either of the two current Ferraris and he would do better than their driver line up. I'd even put money on it.
I wouldn't, and I'd suggest there is nothing in Seb's history to show that he would have done a better job than Alonso. I think he would have made more mistakes and had more 'skirmishes' and thus lost more points than FA.As nobody appears to have suggested this, I will.
Put Vettel in either of the two current Ferraris and he would do better than their driver line up. I'd even put money on it.
Seb has shown himself to be vulnerable when under pressure.
heebeegeetee said:
Seb has shown himself to be vulnerable when under pressure.
So has Alonso the Great.Not this season but in the past. Vettel is still young enough to continue improving further. I cannot see Alonso doing that to the same extent if at all.
There's a covert reason he considered Hamilton over Vettel.
I don't see how we continue to try and make comparisons between sporting greats where the formulas only real similarities are that they each had 4 wheels on their cars.
Tracks, Risks, demands on drivers, are completely different and unfortunately unless there can be a 2nd coming of a few drivers and the likes of Vettel can be transported back 50 years, it's impossible to compare.
Purely as a token comparison. I can easily do a 7ish minute lap of the Nurburgring on a playstation. Throw in real risk and oddly my times are not so good.
Current F1 drivers are athletically challenged perhaps more than any previous, but skill and risk has been significantly ironed out by the modern cars & tracks.
I'd guess that Hamilton could cut it, or at least would try (purely a gut feeling on this one). Many other F1 drivers, I'm less sure of.
Tracks, Risks, demands on drivers, are completely different and unfortunately unless there can be a 2nd coming of a few drivers and the likes of Vettel can be transported back 50 years, it's impossible to compare.
Purely as a token comparison. I can easily do a 7ish minute lap of the Nurburgring on a playstation. Throw in real risk and oddly my times are not so good.
Current F1 drivers are athletically challenged perhaps more than any previous, but skill and risk has been significantly ironed out by the modern cars & tracks.
I'd guess that Hamilton could cut it, or at least would try (purely a gut feeling on this one). Many other F1 drivers, I'm less sure of.
angrymoby said:
*If* Fernando has agreed to Seb joining him at Ferrari & *If* he vetoed Hamilton ...that's one hell of a back-handed compliment
Yes IF is a BIG little word. What goes on in the minds and behind closely shut doors is something else entirely. Who has the final say, Alonso or Ferrari come 2014 ? By then if no more WDCs for Ferrari .... there's that IF word again ..
Fire99 said:
I don't see how we continue to try and make comparisons between sporting greats where the formulas only real similarities are that they each had 4 wheels on their cars.
Tracks, Risks, demands on drivers, are completely different and unfortunately unless there can be a 2nd coming of a few drivers and the likes of Vettel can be transported back 50 years, it's impossible to compare.
Purely as a token comparison. I can easily do a 7ish minute lap of the Nurburgring on a playstation. Throw in real risk and oddly my times are not so good.
Current F1 drivers are athletically challenged perhaps more than any previous, but skill and risk has been significantly ironed out by the modern cars & tracks.
I'd guess that Hamilton could cut it, or at least would try (purely a gut feeling on this one). Many other F1 drivers, I'm less sure of.
Largely in agreement with much of that. It does help to pass the time though, plus, my favourite driver is better than your'n. Tracks, Risks, demands on drivers, are completely different and unfortunately unless there can be a 2nd coming of a few drivers and the likes of Vettel can be transported back 50 years, it's impossible to compare.
Purely as a token comparison. I can easily do a 7ish minute lap of the Nurburgring on a playstation. Throw in real risk and oddly my times are not so good.
Current F1 drivers are athletically challenged perhaps more than any previous, but skill and risk has been significantly ironed out by the modern cars & tracks.
I'd guess that Hamilton could cut it, or at least would try (purely a gut feeling on this one). Many other F1 drivers, I'm less sure of.
Fire99 said:
.
I don't see how we continue to try and make comparisons between sporting greats where the formulas only real similarities are that they each had 4 wheels on their cars.
.
Oh no they haven't ...I don't see how we continue to try and make comparisons between sporting greats where the formulas only real similarities are that they each had 4 wheels on their cars.
.
Unless I was suffering with double vision at the time, I distinctly remember seeing a certain blue F1 jobbie with three axles and SIX wheels.
Pedant moi, nah ... never in a millyon ...
More seriously, the cars must be much more physically easier to drive because if not, how come so many F1 drivers are of slight built and knee high to a grasshopper with high knees.
They do not have to physically change gear now for many years, that's done for them by a simple press of a button with both hands still on the steering wheel. I cannot remember seeing a genuinely exhausted driver assisted from his car at the end of a GP, sometimes with bleeding hands from 100s of difficult gear changes for many seasons now.
I would expect that less physically substantial drivers such as Massa, Vettel, Hamilton et al would expire from exhaustion in the Grand Prix cars and tracks of the distant past and fail to reach the finish line.
