Senna over rated
Discussion
fatboy69 said:
Sid Watkins said that Senna did not have so much as a bruise on him, let alone any broken bones, & had the steering arm not pierced his helmet where it did Ayrton would have walked away from the accident.
He didn't have a broken neck or a fractured skull.
The suspension arm pierced his helmet - 6 inches higher or lower & he would have survived the accident.
Absolutely right, pure bad luck that he didn't just walk away from the accident; however, the cause of it still seems to be a matter of debate and perhaps always will be..... He didn't have a broken neck or a fractured skull.
The suspension arm pierced his helmet - 6 inches higher or lower & he would have survived the accident.
fatboy69 said:
Sid Watkins said that Senna did not have so much as a bruise on him, let alone any broken bones, & had the steering arm not pierced his helmet where it did Ayrton would have walked away from the accident.
He didn't have a broken neck or a fractured skull.
The suspension arm pierced his helmet - 6 inches higher or lower & he would have survived the accident.
Where does this 'myth' about saint Senna come from?He didn't have a broken neck or a fractured skull.
The suspension arm pierced his helmet - 6 inches higher or lower & he would have survived the accident.
"When Sid Watkins arrived at Maggiore, he conferred with the doctors who had been treating Senna. They had ordered an immediate brain scan. It merely confirmed that Senna had no chance of surviving the accident. Watkins was told Senna had multiple fractures of the base of the skull where his head had smashed into the carbon-fibre headrest of the monocoque. What had likely happened was that the right front wheel had shot up after impact like a catapult and violated the cockpit area where Senna was sitting. It impacted the right frontal area of his helmet, and the violence of the wheel’s impact pushed his head back against the headrest, causing the fatal skull fractures. A piece of upright attached to the wheel had partially penetrated his helmet and made a big indent in his forehead. In addition, it appeared that a jagged piece of the upright assembly had penetrated the helmet visor just above his right eye. Any one of the three injuries would probably have killed him. The combination of them all made it certain. Only Senna’s extremely high level of fitness meant he had momentarily survived. He suffered brain death on impact but the lack of any physical injury to the rest of his body meant that his heart and lungs continued to function. The neurosurgeon who examined Senna said that the circumstances did not call for surgery because the wound was generalised in the cranium. But an X-ray of the damage to his skull and brain indicated he would not last long, even with a machine maintaining his vital functions."
& that's not just a wiki copy & paste ...it's in both of the Senna books i've read
coppice said:
This Brit didn't boo Senna in 89 - only a tiny minority of idiots did. Most of us were there to enjoy the race and support whoever won. Motor sport's general lack of tribalism is one of its main appeals to many.
Unless you take modern MotoGP as an example.very similar to Prost/Senna is the Rossi/Stoner story, in Rossi you had the 'complete' rider, the main draw for the fans, the popular culture behind most fans who taken an interest in GP's since 2000, then you have Stoner, perhaps the most gifted man ever to sit on a GP bike, his main goal was winning, not popularity contests, and because of that he is constantly slated by those blind fans of VR46, to the point where he has had enough and now retired.
I remember at Donington when stoner obliterated everyone the Rossi fans invaded the start finish straight then proceeded to Boo stoner out the circuit, makes me sick really.
In reference to the OP, No, Senna wasnt over rated, thats about a idiotic as the vettel fans now saying he is the best ever.
I guess you mean over rated as a 'complete racing driver', not simply driver?. He's not over rated as a driver. One of the quickest ever in F1. If you could choose one driver in the history of the sport to qualify your car you would most likely choose Ayrton Senna. You could say his on track racing ethics were unacceptable at times which is why as a comlpete racing driver others are probably equal, possibly marginally better (clark, possibly Prost ect. ect.).
thiscocks said:
I guess you mean over rated as a 'complete racing driver', not simply driver?. He's not over rated as a driver. One of the quickest ever in F1. If you could choose one driver in the history of the sport to qualify your car you would most likely choose Ayrton Senna. You could say his on track racing ethics were unacceptable at times which is why as a comlpete racing driver others are probably equal, possibly marginally better (clark, possibly Prost ect. ect.).
This, I think, brings the thread full circle. Even before his death, it would have been the quest of a lifetime to find any witnesses who would dispute that Senna was one of the fastest drivers ever to take the wheel of an F1 car, quite possibly [i]the[/-] fastest.In fact, the one thing that, in my experience, sets Senna apart from absolutely every other great champion who has raced within my lifetime is that I have never heard anyone claim Senna's speed was down to anything other than his ability as a driver. I've heard people argue that Prost wasn't that quick, it was all down to his ability to land a seat in the best car. Schumacher wasn't that quick, it was all down to cheating and bespoke tyres. Vettel gets his speed from Newey, Hamilton from a lifetime of grooming by McLaren, Alonso, well, he's always called the most complete driver, not the fastest.
I've never heard anything like that for Senna. Even from his detractors, I've never heard one say he wasn't super fast.
On that measure, no I don't think Senna is overrated. Calling him the fastest F1 driver ever is an unprovable claim that has very good odds of being true. Best ever is a slightly different matter, more debatable, but even then it's not over rating him to claim he deserves his place in a debate about who the best ever is.
