Senna over rated
Discussion
When you first see clips of Senna's more aggressive moments you tend to think such things. Yet as others have said, when you research the circumstances of theses incidents you tend to get a far more accurate understanding of them.
on another note, Heres a wet clip from 93, rather famous, rather awsome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0ALO9aiSx8
EDIT- You clearly werent watching the doc properly, when he crashed into Prost it was due to many frustrations, the change in the pole posistion side, the events from previous races and the FIA, the rivalry with Prost.
on another note, Heres a wet clip from 93, rather famous, rather awsome.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0ALO9aiSx8
EDIT- You clearly werent watching the doc properly, when he crashed into Prost it was due to many frustrations, the change in the pole posistion side, the events from previous races and the FIA, the rivalry with Prost.
Edited by Fantuzzi on Saturday 24th November 20:14
Whilst it is true that Senna had some flawed aspects to his personality, I have to say as someone who grew up watching him race that his abilities in the car were probably unique - maybe just edged in pure natural talent by Jim Clark.
There is no way he is over rated as a driver - he was incredible. If he had lived then maybe he had at least another two championships in him.
Of course his early death means he is romanticised and has taken on an almost mythical aura - and I am probably as guilty of this as anyone if I am completely honest - but we all need a hero and growing up he was mine.
Sounds a bit poncy but I recently had a chance to touch Senna's actual winning car at the Williams factory - genuinely an emotional moment for me - and I don't usually give a toss about anything like that.
Interestingly, Senna himself rated a relative unknown driver as the best ever - IIRC someone he raced with in karts who is now a motorsport instructor? Quite a compliment to carry around with you.
Even the most unbiased observer would have to admit that 'overrated' is not a description validly applied to Senna.
There is no way he is over rated as a driver - he was incredible. If he had lived then maybe he had at least another two championships in him.
Of course his early death means he is romanticised and has taken on an almost mythical aura - and I am probably as guilty of this as anyone if I am completely honest - but we all need a hero and growing up he was mine.
Sounds a bit poncy but I recently had a chance to touch Senna's actual winning car at the Williams factory - genuinely an emotional moment for me - and I don't usually give a toss about anything like that.
Interestingly, Senna himself rated a relative unknown driver as the best ever - IIRC someone he raced with in karts who is now a motorsport instructor? Quite a compliment to carry around with you.
Even the most unbiased observer would have to admit that 'overrated' is not a description validly applied to Senna.
arollingstone said:
its a wet Saturday afternoon so i've been staring out the window contemplating.
saw the senna doc on tv again last night, and basically i reckon he's over rated as a driver
I know he did a lot of charity work, which is why i say as a driver, so lets leave the rest of that out of this.
good driver of course, but some of the tactics he used to win where not exactly in the best form. Deliberately taking people out (prost) is not going to win you sportsman of the year. Certainly wouldn't have caught Sterling Moss or Fangio doing that.
IMO if you have to crash another man to win instead of racing till the end then your not the "greatest"
flame me if you will.
oh dearsaw the senna doc on tv again last night, and basically i reckon he's over rated as a driver
I know he did a lot of charity work, which is why i say as a driver, so lets leave the rest of that out of this.
good driver of course, but some of the tactics he used to win where not exactly in the best form. Deliberately taking people out (prost) is not going to win you sportsman of the year. Certainly wouldn't have caught Sterling Moss or Fangio doing that.
IMO if you have to crash another man to win instead of racing till the end then your not the "greatest"
flame me if you will.
just totally speechless
ban the OP
Bradgate said:
Senna's tragic death has inevitably led to him being idealised and romanticised.
I watched almost every one of his races. He was not overrated. He was quite obviously the fastest and most talented driver of his generation, but he was also a completely ruthless so-and-so who was prepared to risk the lives of his rivals as well as his own.
His premature death took away the opportunity of watching him fight against Schumacher's challenge.
Schumacher was the first of a new generation of drivers who could drive every corner of every lap of every race flat out. He significantly raised the bar in terms of physical preparation, bringing the fitness levels of a professional athlete to motor racing for the first time. Senna would have had to raise his game to compete. It's a shame that his death robbed us of this contest.