Yes, such different era comparisons are a pointless exercise but, a thought provoking one.
heebeegeetee said:
I wouldn't, and I'd suggest there is nothing in Seb's history to show that he would have done a better job than Alonso.
I would, his drives in the BMW and Torro Rosso indicate he has the talent to perform in cars that are not the best. Don't forget he was the first get a pole and to win a race for Red Bull (doing better than Coulthard, Webber etc), as well as being the youngest driver to score points, win a race for two different teams and so on.Of course, just my opinion which is worth naff all
Edited by vonuber on Friday 19th October 13:45
Fire99 said:
Current F1 drivers are athletically challenged perhaps more than any previous, but skill and risk has been significantly ironed out by the modern cars & tracks.
When I first looked at this I read it as Current F1 drivers are aesthetically challenged perhaps more than any previous,
Yep, mingers the lot of 'em.
Gaz. said:
I presume you missed the changing fitness regime these F1 drivers have to prepare them for races? Look how absolutely f
ked Mansell looked in 1992 when arguably in his prime to a very fresh Schumacher in the same year and the years immediately after. Ayrton was perhaps one of the first to really think about fitness but it was Schumacher who was the first to train like a triathlete and paved the way for what would become the normal training schedule for todays drivers.
No, ' course I didn't. All quite true of course but, the fact remains, today's F1 cars are easier to drive.ked Mansell looked in 1992 when arguably in his prime to a very fresh Schumacher in the same year and the years immediately after. Ayrton was perhaps one of the first to really think about fitness but it was Schumacher who was the first to train like a triathlete and paved the way for what would become the normal training schedule for todays drivers. Mansell sometimes drove carrying serious injury which has plagued him for many years since and will never really go away. I am not confused by the differences between fitness and injury. There were times he participated when he should have been home recovering.
To illustrate the point, compare how the previously ultra-fit Stoner has been shaping up in MotoGP recently .... sudden loss of fitness, form or what?
Put any of the lightweight and very fit F1 drivers of today in say a pre-WW11 Auto-Union, Mercedes-Benz or what have you and, despite fitness, they would struggle simply because of less volume, bulk, strength and stamina.
Size does matter ...
The cars of today favour smaller, slimmer, lighter drivers. Even someone relatively taller like Webber almost becomes invisible when viewed from the side. OK, an exaggeration but useful to illustrate the point. Check it next time he's on camera. Edited by MGJohn on Friday 19th October 16:40
Bedazzled said:
Who are the least accident-prone of the current F1 drivers? The rest would probably be dead by now if they raced in the 60's / 70's.
If any of the F1 drivers of the past few decades driving the way they do now on the safer tracks and cars of today drove like that on the much more demanding and unforgiving tracks of the past would all be dead meat now, Schumacher included. Make a driver error today and they often recover and continue to race and even go on to win rather than register a DNF.
Drive like that on those old tracks and cars and that would invariably result in a DNF .... sadly often a very, very final DNF.
The parameters are not the same. Huge differences.
To answer your question who ... a close run thing between Button and Alonso. They are survivors drivers. Rarely if ever deploying 11/10ths style.
Edited by MGJohn on Friday 19th October 16:49
Why would the current drivers struggle? Apart from possibly far heavier steering, modern drivers have to cope with far higher G then drivers of old. Why do you think they would struggle, and do you think drivers of old would struggle in modern F1 cars with the fitness they had back in the day?
Gaz. said:
I presume you missed the changing fitness regime these F1 drivers have to prepare them for races? Look how absolutely fked Mansell looked in 1992 when arguably in his prime to a very fresh Schumacher in the same year and the years immediately after. Ayrton was perhaps one of the first to really think about fitness but it was Schumacher who was the first to train like a triathlete and paved the way for what would become the normal training schedule for todays drivers.
kind of a bad example, Mansell always was a drama queen, he did the same sked Mansell looked in 1992 when arguably in his prime to a very fresh Schumacher in the same year and the years immediately after. Ayrton was perhaps one of the first to really think about fitness but it was Schumacher who was the first to train like a triathlete and paved the way for what would become the normal training schedule for todays drivers. t in touring cars, etc.you never saw James Hunt flop out of the car did you?
TheHeretic said:
Why would the current drivers struggle? Apart from possibly far heavier steering, modern drivers have to cope with far higher G then drivers of old. Why do you think they would struggle, and do you think drivers of old would struggle in modern F1 cars with the fitness they had back in the day?
Look at the size and stature of the drivers of those monsters from bygone years. Then compare the average modern lightweight small of stature drivers of recent years.Coincidence or is there a more substantial reason. Substantial being the operative word.
Scuffers said:
kind of a bad example, Mansell always was a drama queen, he did the same st in touring cars, etc.
you never saw James Hunt flop out of the car did you?
Did Hunt suffer lasting injury ever during his "Hunt the Shut" mode?t in touring cars, etc.you never saw James Hunt flop out of the car did you?
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