He had faults and weaknesses, but his strength, his speed and his ability to maintain it, were so far above most drivers of the day that as an overall package he had the measure of anyone.
Gaz. said:
norfolkscooby said:
very similar to Prost/Senna is the Rossi/Stoner story, in Rossi you had the 'complete' rider, the main draw for the fans, the popular culture behind most fans who taken an interest in GP's since 2000, then you have Stoner, perhaps the most gifted man ever to sit on a GP bike, his main goal was winning, not popularity contests, and because of that he is constantly slated by those blind fans of VR46, to the point where he has had enough and now retired.
While I agree completely, perhaps if Stoner had tried to be a bit more popular maybe he wouldn't have retired under such a cloud.Rossi knew how to get a crowd behind him, when to get inside the heads of his competitors and when to turn on the charm to the press. Stoner let Rossi play him like a banjo, where's Lorenzo had none of it and if anything made Rossi's antics look stupid.
Usual Aussie way though, Gardner, Doohan were the same, flat out on track and didnt give 2 hoots about popularity.
Blimey, never even occured to me to ask is Stoner as good/better than Rossi. No offence to Casey, but Rossi is head and shoulders the best and quickest bloke on 2 wheels Ive ever seen.
That includes Garder, Doohan and Rainey...and I never thought Id see anybody who was better than Quick Mick or Wayne.
The only question we will never know is how good Foggy was compared to the GP greats because he never rode them and frankly at the time the Superbike series was arguably the top series not the GP boys. I have a sneaking suspicion that Foggy could hold his own in some exalted GP company.
Would love to see Rossi and Stoner on the TT though. Stoner can play Mr Be At Home boy all season long, just get to the IOM for a week. Want to be a true legend Casey? Put it on the Mountain.
That includes Garder, Doohan and Rainey...and I never thought Id see anybody who was better than Quick Mick or Wayne.
The only question we will never know is how good Foggy was compared to the GP greats because he never rode them and frankly at the time the Superbike series was arguably the top series not the GP boys. I have a sneaking suspicion that Foggy could hold his own in some exalted GP company.
Would love to see Rossi and Stoner on the TT though. Stoner can play Mr Be At Home boy all season long, just get to the IOM for a week. Want to be a true legend Casey? Put it on the Mountain.
What I find remarkable about this thread is that if Senna was over rated, then it wasn't by very much and he is undoubtedly one of the greats despite being romanticised into a James Dean like figure. For me, Senna was not the most exciting and creative wheel to wheel racer - that accolade will always belong to Mansell for me having watched that whole era of racing.
Surely a more pertinent debate is whether Sebastian Vettel is over-rated - which he clearly is based on his school boy, 6th former L plate attempts at over-taking and wheel to wheel racing, yet all we hear is Murray Walker, who should know better frankly, s
tting on about how great he is.
I can't believe people are watching the same channel that I am on a Sunday afternoon.
Surely a more pertinent debate is whether Sebastian Vettel is over-rated - which he clearly is based on his school boy, 6th former L plate attempts at over-taking and wheel to wheel racing, yet all we hear is Murray Walker, who should know better frankly, s
tting on about how great he is. I can't believe people are watching the same channel that I am on a Sunday afternoon.
DJRC said:
Blimey, never even occured to me to ask is Stoner as good/better than Rossi. No offence to Casey, but Rossi is head and shoulders the best and quickest bloke on 2 wheels Ive ever seen.
That includes Garder, Doohan and Rainey...and I never thought Id see anybody who was better than Quick Mick or Wayne.
The only question we will never know is how good Foggy was compared to the GP greats because he never rode them and frankly at the time the Superbike series was arguably the top series not the GP boys. I have a sneaking suspicion that Foggy could hold his own in some exalted GP company.
Would love to see Rossi and Stoner on the TT though. Stoner can play Mr Be At Home boy all season long, just get to the IOM for a week. Want to be a true legend Casey? Put it on the Mountain.
As ive said before, VR MIGHT be the GOAT but he isnt the fastest man on 2 wheels, and he certainly cant ride around problems like others. Its widely accepted on pure pace and ability Stoner is the better rider, but rossi is the more complete sportsman.That includes Garder, Doohan and Rainey...and I never thought Id see anybody who was better than Quick Mick or Wayne.
The only question we will never know is how good Foggy was compared to the GP greats because he never rode them and frankly at the time the Superbike series was arguably the top series not the GP boys. I have a sneaking suspicion that Foggy could hold his own in some exalted GP company.
Would love to see Rossi and Stoner on the TT though. Stoner can play Mr Be At Home boy all season long, just get to the IOM for a week. Want to be a true legend Casey? Put it on the Mountain.
vonuber said:
Clevers said:
I can't believe people are watching the same channel that I am on a Sunday afternoon.
Well maybe the answer is that you are wrong in your opinion?