I'd agree with this response, with the footnote that I don't think we'd have seen much competition between Senna and Schumacher as I believe Senna was starting to consider retirement. It may have been frustration with the difficult to drive and uncomfortable Williams, but I think his motivation was starting to fall. He had never been happy with the politics, the FIA, he wasn't happy with the car, he wasn't happy without Prost to beat, he was starting to get worried about safety, then Ratzenburger's tragic accident shook him even more, and faced with the challenge of Schumacher, I think he would have walked away at the end of 94, maybe 95. By that time he'd already had what was a reasonably long career for a driver at the time, most were around the 10 to 12 year mark, even the champions, and that's where Senna was.I watched almost every one of his races. He was not overrated. He was quite obviously the fastest and most talented driver of his generation, but he was also a completely ruthless so-and-so who was prepared to risk the lives of his rivals as well as his own.
His premature death took away the opportunity of watching him fight against Schumacher's challenge.
Schumacher was the first of a new generation of drivers who could drive every corner of every lap of every race flat out. He significantly raised the bar in terms of physical preparation, bringing the fitness levels of a professional athlete to motor racing for the first time. Senna would have had to raise his game to compete. It's a shame that his death robbed us of this contest.
Edited by Bradgate on Saturday 24th November 20:51
If he lost his commitment, he would have been nowhere, and when you start asking the kinds of questions he was, it must be awfully hard to stay committed.
Between he and Prost, I don't think Senna was better, as he was more inclined to sacrifice finishes to greater risk taking, but he was certainly faster, and that's saying something because while Prost was known as the professor, and for winning at the slowest possible speed, as many of his team mates have confirmed, he really was a bloody quick driver even by F1 standards.
Edited by Alfanatic on Sunday 25th November 00:33
My view is that yes, he is over rated.... but not by much.
He was of course amazing, one of the very best ever, but not to the extent that is often thrown around by fans and pundits.
His do or die attitude, his spectacular-ness and breath taking moments made him a great in the legendary showman sense, but possibly lessened his winning potential as a driver.
If there was a dial on his back that we could have turned down from 100% to 98% then I feel he would have had greater success as a result of it. I dont know the facts and figures, but I'm sure that a few more point scoring positions instead of crashes would have added to his championship count.
I feel his legend reflects how truly great he very nearly could have been instead of how very great he actually was in context.
He was of course amazing, one of the very best ever, but not to the extent that is often thrown around by fans and pundits.
His do or die attitude, his spectacular-ness and breath taking moments made him a great in the legendary showman sense, but possibly lessened his winning potential as a driver.
If there was a dial on his back that we could have turned down from 100% to 98% then I feel he would have had greater success as a result of it. I dont know the facts and figures, but I'm sure that a few more point scoring positions instead of crashes would have added to his championship count.
I feel his legend reflects how truly great he very nearly could have been instead of how very great he actually was in context.
shunaphil said:
Whilst it is true that Senna had some flawed aspects to his personality, I have to say as someone who grew up watching him race that his abilities in the car were probably unique - maybe just edged in pure natural talent by Jim Clark.
There is no way he is over rated as a driver - he was incredible. If he had lived then maybe he had at least another two championships in him.
Of course his early death means he is romanticised and has taken on an almost mythical aura - and I am probably as guilty of this as anyone if I am completely honest - but we all need a hero and growing up he was mine.
Sounds a bit poncy but I recently had a chance to touch Senna's actual winning car at the Williams factory - genuinely an emotional moment for me - and I don't usually give a toss about anything like that.
Interestingly, Senna himself rated a relative unknown driver as the best ever - IIRC someone he raced with in karts who is now a motorsport instructor? Quite a compliment to carry around with you.
Even the most unbiased observer would have to admit that 'overrated' is not a description validly applied to Senna.
Which car was that?? He never won in a Williams, Just Lotus an McLaren, and I'm pretty sure McLaren keep theirs.There is no way he is over rated as a driver - he was incredible. If he had lived then maybe he had at least another two championships in him.
Of course his early death means he is romanticised and has taken on an almost mythical aura - and I am probably as guilty of this as anyone if I am completely honest - but we all need a hero and growing up he was mine.