Love it! Maybe Murray Walker knows a thing or two about racing, what with him seen 'em all race from back in the day. Maybe, just maybe he understands that there is no point in comparing racers from different eras, unlike the fanboys who are hell bent on silly, willy waving contests for their chosen 'great'. Dr Z said:
Love it! Maybe Murray Walker knows a thing or two about racing, what with him seen 'em all race from back in the day. Maybe, just maybe he understands that there is no point in comparing racers from different eras, unlike the fanboys who are hell bent on silly, willy waving contests for their chosen 'great'. Anyway, I wasn't comparing. Observing on what I have witnessed over the last few years.
Clevers said:
It's bad to laugh at your own jokes....especially when they are not funny.
Anyway, I wasn't comparing. Observing on what I have witnessed over the last few years.
Well then, let's not derail this thread further by going off on a tangent. Feel free to start a new thread with your esteemed viewpoints on Vettel. I'm sure it'll be an interesting read. Oh wait, what could you say that's not been said already. Might as well save the bandwidth... Anyway, I wasn't comparing. Observing on what I have witnessed over the last few years.
Dr Z said:
Clevers said:
It's bad to laugh at your own jokes....especially when they are not funny.
Anyway, I wasn't comparing. Observing on what I have witnessed over the last few years.
Well then, let's not derail this thread further by going off on a tangent. Feel free to start a new thread with your esteemed viewpoints on Vettel. I'm sure it'll be an interesting read. Oh wait, what could you say that's not been said already. Might as well save the bandwidth... Anyway, I wasn't comparing. Observing on what I have witnessed over the last few years.
FYI Stoner tore Rossi a new rsehole in terms of new definitions of speed and talent.
mattikake said:
Dr Z said:
Clevers said:
It's bad to laugh at your own jokes....especially when they are not funny.
Anyway, I wasn't comparing. Observing on what I have witnessed over the last few years.
Well then, let's not derail this thread further by going off on a tangent. Feel free to start a new thread with your esteemed viewpoints on Vettel. I'm sure it'll be an interesting read. Oh wait, what could you say that's not been said already. Might as well save the bandwidth... Anyway, I wasn't comparing. Observing on what I have witnessed over the last few years.
FYI Stoner tore Rossi a new rsehole in terms of new definitions of speed and talent.
I'll leave you to it, whatever it is.
Edited by Dr Z on Saturday 8th December 12:16
Gaz. said:
norfolkscooby said:
Agree with you Gaz, ironic that now Rossi has abysmally failed on the Ducati Casey will finally get the Credit he rightly deserves, just as he is retiring.
Usual Aussie way though, Gardner, Doohan were the same, flat out on track and didnt give 2 hoots about popularity.
Gardner is before my time, Doohan though didn't go out of his way to make himself unpopular, he was like Mark Webber and just told it like it was and he received a boatload of respect because of his shattered legs. Usual Aussie way though, Gardner, Doohan were the same, flat out on track and didnt give 2 hoots about popularity.
Casey would have received credit had he put some effort into his PR, even Pedrosa who is as divisive as anyone makes an effort to put himself in the best light possible. Not giving two hoots about popularity is fine if you genuinely don't care, the thing is Casey did care about being unpopular, especially in the times of partisan crowds that have been creeping in worldwide - Ryder quipped last season that every race for Rossi is a home race when you look at the sea of yellow in every grandstand, including the Australian and Spanish events.
Casey was doing what he always did, and demoralising the superteens field and after each race he would ride around without taking his hands off the bars.
"Why don't you wave to the fans Casey, they'd like that"
"nah, i'd feel a right dick doing that"
He was so embarassed about how easy it was to win, he rode around in shame, and consequently, the general public in the uk at least, decided he was arrogant,aloof etc etc
norfolkscooby said:
DJRC said:
Blimey, never even occured to me to ask is Stoner as good/better than Rossi. No offence to Casey, but Rossi is head and shoulders the best and quickest bloke on 2 wheels Ive ever seen.
That includes Garder, Doohan and Rainey...and I never thought Id see anybody who was better than Quick Mick or Wayne.
The only question we will never know is how good Foggy was compared to the GP greats because he never rode them and frankly at the time the Superbike series was arguably the top series not the GP boys. I have a sneaking suspicion that Foggy could hold his own in some exalted GP company.
Would love to see Rossi and Stoner on the TT though. Stoner can play Mr Be At Home boy all season long, just get to the IOM for a week. Want to be a true legend Casey? Put it on the Mountain.
As ive said before, VR MIGHT be the GOAT but he isnt the fastest man on 2 wheels, and he certainly cant ride around problems like others. Its widely accepted on pure pace and ability Stoner is the better rider, but rossi is the more complete sportsman.That includes Garder, Doohan and Rainey...and I never thought Id see anybody who was better than Quick Mick or Wayne.
The only question we will never know is how good Foggy was compared to the GP greats because he never rode them and frankly at the time the Superbike series was arguably the top series not the GP boys. I have a sneaking suspicion that Foggy could hold his own in some exalted GP company.
Would love to see Rossi and Stoner on the TT though. Stoner can play Mr Be At Home boy all season long, just get to the IOM for a week. Want to be a true legend Casey? Put it on the Mountain.
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