Sounds a bit poncy but I recently had a chance to touch Senna's actual winning car at the Williams factory - genuinely an emotional moment for me - and I don't usually give a toss about anything like that.
Interestingly, Senna himself rated a relative unknown driver as the best ever - IIRC someone he raced with in karts who is now a motorsport instructor? Quite a compliment to carry around with you.
Even the most unbiased observer would have to admit that 'overrated' is not a description validly applied to Senna.
I am genuinely unsure if the OP is trolling or not, but speaking as somebody who has been watching GPs since 1977 I can honestly say I have never seen the like of Donnington '93, EVER.
Less well celebrated but IMO an equally good drive was Australia same year. Senna in qually was on fumes, but he instinctivley knew that he'd hit the sweet spot of car/balance/tyres, the call came in from the Pits to refuel, he simply answered "NO" and went on to do the lap that would stand as pole, against the vastly more powerfull Williams Renaults.
Starting from pole he went on to win from the front, in the dry, on sheer pace, the only time that year the Williams had been beaten that way. I remember Ron Dennis was in tears as he knew better than most what they where losing to Williams the next year. He fully expected (as did I) that Senna would one day return.
Not so spectacular to watch, but to those who knew how much he was wringing out of that car every corner, it was a joy to see, the equal of Donnington in terms of skill/talent, just not as spectacular.
Less well celebrated but IMO an equally good drive was Australia same year. Senna in qually was on fumes, but he instinctivley knew that he'd hit the sweet spot of car/balance/tyres, the call came in from the Pits to refuel, he simply answered "NO" and went on to do the lap that would stand as pole, against the vastly more powerfull Williams Renaults.
Starting from pole he went on to win from the front, in the dry, on sheer pace, the only time that year the Williams had been beaten that way. I remember Ron Dennis was in tears as he knew better than most what they where losing to Williams the next year. He fully expected (as did I) that Senna would one day return.
Not so spectacular to watch, but to those who knew how much he was wringing out of that car every corner, it was a joy to see, the equal of Donnington in terms of skill/talent, just not as spectacular.
Edited by FeelingLucky on Sunday 25th November 02:34
shunaphil said:
Sounds a bit poncy but I recently had a chance to touch Senna's actual winning car at the Williams factory - genuinely an emotional moment for me - and I don't usually give a toss about anything like that.
I ask this question out of genuine interest,but I apologise if I sound like a wannabe sub-editor (not my intention), but do Williams have a Senna exhibition, as he only won in Lotus and McLaren cars?If so, I'd be interested in visiting. The Donington Collection has a fabulous array of his McLarens and a nice memorial if anyone wants to get up close to his history.Redlake27 said:
shunaphil said:
Sounds a bit poncy but I recently had a chance to touch Senna's actual winning car at the Williams factory - genuinely an emotional moment for me - and I don't usually give a toss about anything like that.
I ask this question out of genuine interest,but I apologise if I sound like a wannabe sub-editor (not my intention), but do Williams have a Senna exhibition, as he only won in Lotus and McLaren cars?If so, I'd be interested in visiting. The Donington Collection has a fabulous array of his McLarens and a nice memorial if anyone wants to get up close to his history.The Senna car is on display (along with all the others) at the very impressive Williams Conference Centre, and I was there for an event, which included a cjance to look at the cars. AFAIK its not open to the general public.
Grandad Gaz said:
Have you seen the video of him at Monaco when he was with the Toleman (I think) team?
He came second and would certainly have won if the race had not been stopped due to rain. The Toleman was nowhere near a winning car. A bit like one of the current drivers coming second in a Caterham or HRT today!
What he did that day shows just how good he was.
Dont forget that whilst Senna was catching Prost, the late Stefan Belloff was catching them both hand over fist that day, and but for his tragic mistake at Spa would have gone on to give them both something to think about.He came second and would certainly have won if the race had not been stopped due to rain. The Toleman was nowhere near a winning car. A bit like one of the current drivers coming second in a Caterham or HRT today!
What he did that day shows just how good he was.
Senna was good though
Raw abilty maybe, as a complete package some things not to my taste as noted above. Again as aleady pointed out he wasnt the only one to cheat to win.
Sheer raw abilty, Jim Clarke? That man was like watching a metronome the sign of someone completly in control, Fangio an amazing driver and a complete gentleman, and before my time and certainly most of you on here Tazio Nuvolari.
Different eras so its all just speculation, I am very happy that people dont die racing now, but the old time greats went out and raced knowing that a big crash would kill them. You have to factor that in when comparing across the years.
Sheer raw abilty, Jim Clarke? That man was like watching a metronome the sign of someone completly in control, Fangio an amazing driver and a complete gentleman, and before my time and certainly most of you on here Tazio Nuvolari.
Different eras so its all just speculation, I am very happy that people dont die racing now, but the old time greats went out and raced knowing that a big crash would kill them. You have to factor that in when comparing across the years.
There's no way you can say who was the greatest driver so no one can say if Senna was the greatest or that he wasn't. However, he drove at a time when there were a number of drivers who were quality and he beat them all. Overrated? It depends what you say about him. He was a tremendous entertainer, bringing excitement to a sport that was exciting enough in any case.
I feel honoured to have seen him race. I'd put him above Prost in overall ability, and Piquet as well (who is one of the most underrated WDCs) and he was a more complete driver than any of his contemporaries. Can't say I liked him though. He compromised the reputation of the sport, but then so did Prost, Benetton, MSc and many others so he's hardly unique in that respect.
I thought at one time he was the new Clark but we were soon put right on that aspect.
I saw him in his early years in F1 at Brands. it was the year they put in the speed trap along the top straight. He and Mansell had fun trying to see who could get the highest read-out. it seemed as if fun was making its way back into the sport. How wrong can you be?
I feel honoured to have seen him race. I'd put him above Prost in overall ability, and Piquet as well (who is one of the most underrated WDCs) and he was a more complete driver than any of his contemporaries. Can't say I liked him though. He compromised the reputation of the sport, but then so did Prost, Benetton, MSc and many others so he's hardly unique in that respect.
I thought at one time he was the new Clark but we were soon put right on that aspect.
I saw him in his early years in F1 at Brands. it was the year they put in the speed trap along the top straight. He and Mansell had fun trying to see who could get the highest read-out. it seemed as if fun was making its way back into the sport. How wrong can you be?
Over rated as what?
Over rated as a racing driver?
No.
Over rated as a compasionate man who did a lot for good causes?
No.
Over rated as a person of humility and a sportsman in the Corinthian sense?
No - because nobody ever over rated him as possessing humility or of being a great sportsman.
He was what he was - whether you liked him or not.
Is he over revered? Most definitely yes.
Over rated as a racing driver?
No.
Over rated as a compasionate man who did a lot for good causes?
No.
Over rated as a person of humility and a sportsman in the Corinthian sense?
No - because nobody ever over rated him as possessing humility or of being a great sportsman.
He was what he was - whether you liked him or not.
Is he over revered? Most definitely yes.
Somewhat disappointed to have come across this thread. My Q' to OP is for how long have you been not only following F1, but, how much do you know of F1's Grand Prix racing history, say back to the post war years, the teams, team bosses, the individual drivers, and above all...those who worked within motorsport but not specifically team members?? Judging by your question I'd say not a lot...
...you see in addition to the likes of Moss, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio, Nuvolari, Mansell [yes Mansell!], Lauda, Reuterman, Clark, Stewart, Ireland, Scott-Brown, Fittipaldi et al...there were men who 'knew' the difference between a great F1 driver...and the greatest. If you were to get Murray, DSJ, and Sid Watkins all in the same room at the same time they'd all give you one name...the one who'd have a semi-out-of-body experience when in the zone; Ayrton Senna.
...you see in addition to the likes of Moss, Prost, Schumacher, Fangio, Nuvolari, Mansell [yes Mansell!], Lauda, Reuterman, Clark, Stewart, Ireland, Scott-Brown, Fittipaldi et al...there were men who 'knew' the difference between a great F1 driver...and the greatest. If you were to get Murray, DSJ, and Sid Watkins all in the same room at the same time they'd all give you one name...the one who'd have a semi-out-of-body experience when in the zone; Ayrton Senna.
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